Game development is always iterative. You do a first pass, you tweak some stuff, you implement some new things, you tweak everything again, etc. Gameplay is no exception to this. This is why the CPMA changelog is 4500 lines, split into 100+ releases that span a decade.
During that time, we also saw plenty of people who "haven't touched the game since X" because the developers "fucked it up" for "no reason".
This included things like making the physics no longer FPS-dependant, reducing the railgun damage to 80 and plenty of other things that were supposed to be the death of the game but overwhelmingly resulted in far better gameplay in the long run.
If you want an exact match for CPMA, just play CPMA. Reflex is going to be testing, tweaking and changing things to make a better game and that's not something you can just magically do in a single release.
groups tend to make better decisions than individuals
And the gameplay is not (and should not be) 1:1 clone of CPM.
history shows that they've delivered. Over and over again.
There's a clear x -> y -> z here
They made gameplay changes in 1.0
Let's assume you are 100% correct. The devs do not understand gameplay, they have no interest in new mechanics or trying anything new, they do not try enough or care enough to make Reflex a better game, then why should anyone support/play Reflex?
Here's a very simple metric: If these posts are getting plussed by xerosawyer, who has very little love for Reflex (to put it mildly), then what does that say about the content of these posts?
In that case, people shouldn't.
That's a simple metric indeed, and also a nonsense one. Why should someone plussing posts have anything to do with the credence of the posts? Do the arguments or points in them become less valid or based in reality because a person has decided to plus them, completely outside of the control of the poster?
You are not posting what you are for the benefit of Reflex. You're saying, quite clearly, do not play Reflex. Do not support Reflex. I think that's the clearest it's going to get that you're shitposting about Reflex.
Are you serious? You give me a hypothetical situation where the devs are incompetent, unwilling, and uncaring, in other words want to make NO progress/improvement on the game at all.
I am NOT saying don't play Reflex, if people want to play Reflex go ahead. Same goes for any game really, why would I be opposed to people playing Reflex? How is making maps for the game (that are quite well liked) and making fragmovies with a decent amount of views not supporting the game? How am I telling people to not support Reflex? How is anything I'm doing shitposting? You're the one posting fallacious metrics...
1) You did say they did not try. But you see I'm at a disadvantage because I'm replying to you, Pill, ix, and others in this thread. It's because I said some positive things about Reflex. Those cannot go unrebutted apparently.
It definitely seems like it. I've replied to like 12 different replies to you about Reflex. In the past couple months, I've replied in a few other threads about various things, but anytime I say something about Reflex, I know I'll get a reply from you, Pill, or someone else with a laundry list of criticisms and complaints.
4) So CPMA can make experimental changes well after 1.0. The best time to do that, according to you, would be before 1.0. But after 1.0, it's okay -- as long as it turns out well in the end. Whether the devs experimented before or after 1.0 is not really a big deal.
I'll ask again: Would it be right to criticize the CPMA team for not trying after CPMA went 1.0 in 2000? Your whole case is predicated on this notion that Reflex will NOT improve.
Did CPMA improve after 2000? Were lessons learned along the way? Or did Hoony go from CPMA 0.1 to 1.43 in 1 day because there's some magic, secret formula?
Furthermore, what kind of "promise" is made like that? A promise made in private or during unofficial conversation over Discord?
What they are thinking is irrelevant. Happy, nice, progressive thoughts don't get me much, should I praise them for thinking nice things? I'll judge them by their actions, and thus far I haven't seen many progressive actions gameplay wise.
Well, no.. my case is that they did not make enough gameplay changes to make the game stand out as something new, something different. The changes they did make, made the game less enjoyable for me than CPM. I do think they missed an opportunity in trying out more experimental stuff now that it's out of beta.
What they are thinking is absolutely relevant because you're making these claims about their intentions. How can you say they "don't care" or "don't try" and then say what they're thinking is irrelevant? Since when is "caring" and "trying" independent to thinking? Does your toaster "care" about toasting bread? Does it "try" to toast the bread?
Also, this comment by you comes off sounding incredibly selfish and childish: their "thoughts don't get me much, should I praise them". What do they owe to you? Is this all about satisfying what Terifire wants? You paid how much for Reflex? How many hours did you play before you decided to go back to CPM? You're acting like the devs should be groveling for your approval with this statement.
Is this all about satisfying what Terifire wants?
You're acting like the devs should be groveling for your approval with this statement.
There's a couple other folks that are willing to defend the Reflex devs on ESR but mostly it's a "let's shit on Reflex" party on these forums. Do you see me going to CPM threads and shitting on CPM?
CPMA 1.0 in 2000. Did that stop the CPMA team from experimenting? Unequiovocally, no. It did not. And there is nothing stopping it from happening.
Apparently so since CPMA is back under development and may have walljumps and other highly experimental gameplay changes that no one has seen before.
I am not making claims about their intentions, I am also not saying they don't care. I am saying they haven't tried to experiment with gameplay enough. If only it were so simple as your weird toaster analogy. No, my toaster does not care or try, but hey, it toasts bread, if only game development was that simple. (what exactly was your point here?)
What does that have to do with my arguments, are you saying I'm shitting on Reflex? I keep posting because I hope the devs will realize what many people wanted is different from what we got, and will try to change that.
I know exactly what is happening in CPMA development, and thus can see clearly how different it is from what I see from the Reflex devs.
Elaborate on that. I think if any progress is going to be made in this conversation, it'll be here. If you really truly believe you're trying to be constructive, explain how your approach of arguing with me on ESR will get us there.
So far, you've said they've failed to deliver on their promises, they have not tried and there's no evidence they will try, and that they do not understand gameplay design. Through the act of reading your criticisms, these points will somehow change?
Such a deeply fallacious argument has ESReality ever seen, I know not. Because you know exactly what is happening with CPMA's development, therefore your knowledge of what is happening with Reflex development has been improved? Unless CPMA's development includes a portal into the minds and activities of the Reflex devs, I highly doubt that.
So, explain the toaster analogy. I am willing to admit I do not get it, are you going to back out or explain?
I want to make the devs realize many players are disappointed with the lack of experimental gameplay, to convince them to experiment more. I'll say this anywhere, and have mentioned this in other places. But yeah it comes up on ESR on a thread that gets views, so posting it here might get it attention.
Not sure what would constitute evidence of their intentions...
No, because I know exactly what is happening with CPMA's development, I can compare that to what I have seen and heard from Reflex development, no portal into minds required. I think you misread that.
My problem, I guess, is that you act like no one else cares about Reflex. Or that the devs aren't smart enough or work hard enough in your opinion.
I didn't. You do not know what the Reflex devs are doing nor have you ever seen their internal discussions. You have never been a Reflex dev yourself so you would not know what conversations they're having or what they're doing behind the scenes. Do you know what's going to be in 1.2? That's my point.
I don't act like that, I don't think that, that's just something you see for some reason.
I've never heard that.
It's a years wage for 3 developers (with minor paycuts from what we're making now) + money for contract work such as animation, concept art, boring lawyer stuff + tax/fees/etc.
It's a lot, but it's what it will cost to do the game properly -- we've taken it as far as we can developing out of hours using my now-entirely-depleted savings.
they didn't try much in the beta too (which is the perfect time to experiment).
The better question is why not?
I'm working hard. I'm not going to promise features or hype anything, because what ends up being in the next build might change. When (or "wen" as people like to keep poking/hounding with) isn't known at this stage too, might be a few weeks away still.
I'm more so interested on refinement than inflating/polluting the game with more features. In an ideal world large games would happen and mysteriously have people appear out of nowhere to form endless queues of large matches, but it just doesn't happen. For example, we put a lot of time into doing CTF (a lot more than just flags...), the tech for larger maps was pretty huge, team visibility/customisation of all the colours and having those go into the maps also, sounds, events, hud/lua... there's quite a bit to it.
Regarding the abusive people saying they paid for X, game is ded devs are ded and pickering about trivial trash. You paid $10 or less and typically have hundreds of hours in-game. I'd like to know how many other games you pay for that have given as many hours and costed more. Get a reality check. Sit down.
Think about how much money is pumped into marketing for other titles from big studios and what their player numbers are at or typically hours played. Millions of dollars pumped into marketing alone which far exceeds any actual revenue for the entire project, but people still like to draw comparisons... yep, well done.
A lot of people like to think they have the secret magical answer to wave their wand and it's everything anyone ever could have possibly imagined, but the reality just isn't that.
I know people will probably slam me, but they slam me anyway regardless. Bust our asses on a huge update monthly... slammed, what about X or Y? wen.
Hype anything, get poked wen constantly, release, slammed... what about X or Y, do the devs even care. wen is X coming.
Don't say anything, try focus on working. Slammed. Say something. Slammed.
Stop with the negativity.
Enjoy something, the amount of content is insane. The updates have for a long time have been huge and frequent. The update is yes taking a bit longer this time, no need to get out the pitch forks and abuse.