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In quake, weapon cooldowns are constant for each weapon. So with any gun, if you just hold down shoot, you will shoot at constant intervals, and there's no "clip" or need to reload a weapon. Either you have ammo or you don't.
Quake weapon intervals (the cooldown time between each shot):
MG: 100ms
SG: 1000ms
GL: 800ms
RL: 800ms
LG: 50ms
RG: 1500ms
PG: 100ms
"Modern combat" games (counter-strike, BF-series, COD series, etc) usually have weapons that require a reload operation at some point.
The "skill ceiling" so to speak of some of the projectile based weapons in quake feels nearly infinite. The combination of projectile speeds, map sizes/layouts, player speed and weapon cooldown time really pushes the limits of what is possible with human reaction times in RL fights. It simply never gets old to watch OR to play. If you get a good bounce off of a rocket, often times the best followup is to shoot ASAP after the cooldown, because with practice, you're going to land additional shots very well. By estimating where they're going to land coming down from the bounce, you try to shoot at the center of that, and you have a) guaranteed damage and b) a good chance of getting another bounce.
Hell, even with the hitscan weapons the limits of human reactions are constantly pushed. I've seen tons of these tournament TDM games where in extremely up close fights, a player will completely dodge 3 SG shots in a row, taking zero damage. Dodge is such a huge part of what makes quake amazing!
(I swear I'm getting close to making my point and detailing my suggestion, but let me build up a little more first).
Each weapon in quake is useful in different scenarios. In game modes like Clan Arena, the LG is abused quite heavily, because it's basically GUARANTEED damage. In an up close fight, does the RL have the potential to be more effective? Definitely, but only if you're rockets are good, which takes years of practice to get to a high level. The lg has less potential usefullness in those up close fights, but it's still guaranteed damage over time, whereas the RL might be more of a risk. All of these things are great and add to the depth of the equation that makes quake the king of FPS.
What I think could be extremely interesting, and add even more to this kind of depth, would be a sort of mix between constant weapon cooldown times and the "clip/reload" model used in games like counter-strike (how you implement it in the UI isn't so that important really, just the timings would matter, but I think a reload animation would be great). So take a weapon like RL, and try the following:
- Reduce max damage 50% (50 instead of 100 for a direct)
- Decrease cooldown 50% (400ms instead of 800ms)
- Maybe toy with the speed of rockets a bit (probably to slow them down, you'll see why in a sec)
- Allow 3 shots at the 400ms cooldown rate before a "reload" is required, which takes between 1000ms and 1500ms.
I feel like the "damage potential" would be about equal, but it's just spread out a little differently in a way that would let people toy with their enemies even more. It MIGHT "noob it up" a little bit by making at least SOME damage more of a guarantee (similar to the RL/LG explanation above), but I still think it would be a lot more interesting.
You could do something quite similar with rails. In QL a rail does 80 damage and has a 1500ms cooldown. The following could be quite interesting:
- reduce damage 50% (40 instead of 80)
- reduce cooldown to 300 or 400ms
- clipsize 2
- 1500ms "clip reload" time
So you'd be able to rapidly fire TWO shots. If you hit both, you get the full 80 damage. This would change the dynamic of "rail fights" where both players stand their ground and continue to try and exchange rails in a civil war fashion. It also DRASTICALLY changes duel. Thinking about ZTN in QL, there are so many places you have enough time to land a SINGLE rail (exit damage, etc), but not 2. This could actually be a pretty bad negative side effect, and might require more tweaking and testing to see if this "short cooldown, small clipsize, long reload" model could work. It could also be a very positive change. QL duel is very +back, whereas I understand CPMA was more about being very +forward. If you only have time to land 1 rail, then you wouldn't be able to constantly cripple your opponent and maintain complete map dominance just by hitting a rail every time they pick up a YA. I think this change would be really interesting in team modes too, where you could rapidly fire 2 rails, and possibly hit 2 different opponents. Also, hitting rails on people in the air (RJ, jump pad, etc), they would now get twice the knockback, which I think would be fun.
This could be done for all guns, or just some. I like the idea of a very fast 2-shot burst GL, with a twice as long reload time to compensate (and to keep spam reasonable). Guns like MG,SG,PG and LG I'd leave alone, but you never know what changes you can make. Also I'm not asking that reborn be a Q3/QL clone when it comes to the weapons, I'm just using QL weapons as an example. Though I think you can't go wrong with the RL/RG/LG trifecta :D
I know there is a lot of elitism in quake. A lot of this "useless until used in a dreamhack 1v1 duel final vs cypher tied overtime game last second FTW" mentality, but I don't want fear of elitist butthurt to stop people from contributing ideas. If 2GD is going to deliver on Reborn, let's get our ideas heard! You never know what new dynamics are going to create a perfect balance between fun and competitive. QW, Q2, Q3 and CPMA have great formulas for balance fun and competition, but they aren't the only ones.
I hope Reborn is going good! Can't wait to see some footage!
Quake weapon intervals (the cooldown time between each shot):
MG: 100ms
SG: 1000ms
GL: 800ms
RL: 800ms
LG: 50ms
RG: 1500ms
PG: 100ms
"Modern combat" games (counter-strike, BF-series, COD series, etc) usually have weapons that require a reload operation at some point.
The "skill ceiling" so to speak of some of the projectile based weapons in quake feels nearly infinite. The combination of projectile speeds, map sizes/layouts, player speed and weapon cooldown time really pushes the limits of what is possible with human reaction times in RL fights. It simply never gets old to watch OR to play. If you get a good bounce off of a rocket, often times the best followup is to shoot ASAP after the cooldown, because with practice, you're going to land additional shots very well. By estimating where they're going to land coming down from the bounce, you try to shoot at the center of that, and you have a) guaranteed damage and b) a good chance of getting another bounce.
Hell, even with the hitscan weapons the limits of human reactions are constantly pushed. I've seen tons of these tournament TDM games where in extremely up close fights, a player will completely dodge 3 SG shots in a row, taking zero damage. Dodge is such a huge part of what makes quake amazing!
(I swear I'm getting close to making my point and detailing my suggestion, but let me build up a little more first).
Each weapon in quake is useful in different scenarios. In game modes like Clan Arena, the LG is abused quite heavily, because it's basically GUARANTEED damage. In an up close fight, does the RL have the potential to be more effective? Definitely, but only if you're rockets are good, which takes years of practice to get to a high level. The lg has less potential usefullness in those up close fights, but it's still guaranteed damage over time, whereas the RL might be more of a risk. All of these things are great and add to the depth of the equation that makes quake the king of FPS.
What I think could be extremely interesting, and add even more to this kind of depth, would be a sort of mix between constant weapon cooldown times and the "clip/reload" model used in games like counter-strike (how you implement it in the UI isn't so that important really, just the timings would matter, but I think a reload animation would be great). So take a weapon like RL, and try the following:
- Reduce max damage 50% (50 instead of 100 for a direct)
- Decrease cooldown 50% (400ms instead of 800ms)
- Maybe toy with the speed of rockets a bit (probably to slow them down, you'll see why in a sec)
- Allow 3 shots at the 400ms cooldown rate before a "reload" is required, which takes between 1000ms and 1500ms.
I feel like the "damage potential" would be about equal, but it's just spread out a little differently in a way that would let people toy with their enemies even more. It MIGHT "noob it up" a little bit by making at least SOME damage more of a guarantee (similar to the RL/LG explanation above), but I still think it would be a lot more interesting.
You could do something quite similar with rails. In QL a rail does 80 damage and has a 1500ms cooldown. The following could be quite interesting:
- reduce damage 50% (40 instead of 80)
- reduce cooldown to 300 or 400ms
- clipsize 2
- 1500ms "clip reload" time
So you'd be able to rapidly fire TWO shots. If you hit both, you get the full 80 damage. This would change the dynamic of "rail fights" where both players stand their ground and continue to try and exchange rails in a civil war fashion. It also DRASTICALLY changes duel. Thinking about ZTN in QL, there are so many places you have enough time to land a SINGLE rail (exit damage, etc), but not 2. This could actually be a pretty bad negative side effect, and might require more tweaking and testing to see if this "short cooldown, small clipsize, long reload" model could work. It could also be a very positive change. QL duel is very +back, whereas I understand CPMA was more about being very +forward. If you only have time to land 1 rail, then you wouldn't be able to constantly cripple your opponent and maintain complete map dominance just by hitting a rail every time they pick up a YA. I think this change would be really interesting in team modes too, where you could rapidly fire 2 rails, and possibly hit 2 different opponents. Also, hitting rails on people in the air (RJ, jump pad, etc), they would now get twice the knockback, which I think would be fun.
This could be done for all guns, or just some. I like the idea of a very fast 2-shot burst GL, with a twice as long reload time to compensate (and to keep spam reasonable). Guns like MG,SG,PG and LG I'd leave alone, but you never know what changes you can make. Also I'm not asking that reborn be a Q3/QL clone when it comes to the weapons, I'm just using QL weapons as an example. Though I think you can't go wrong with the RL/RG/LG trifecta :D
I know there is a lot of elitism in quake. A lot of this "useless until used in a dreamhack 1v1 duel final vs cypher tied overtime game last second FTW" mentality, but I don't want fear of elitist butthurt to stop people from contributing ideas. If 2GD is going to deliver on Reborn, let's get our ideas heard! You never know what new dynamics are going to create a perfect balance between fun and competitive. QW, Q2, Q3 and CPMA have great formulas for balance fun and competition, but they aren't the only ones.
I hope Reborn is going good! Can't wait to see some footage!
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