Posted by nineX @ 23:55 CDT, 19 September 2014 - iMsg
The Kickstarter campaign to fund development of the FPS game Reflex, developed by Turbo Pixel, is now up and running. While not only providing would-be backers and deathmatch fans with a quite a bit of standard information about the upcoming game, the page lists some very interesting previously-unreleased hints about gamemodes, match making and customization features.
In addition, the project is providing some very intriguing pledge reward tiers, ranging from a copy of the game to custom player and weapon models of your choice. Head over to the Reflex Kickstarter page now, and help the project reach it's goal.
It's a years wage for 3 developers (with minor paycuts from what we're making now) + money for contract work such as animation, concept art, boring lawyer stuff + tax/fees/etc.
It's a lot, but it's what it will cost to do the game properly -- we've taken it as far as we can developing out of hours using my now-entirely-depleted savings.
You should use the community as much as you can though, i think are tons of talented ppl willing to do for a considerable lower cost or even free.
I could even consider doing some animation for you on my free time.
I donated. However, I would like to hear your thoughts in case the kickstarter goal is not reached. Lets say you reach the halfway mark, would you abandon the project altogether or release the source code of prototype game / alpha whatever is made till that point to the community so that someone can continue if he is willing to work for free ?
I'd say the opposite, 360k is not much for the ambition of this project. It's not a game with broad appeal so they need to get decent enough funding from the community without going to an outside investor or publisher who'd influence the design of the game.
I don't think this offers any hope because there's nothing interesting in this game for anyone except 17 promode players. You have to realize that even most of quake players don't care about most of the features emphasized in the trailer, and for anyone outside of arena fps they simply mean nothing and they don't understand why this game might be cool.
Agreed, it looks great and they know all of the right features to put into the game. Gameplay-wise i just can't get excited for a CPM replica. If i wanted CPM gameplay i would play CPM.
if you wanted the genre to make a step forward upon modern gaming you'd be exited and you'd support this even if this gameplay doesn't fit 100% to what you have in mind about deathmatch.
such bias towards CPM, 17 players, u can rush constantly, it's no brain, it needs new maps (when ql didn't have ztn i remember the shitstorm it created), etc...
What you guys don't understand is that it could be fun for the average gamer too, more than any other arena FPS. I been 'experimenting' with two guys from LoL who are my friends. I showed reflex to them, I DIDN'T TELL THEM TO PLAY CPM, we started with reflex at my place with some tutorial rooms I made, very simple, so they understood how to move with the elements of the map. After that they were inside real maps and they understood that to move between chambers and levels you can use different structures of the map.
Without even mentioning circlejump and stairjump they already thought it was fun because it was simple.They were like, woah no games does this, it's nice ! Then i was like, actually there's an underground q3 mod called cpm... They started playing it and they thought it was great.
The circlejump and strafejump techniques were harder to explain and to polish for them, they need proper coordination and understanding of this "phenomena".
Anyway, after 3 weeks of occasional prac games with only some basic tutorials here is what you get from first timer cpmers, they even pull off tricks midgame (sometimes :D)
- noticed that a lot of the shit talk is coming from bad ql players(hitsu, wormed, etc)
they're probably afraid they'll get left behind even more, but in reality they'd be getting a 2nd chance. i've known a few bad vq3 players who turned into decent cpmers because the playstyle suited them much better. no reason why it couldn't happen to these baddies in reflex
nice video, btw
Edited by Shin-obi at 16:21 CDT, 20 September 2014
Uhhh, I haven't shit talk the game? I pledged for it. However, I did say I feel 360 grand is a lofty goal and I'm not sure it'll make it. Sorry for living in some semblance of reality.
EDIT: Also, what denotes bad? I was never great as I never put time to Quake, really, but I wasn't awful. Damn. Meanie.
Im cheering for Reflex, but so far Toxikk is much more developed already and its gonna come out eventually (soon enough), but for Reflex we actually dont know whats gonna happen, just keep in mind that. Didnt know the Germany part, good stuff.
I just said that I would donate more for a proper linux client (up to date, optimized, works on ati/nvidia/intel, no wrapper crap etc), but if they deliver that for free, even better.
It's not "free", it's just already part of the funding goal. Also, if we didn't plan to keep it up to date, optimized and just as good across all platforms, we wouldn't be doing it at all. ;)
Maybe that's what you hear them talk about because there's no point in randomly striking up a conversation about how they appreciate linux. People generally don't care, and linux users are used to it.
Well if they did not use linux then they would most likely not whine about "shit that can't (be) run (on it)" as it would not affect them. I am glad that I could solve this riddle for you and clear up your confusion.
Their point is that they believe their operating system of choice is superior in pretty much every other aspect except for gaming. This means that if all games were Linux compatible, they wouldn't complain about anything.
The only reason I currently use Windows is because the games I want to play do not have Linux support, and I'm too lazy to dual boot.
pfft, i'll be going back to quakeworld.
no worries from me here
even if reflex doesnt turn out how i want, i hope it gets funded.
never seen such a down to earth developer like newborn, he totally deserves it. he's the anti-arqon, if u will ;p
Edited by Shin-obi at 01:07 CDT, 20 September 2014
Yeah. there's like a 1% chance they they will get whole 360k AUD within a month, Otherwise a project gets cancelled and noone will get charged. It's stupid to only rely on kickstarter to launch the game(which will not be free-to-play anyway)
If this fails I dont think they will have any trouble getting this greenlit and using steam early access. Project Nex has been greenlit and while I think it looks cool, it doesnt have nearly the amount of following reflex does.
Funding the KS would be spot on, but they definitely arent out of options if it fails. Lets hope it doesnt though
i doubt that they would just ditch the project, but this kickstarter might decide whether it becomes serious and ambitious or just stays a hobby for them (or they try to find other ways to pledge money :P)
Pretty much. We can't keep putting in 4+ hours a night after our day jobs and draining my bank account of every penny to pay for contract work BUT we're not going to just abandon the project.
IMO seems utopian. They are asking for huge amount of money and did not yet show any single high quality map or at least in-game environment so their backers could see how game will actually look like
IMO they have to show more and ask less
Yeh because building your own game engine from scratch, creating models, sound and particle effects, a physics and movement system, and a real time in game level editor, all in your spare time while you're trying to make a living is nothing isn't it? Also staying true to your word and diplomatic as an ambassador for your project for ~18 months while trying to serve a community of which a significant portion like to shit down your throat as soon as you open your mouth.
You'll be able to get your hands on it long before then (especially as a KS backer). The 2 year estimate is for the final game -- the point where we could call it "done" (but probably won't, because there's always stuff we'll be able to add and improve).
Shovel Knight shared a 100% transparent story of economics in indie game development. This is what the kickstarter money goes to. You can't expect them to show stuff that costs money before they have money, lol!
I know its probably a dumb question, but does backing at alpha stage for example give you access to beta too or just alpha and you have to pay again for beta?
All the Devs i have seen in mIRC have been amazing answering all random questions from big to small, the same ones pop up and they give it there all each time.
tbh. I think its just too many different subscription types ...
final game
beta
alpha
prototype ...
why should I pay so much more for beta when the final game is out 3 months after ...
tbh. noone really knows what this final/beta/alpha/prototype stuff is about, you should just make two versions:
game with beta access ...
game with prototype access ...
as a backer it should be normal to have beta-access imho. ...
I wish I had the resources to help. :/
What's your position about additional help in dev ?
By the way, I've always been skeptic about games re-using/re-producing gamous maps from others games. The Kickstarter page shows cpm3a and cpm1a at least (can't recognize the third one). I believe it is to keep a part of "known" in a new game so the players can have something they know to not be afraid of new maps, but I'm not sure that's smart:
- Not really ethical, degrades a bit the brand image (stealing content/ideas, lack of creativity)
- Many players will be stuck on the maps they will know in the new games and will have troubles to learn new ones (look Counter Strike, that's really to really integrate a new map, the same ones have been played for 5+ years)
- The game loses a part of its identity. Player models and maps are, I think, the main identity of a game. I you reuse maps from famous others games, what do you have left ?
- Players on known maps will have requirements on them, will often want to have if possible an exact copy of it so they can continue to do the same jumps, same cycles, have the same angles etc.
- If the game is supposed to give a new breath to real fast-FPS, we have to move on, which means having a fresh start, not getting stuck into memories of the previous games ==> 100% new content
If you want to talk to me personnaly, newborn, I guess you can find my email in a discussion we had about CPMA Dev and your project.
<newborn> old maps are desirable during early dev because they get us up and running quickly and provide a good way of testing movement and gameplay changes
im really interested in how the project will end up but im not yet convinced to back it.
the movement looks to similar to cpm for me, we havent seen much in terms of weapons, the long list of features reads well but who knows if they can pull it off and deliver most of it in time. the business model is a bit of a wildcard to me, steam workshop integration / cosmetics economy + up-front price. might be a good idea to deliver a "finished" product to people for a fixed prize and then allow a continuous cashflow for various parties through the steam market. but then again it might limit the potential playerbase too much and a end up with a hardcore community that doesnt end up buying all that much.
in any case, i wish the devs good luck and hope for a great game.
Wanted to pledge, but have no CC. Will wait for the PayPal option to arrive. Nice environmental themes, makes playing the same maps a bit less dull, gfx-wise. Also like that stripped down competitive look ala Portal. Will those exclusive skins be client-side (only visible to you?) or can everyone see those? The latter, right?
By the way, it's a bit unfortunate about the timings, you see, if I back $80 AUD then only in december I can try it (I can't give more for now), and being on www.nofrag.com I can make a thread to tell them how the game is right now, I know many people there are old school UT/Quake players, even right now I see in the comments people interested and backed, but I know that "first impressions" threads help a lot more in that community, but next month nobody there or in other communities will have more personal details about Reflex...
Now I'm not really keen about funding, but didn't Star Citizen have many campaigns? Well yes they did obviously ROFL and it's insane how much money they keep getting, but my point is, can't you guys launch another funding campaign in January or something, after people who tried the Prototype can give their impressions?
I never buy or fund incomplete games neither in steam or somewhere also. If you want to make a game get a sponsor first. It is not fair to have an idea and then get some free money to invest with no risk. If the project fails the people who donated lose what they put in and if the project is a success you can make lots of money without having invested a penny. From the guys who make the game its a win win situation.
I am not saying that its the same situation here, since the guy has been investing his money. However before any part of the project begins you first need a sponsor who is willing to risk his/her money. If the idea works out investment will pay off.
The customer on the other hand should pay for nothing but the full product upon release. Thats the only way it is ethical.
I dont support any kickstarters or paying for incomplete games. From a business prespective you are a complete sucker if you do not evaluate what you get for the money you spent. If you want my money as a consumer you better be giving me a good product. If you want me to br your investor I want profit if the project is a success, I am risking my money it is only logical.
Kickstarters are donations for projects that realistically can't be funded by conventional means, at least in this stage. You are not buying the game (not a consumer), you are not an investor in it (no profit) and reflex is not viable enough to be funded by investors or sponsors.
Lots of projects have been funded this way, not only of releasing videogames, that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for kickstarter. That includes the oculus rift, the megaman revival, star citizen (the new wing commander. $48 millions so far), project cars, the pebble watch (this initiated a whole upcoming consumer trend), consumer grade 3d printers (literally the future), the ouya (raised consumer awareness), pono (like it or not that device is the bastion to stop shitty mixed music altogether), movies and series (omg blue mountain state movie) and a really long etc.
I'd have loved that kickstarter had existed 20 years ago.
And remember this is not necessarily the only way they will get funded. It's only a kick start after all, so can always get other means after, and if it fails (like it will) they might try again.
Edited by megaman3 at 11:55 CDT, 20 September 2014
It's like if romero and the rest decided to do a quake1 sequel, just without the name.
edit: just read the whole campaign. That's how things are done: it gives you chills just to read the names and how comprehensive the planning and info is.
Edited by megaman3 at 13:13 CDT, 20 September 2014
Living in the south of England, not that many, well actually depends on how you want to feed them, but yeah spending 80Ł on food isn't really that big of a family shopping trip in a week.
Hard to have your own personal cash flow dry up, as life comes first, so put it on hold. Until the right time.
kickstarts to me seem a little underhand, like doing charity sponsor runs, and keeping the money for yourself.
They might be a money spinner campaign for extra perks, but seems wrong imo. maybe a better accountant and some alternative business advice is needed, there are so many other options to getting the money and marketing of it right, at the "right time" Time can help you :) Let others fail first.
We would have to put it on hold for a very long time before my personal income could cover 1+ year of fulltime development for a team ;)
If you're not comfortable with Kickstarter, by all means, don't back the project -- we won't hold it against you. But for us, this is the way forward that allows us to concentrate on the game development for 8+ hours a day, keep the creative control needed to make the game we want to make and funnel profits back in to development and community support.
Do you think I would be posting here, wasting my time, if I wasn't interested? or hit the +'s etc. Especially as some other idiots have screwed up JC's baby / beautiful initial creation. (the first are usually the best, if you have all the skills & it's done right)
I love the project, and the concept, like many other concepts. I want to try it out as it does look like fun. Provided it does some of the stuff you say "development and community support". I also have a conceptual idea for a game, like many others have, but n1 to put your balls on the block & putting it together.
It's good to see different options and game titles, not saying its going to be good or bad at this stage, until you actually play the game, as how can you tell..
doesn't kickstarter only pay when you hit your goal? What % cut do kickstarter get?
I admire what you have done so far, with your personal effort and money, not to mention balancing it with real life, work & relationships, as I know how destructive a bad balance can be.
I don't see a reason not to use kickstarter as "a" method used to get the funding. But hopefully not as a "sole" method of investment and backing in the interim. "Don't leave it in someone else's hands, forge your destiny". Which I am sure you know.
I don't agree with millions being spent on some projects, where this could have been spent on something more constructive for peoples "life or death" situations. But that is a bigger global picture of uneven wealth distribution.
Hard to get the backing from investors, when the concept is there, but the proof is in the pudding for most companies, i.e. track record. So to get to that stage or marketability, since you are straining / draining the resource pool & the cash flow. Perhaps alternative methods of cash generation are needed. (and I'm not talking about UV lamps and vegetation :P)
The post I deleted re alternative cash flow management, might be an alternative in the mean time, of getting some cash flow. Or use creative financial generating methods for cash flow. Not just kick-starter future money. But I am sure you know what you are doing.
Its a hard balance you have to manage, and yes, that sort of personal / required money is sole destroying, if you are unable to maximise your dreams and vision of the goal, without it (money). (been there done that)
I hope it succeeds, just for the hours guys that have been put in.
ps. some people have been saying that this is so much better than reload, then changing their opinions when they hear someone else backing reload, and vice versa. swing, swing, swing, schwing, Just generally swinging with the consensus to be popular :) Fingers crossed you can get to the stage of competing 1v1 titlevtitle or titlesvtitles in the marketplace :).
i haven't paid attention to Reflex before. had the impression it's just another derrivative Quake-clone, but i have to admit that trailer was pretty sick!
Defrag/Race mode is planned and has actually been planned since Reflex was just a bunch of ideas on paper. I'm actually the one who suggested a Race style mode to Syncerror in the first place ;)
Go ahead and waste your money :) Even tho 2gd has som mmo shit planed for reborn i much rather see the donations going his way. 250k for a new cpma mod ....gg
Oh my god, what is wrong with you people? The visually most appealing and most feature complete quake-like Arena shooter there has ever been so far is being developed right now and you talk shit about it because people can turn in midair and switch weapons faster? Do you not realize that this is one of the biggest chances the subgenre is ever gonna get to attract a larger audience? How many times do you have to get dropped on your head as a baby to think like this?
As i said ,reborn is a safer bet if you cant understand that your retarded!
And who the fuck cares about visuals .....oh thats right,12 year old cod kids.
The movement style is the worst thing about it you noaim defrag fruit shitface ass ! :P
Tbh visuals are just a bonus, it’s the: attitude, (almost all of the) decision making and passion of the developers that’s the best part of this.
But unfortunately, while I can enjoy a game now and then the “turn in midair and switch weapons faster“ and its impact on the game is a deal breaker for me. Again such a shame.
This never was a chance to attract any audience, since it's only targeted to existing hardcore quakers. All promotion materials, videos, etc use terms and emphasize points that only existing hardcore players can understand and any outsider still has no idea what this game is and why it is cool.
Are you talking about the legality of the whole thing?
I'm not sure if it's possible to claim copyright on a game mechanic, unless you explicitly put it on a patent. (iirc this happened once in the entire history of videogaming. square enix hold a patent to FFX's spherogrid) See this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_clone#Legal_aspects
I'm not sure that they will actually put the old maps into the game. Similar to the game footage they are only to show proof of concepts. Also, did the creators of UseandAbuse/Wicked give over copyrights to id when the maps were implemented in QL?
"Use and abuse" is cpm3 and id got permission from Jude (author of cpm1 and cpm3) to use it in QL - its not their map, it was first released as part of CPMA. Surely Reflex got permission from Jude too. Same for cpm1 (Wicked).
id Software sought the creator of the map then agreed for a contract to be signed and payment made. These maps are now the ownership of id Software. I believe cpm or other games can use them non-commercially (but not the textures).
Well the grenade launcher, ion cannon, rocket launcher and shotgun are all different from Q3/QL as far as things like damage, knockback, range, reload etc are concerned. Our plasma gun is currently similar to the heavy machine gun to, but it was like that for about 4 months before anyone knew about the QL update ;). We've also got a couple of weapons that are completely unlike anything that's been in any Quake game but since they're both low tier, they didn't appear too much in the trailer.
All of the CPMA maps that got brought over to QuakeLive are licensed to idsoft non-exclusively and we have full permission from the authors to use them.
Throwing around words like "stolen" doesn't really get the scene anywhere. Were the brightskins, netcode improvements, scoreboards, voting, cpma maps, weapon changes, bug fixes etc "stolen" from CPMA by QuakeLive?
We're all part of the same scene with a lot of overlap in the playerbase. These players are going to want the features they're used to in whatever games they play and simply labeling things as "clones" is a terrible way of looking at it. Reflex gets called a CPMA clone. QuakeLive got called a straight Q3 clone in a web browser. CPMA got called a QW clone because it had air control. Just writing off all of these games based on some shared features does them all a huge disservice and completely ignores the many changes and improvements each brought to the genre.
Thanks,
I think you took 'stolen' a bit too seriously, but 'borrowed' just didn't seem to fit.
That is why I posted on esr instead of kickstarter though.
It's looking good and quite frankly Id rather support some new game developers than a giant corperation like Zenimax. We all know the direction id software is going.
QL is aiming for the casual school boy looking to waste a few minutes playing a casual deathmatch before he updates his facebook.
Reborn is dead. No updates, nothing, 2bd, took 2lng, lost interest.
These guys seem to at least be interested in the damn genre. More than can be said for the likes of sponge and 2gd.
Holy crap, this project is awesome. I am one of the few lucky ones to have received a pre-alpha build, and I will be streaming this today (sunday) at noon CST (19:00 CET)
I really hope this game goes well because I wouldn't mind having a second shortcut to another FPS game (still love Reborn more)...but I still feel weird about it copying the entire CPM movement. I seriously hope it bcomes a heavily modified version of CPM movement where its different enough to stand out as original but still have the core idea of air control and shit. Also ..hold space to move around ! (for non cpm players / newbies)
Sorry to be negative, but realistically I don't think this kickstarter thing is going to succed: a 320 000 $ goal means that 3000+ should pledge like 100 $ and this is not going to happen for an unknown and niche game like this one.
That said I hope i'll be proven wrong and I'll pledge some anyway because I like the concept of the game.
Hopefully you can get some coverage on the big gaming sites. Gamespot had some footage of that Toxikk (spelling?) fps on their YouTube channel the other day. Would be nice to get the Reflex trailer on there.
I think the goal is too high, needs to go viral or something to succeed unfortunately. Anyway I still pledged a fair amount and hope the best for this game.
Hope they will somehow manage to draw more attention to the project, cause at the current rate it seems questionable wether they'll reach their goal in time.
they need to show off the map making stuff more. watching voo streaming his map build convinced me to pledge for the prototype which is my first and probably last kickstarter pledge
Having seen the changes to quakelive I gotta admit this looks like the only thing that comes close to offering the next fix.
My only critique in an otherwise slick video is you didn't show any finished environments, or convey the engine has the power to create the environments required for a next gen game in terms of tools and rendering.
If 15 years down the line from promode all you got is promode with less features, specular, bump maps and some fancy particle effects it could be gg.
There is no reason everyone shouldn't back this. The FPS scene needs something new. Put up some cash and if the target doesn't get met, you don't lose anything. If the target does get met then everything gets done properly. It is win-win as long as everyone steps up.
The gameplay/weapons/maps are not defined yet. Currently the gameplay content looks like existing Q3/QL/CPMA etc to have a quick base to work with. Once the engine has been developped the gameplay will be built and will or not be similar/same/completly different. Don't juge so fast.
And if they achieve all their goals, the whole game will be more mature that what QL currently is. All what QL really has is money, pro/casual players and some medium/minor competitions because there already is a competitive scene.
Now multiplayers games and FPS evolved onto community based content/activities, ladders. Many things to keep casual interested all while proposing options for skilled players (while QL has premium for "skilled" ones and some pub servers for the casuals, no real access to competitive content for a lower skill).
And honnestly, about stealing/buying content, QL has done much worse than this, and not on a pre-alpha version. ;)
I believe in Reflex and I will back them some 100 $
Was reading some bios of one of the developers. A recomendation for a former manage at a rather big game production company:
"Ben has the broadest skillset of any artist I know. He is an accomplished Environment modeller, character modeller, technical artist, coder and shader writer. His has a complete grasp of the entire art pipeline and his work in all areas is consistently excellent."
yes like the 2nd one he linked, peter molyneux 'godus' :D people expected to fund something like Populous or Dungeon Keeper and what did they get? a poor mobile game with the niveau of a facebook app without story nor real gameplay where all you effectivly do is spam "click" and wait wait wait.
or lets take "Spacebase DF-9" as such an example.. funded with more than 400k$ from indiego and steam early access the game never passed alpha status. the developers have now officially given up and moved the game to open source "we aint doing it anymore, but you can!" status.
ive been buttkicked likewise when i bought 2 early access titles after they promised initial release native linux support. guess what never happened? they just did that to grab some extra cash. the whole crowdfuning concept is like communism - awesome in theory, miserably failing in reality due to human nature. i dont doubt that there are good developers out there that seriously need this and are willing to keep their promises in return, but there are also those who go full yolo mode after they got the money. instead of delivering they just jump onto the next crowdfunding hypetrain to get fresh $ for nothing again.
Exactly. F2P (mostly), EA and KS are pretty much pure shit and bad deals for consumers. It took us a while but most of us have been burned by now so we've caught on. The Reflex KS campaign is also doing itself no favors with few updates and little solid information other than feature lists.
I sure hope some millionare comes in and throws 100-200k at it just because he can. It seems to be the only thing that can make this go to 360k at this speed...
has anyone told Notch about this game yet? He loves everything Quake!
Or at least Jeb? Jeb's the current Minecraft lead developer and did at some point work with the CPMA team (was named "Khaile" back then). He surely has some money up his sleeve :)
Convince these two guys and Reflex is going to reach that goal.
If you can generate procedural levels with those building 'blocks' ala minecraft with rocket launchers, strafejumping and some air control it would be the best fucking FFA game ever :D
Is it going to have a proper level-editor or is it just going to be a minecraft type-of-thing? Becouse I really want to map for this game. Cant bother without a proper map-editor tough.