my old black ball mouse:[

better black than blue balls.

Mine is white and I still use it.

Pretty happy with the kana v1 for quite a long time now.

you should try the v2 :D

you won't be disappointed i think :)

wmo.

good choice. :)

only thing i don't like about wmo/ie 3.0 is that it's only 400dpi and build quality is average ^^

wmo with a dpi step between 1000 and 2000dpi and better build quality would be probably the perfect mouse :D

yes you are totaly right :D, but i use wmo/ie3.0 atm and im happy for now :D

That "average" build quality lasts 10 years.

Or 3 months in my case.

In your case.

yeah that's why people buy them in bulks of 5 or more, because they're just so well made

3 of my WMOs was perfect after 4 years, I sold my IM 1.1a, when it was 9(!) years old (still regret it, only 1 (2) microswitches could have been replaced), and just sold my 7(!) years old MS 3.0.

Old friend used a black WMO for 6 years.
Other old friend has a home-LAN room, 8 WMOs for quite some time now.

One of my previous WMO had some cable problems after 1 year, easily repairable.

They buying it, because who knows when it will be utterly unavailable - and it's relative cheap and quite good.

I see a lot of numbers which don't add up to an average build quality lasting 10 years and apparently your account is too young for you to remember all the "hey guys wmo dun work what gives" threads.

"registered<< account in early 2012 (around since 2006), so he must be trololo."

lel

And you have no memory of broken wmo threads? And what kind of proof is 3 of my 4 anything... If they're so good why don't you have just one? Friend of yours with wmos in a home lan don't do anything for me either, I can have a box of shoelaces good as new for years and years. You'd have to tell me that all of your friends have had a single wmo for 20 years to make me believe they last for 10 years on average.

"If they're so good why don't you have just one"

RSI. That +~10 g compared to Kinzu / Salmosa matters a LOT to me.

Who cares about ancient threads when that dozen WMO I have had / had some connection with them / known their users for years working / worked just fine for definitely long periods of time, most of them with excesive usage? Experience, that's all. If you don't believe it, you don't, if you don't want to buy it, you don't.

No, not why don't you have just one mouse, why not have just one WMO? And no, having 4 wmos doesn't constitute excessive usage, on any of them. I'm happy for you but don't act like you're the norm, WMO's are a lot of things but well made isn't one of them. There's a reason they're that cheap.

You sure seem to know when and how I use(d) my mice.

Me and anyone who can divide by 4.

Good for you.

salmosa, mx518, G9(non x)

so you like angle-snapping/prediction ? :D

Yes, to a certain extent, salmosa was oddly nimble with it though didn't really feel it on the salmosa even though I could see it in ms paint, but it felt more precise than the abyssus I had which was jitter-free, I could feel the angle snapping on the mx518 but it wasn't really that bad, just made rail worse but lg better.

The G9's weight and responsiveness are things I haven't felt in another mouse yet(could just be reminiscing).

your favorite player is k1llsen ? :D

Hell no, fox.

ok :)

good choice! :D

Maybe, noctis.

is it bad on the 518? maybe time to get a new mouse!

some people said it helps for hitscans but i don't believe it tbh :p

go for the logitech g400s , excellent mouse.

It depends on your aiming style.

g400

newer or older version ?

In the older days, razer boomslang.. now intelli 3.0

wingman gaming mouse

ball mouse ? :D

i think that you can find a mouse which has a similar shape if you look at cooler master's products :)

The real answer is coming soon :P

What do you mean??

http://www.esreality.com/post/2458366/have-i-gone-too-far/

Starting back up on this project after more time became available to me.

Fucking this.

Kinzu v1 & Salmosa. If personal use is the question. Ultimate would be a KinzuAdder.

Otherwise, my relic MX 300.

Optical Wingman

Good taste.

Wmo.

Zowie AM

MS IME 3.0

Logitech g100s

If I had to pick one, it would be the g100s too.

agreed

Loved my ie3.0

Very happy with th EC1 evo now.

iphone setup as a trackpad. My real answer is deathadder

Razer Copperhead lived for 9 years :o
now using the G300

mx310.

DeathAdder

Amiga mouse
IE3.0

man, amiga mouses were the worst fucking thing ever! I still rage at mine when I try to fire up the a500

Best ball mouse I ever had. But I didn't have none of the usual problems many others had. Mine was an A600, maybe that's why.

there is input lag on am/fk unless you're using 2400 dpi
and theres some kind of flickshot lag on Kana v2

but what do i know? im a dirty counterstrike player

logitech b100 !!!!!


OFFICE MASTERRACE

I'm still partial to the WMO shape, but the FK'14 tracks so much better

Surprised more have not mentioned this. Logitech Wingman Gaming ball mouse. I have to say, I do not miss cleaning rollers, but that shape was the best ever with no nonsense in the way anywhere.

I really would like for Logitech to rekindle this shape in a new product

Exact shape, just with a scrollwheel, S3095 or A3080 insides (Collector's Edition A2020 :>), max. 70 g w/o cord, cord ultra light-weighted, NOT braided, fix 500 Hz, cpi switch on mouse's belly, 4 smaller feet, some quality teflon, JAPANESE Omron switches, Plug 'n Play.

Pure win.

The communist (Thinkpad red dot)

i liked my razer diamondback alot. it was a very nice mouse when i didn't know what i wanted.

mx300
wmo 1.1a could be my new favourite, gotta get used to it first.
when you lift the wmo up and put it back on the mousepad it sometimes clicks itself, pretty weird.

SteelSeries Sensei [RAW] Frost Blue
Roccat Kova [+]
Razer Abyssus

ROCCAT™ TIMER
Another unique function is the ROCCAT™ Timer which allows the time it takes for special items to respawn to be timed to perfection in many games. The ROCCAT™ Voice counts down the last few seconds before giving you the 'Go'.

Yup, I have it on my keyboard, though I've never used it, takes to much time to click the button.

Bah, those manifacturers nowdays.. wondering with what to attract buyers.

Hi chaoz! Roccat stuff is nothing - look up A4Tech Bloody gaming mice (suppress recoil and stuff like that) - you get that with regular mouse software, some kinda of a smart macro/half aimbot crap. Yuck!

Rofl... implemented computer aim assist into mouse driver. Fuck this! :D

1. g100s
2. WMO
3. Deathadder

g100s without weight + hyperglides skates is amazing! :)

I ordered one (g100s) two days ago, but I'm scared to take the weights off when it arrives, worried I'll end up destroying the mouse. is it too complicated to do that sheit?

Probably like 1x1.

It's easy as hell.
To open g100s you need to take off a 1 screw under the biggest skate.

then you will find silver weight, just take it off... and ready to go.

It's no problem to put weight back btw.

MX518 + G400

1. ms 3.0
2. -
3. -

btw which of the new products have the ms 3.0 shape but a "better" sensor?

did you ever try the deathadder?

no only the ms 3.0.
once I did try some odd steel series mouse, which was crap.

zowie EC1 evo
razer deathadder
steelseries rival

zowie EC1 evo looks like the only alternative.
the two others looks mehh.

It's very good.

Pretty much Zowie EC1, but if you use 3.0 for 10 years, no reason to change.

cm storm alcor

it's like a shrinked ime 3.0, won't have much in common with it when you actually hold it in your hand.

Yeah, I guess, got one and I much prefer it's smaller size.

yea, i like it aswell, but isn't it 100g too light for you? :P

have you tested the new firmwares yet?
if so, what do you think of them?

left the stock firmaware active, haven't found any issues yet.
I'll test them when I get back to my room.
With me weight depends on shape and size, I wouldn't like to use a 160g pen for example.
I would have liked the abyssus and salmosa to be 20g heavier, alcor maybe 10g heavier.
I guess the more drastically the mouse gets clawed the lighter I like it.

1. ninox aurora
2. g100s

everything else sucks

http://esreality.com/post/2565700/mouse-mionix-avior-7000/

Thanks for the reminder [+] Error: The target user can't receive judgements

3. G400
2. Abyssus
1. Kana V2

deathadder (org)
mx518
zowie ec2
deathadder 3,5g

So annoying that there are no good mice with prediction anymore :(

:-(

Salmosa. Best Razer evah.

1. Abyssus
2. Salmosa
3. Kana
4. Wmo

g100s
wmo

ec1 evo cl, so goooooooood (as long as the coating stops falling off)
mx518 (and 510, 500)
cm spawn (shame i had the voip problem)

(edit, put them in correct order huehue)

Kana

Hard to decide.

WMO because I felt my aim was the best with it, but otherwise G400 because it's just more comfortable, no need to mess with polling rate either, but I feel slightly worse with it.

Is it possible that a motherboard doesn't allow for polling rate increase? I could tweak the USB ports on my old computer to play 500 Hz on both WMO, 1.1 and 3.0 but I can't on my new computer, so I bought a Zowie instead.

I honestly don't know. It took me a hell of a lot of time to make it work for me, but I had no idea what was I doing in the process.

But Zowie is probably a good choice, and I would've bought one as well if I had enough cash/time to play.

The Zowie (eVo EC1 CL) is really good, I just sometimes feel like playing with the WMO and it bothers me that I can't :()

be sure that the usb port you're trying to adjust is usb2.0. the common drivers for this do not support usb3.0.

Yeah, I read that somewhere but my 2.0's doesn't allow it either.

mx518

I've used and loved:

Deathadder black edition

IME 3.0

WMO

G400

Deathadder 3.5G

Steelseries Rival

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've used and hated:

Steelseries sensei (hardware accel and randomly terrible tracking on QcK cloth pad)

Deathadder 2013 (was sad to have this one on my hated list.. I LOVVVVED the deathadder black and 3.5G hands down 2 of my favourite mice that I used for a very long time but the 2013 edition has smoothing which is very noticeable on 400 dpi and alot of other users complain about it to it just makes your aim very sluggish and makes small adjustments really hard since the crosshair is smoothed over a couple pixels instead of just moving 1 pixel by 1 pixel)

BTW OP smoothing can be proven in mice by looking at the tracking algorithm and seeing how it counts pixels over distance... facts are NOT negotiable or debatable they are FACTS... if you look at the tracking algorithm of a mouse and it is smoothed over a few pixels instead of going 1 by 1 then the sensor has smoothing thats that.. no other way of putting it

I suggest you take a look at skylits posts on overclock.net (a mouse guru who has been around for years testing hundreds of mice more extensively then anyone else around) he looks into the algorithm of every new mouse released to find if there is smoothing or not along with tons of other things

you might learn something at the same time and also realize that calling something a myth without being educated on the subject first makes you the definition of ignorant

just because you dont notice or feel something YOURSELF doesnt mean its not there or true and thats a very very loose method of judging the legitimacy of something especially when on the other hand its being presented with facts through testing

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Currently very loving and using:

Steelseries Rival

dont see myself needing another mouse at all in the distant future so long as this one doesnt break or something random.. i am absolutely loving this mouse and love the shape of it, its almost like the WMO and IME3.0 shape combined its perfect for me and the performance is perfect

people reporting, that the DA 2013 feels more responsive now:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1486504/deathadder-2013-april-update

oh nice i might have to give my da2013 another try then

thanks for the info!

What does smoothing do exactly ?

I mean, how can you notice it when using the mouse ?

if you look at the tracking algorithm of a mouse and it is smoothed over a few pixels instead of going 1 by 1 then the sensor has smoothing thats that..

What are the consequences for the tracking ? How do you notice it ?
Sry probably dumb questions...








btw, i tried the krait 2k13 without synapse, plug & play, default settings, 1800dpi 500hz, maybe it's synapse that causes smoothing ?

smoothing wont affect you a HUGE amount I mean you can still play and aim just fine with a mouse/sensor that has smoothing obviously or else they would never put it in at all.. but it is annoying and causes a bit of sluggishness and bad tracking when moving the mouse in tiny steps

basically what smoothing does and the reason its implemented is to stop the mice from jittering like crazy at these ridiculously high dpis that they keep making them at.. they make it go to a higher dpi then it ever should be able to and the consequence is that the cursor jitters/twitches around alot at these high dpi settings so to compensate they add smoothing

think of smoothing as the equivalent of m_filter 1 in quake except a lot more noticeable and detrimental. its basically a post processing affect where it takes the input from the mouse so lets say you move the cursor 10 pixels then ontop of that smoothing does its job AFTER receiving that information then smooths out that motion by basically doing the same thing anti aliasing does for graphics (thats the best example i can come up with off the top of my head lol) where it takes the data then interpolates the movement by adding random "estimated" data where it sees fit thus "smoothing" the mouse movement

why is this bad? because first of all it does all of this AFTER you move the mouse.. this is why smoothing causes an annoying amount of input lag.. the amount felt depends on how much smoothing the particular sensor uses (or in some cases software/drivers because some companies do smoothing on a software level) so basically you move the mouse then before that information gets fed through smoothing has to hold onto it and do its job then sends it through thus creating input lag..

another reason why smoothing can be considered bad is because if you try to move your mouse in tiny little adjustments for example lets say in quake you are zoomed in and the gap you want to be looking through is a pixel or two to the right so you try to move the crosshair a pixel to the right but instead the crosshair moves 2-4 pixels.. this is because of smoothing doing that "estimation" of tracking thus making it difficult to move the mouse accurately for tiny aim adjustments

nice explanation.

it feels indeed like m_filter >1

Yeah.

Feels like Kinzu v2. : /

While v1 was a totally 0WnZ0r for me, v2 just sucks. -10-15 % rail, -5% lg. Rapid, tiny adjustments are a real pain.

thks for your reply man

now i understand a bit more

but you didn't reply to my last question tho :p

this one :

btw, i tried the krait 2k13 without synapse, plug & play, default settings, 1800dpi 500hz, maybe it's synapse that causes smoothing ?

because i'm constently switching back from abyssus to krait 2k13 to FK and what's weird is that i don't notice any input lag at all. And i'm sensitive to all the changes because i even notice the little difference between 500 and 1000hz...








i have another question : could it be the dpi settings you use that causes smoothing ? I mean, i'm using 1800dpi (default) as you know already, maybe at that dpi step there's no smoothing ? Or maybe it depends on the /sensitivity settings ? I'm playing with 23.5cm/360°

i answer.

don't matter if software is installed, or which dpi you choose with your krait.
but i guess you don't notice it, because you use CRT, which doesn't have any inputlag by itself.
maybe razer updates the firware of the krait, like they already did with the da 2013, which has the same sensor and is now reported to feel more responsive: http://www.overclock.net/t/1486504/deathadder-2013-april-update

this is weird.

because someone told me that apparently people reported input lag with the abyssus if not using the 3500dpi step. I tried 450, 1800 and 3500 and didn't see any real difference, it's almost the same really, and lower dpi steps don't seem to lag at all.

i also tried the fk at every dpi steps, and there again, i just CAN'T tell the difference between lower dpi steps and higher steps in term of responsiveness, every dpi settings just feel "right".

yeah maybe that's cause i'm playing on a CRT @ 100hz and 200fps so everything is smooth as hell.

same for the krait 2k13 i don't feel any lag at all except maybe that 1000hz is just a little bit more responsive than 500hz.

I could feel input lag on the abyssus with 450, but not 1800.

its very possible that its the dpi settings like i stated in my first post in this thread I couldnt use the DA2013 because the smoothing was way to noticeable at 400dpi.

the reason smoothing is there in the first place is to help the mice perform more accurately at higher dpi settings so yeah if you are using a higher dpi like 1800 the chance of you noticing it at all is way lower then if you were to use around 400

and about synapse causing it yeah thats also possible like i said before some companies add the smoothing in at a software level meaning there will be no smoothing unless you install the drivers (which is a better alternative then them just forcing it on us by putting it right into the mouse!) though i wish they would atleast make it optional in the drivers to have it on or off... but i guess they know that they market their mice off the "OMG 6000000 DPI AMAZING PRECISION" marketing tactic so they know that 90% of the people who buy their product are likely using it at its highest dpi so they just force us to use smoothing and dont want people to be able to turn it off because then people who dont know anything about smoothing or dpi could be using it at max dpi and turn off smoothing then start posting around the internet about how shit the mouse is because its performing terribly because they turned off smoothing

went on a rant there at the end about something totally different but i think i answered you hahaha

funny, using high dpi's shouldn't yield any technical inaccuracy or accuracy as far as my knowledge goes, it's just how accurate can you be at your resolution, and mice have gone waaaay further than monitors have come.

im not stating that dpi affects accuracy... im saying that dpi affects your ability to notice smoothing

lol....

Yeah, I'm talking about the need for smoothing, and why it's there at least as far as I can comprehend, res too low so high dpi feels spastic, answer filter and smooth it till it's controllable, sorry if I wasn't clear.

That can happen sometimes though not as likely.. the biggest detrimental thing about low res and high dpi and also way more likely and consistent is hitting negative acceleration way sooner if the game uses WM_INPUT because your cursor hits the edge of the screen way sooner which slows it down

The main reason companies put smoothing in and they even explain it is for the mice to not spazz out at higher dpis because the SENSOR ISNT MEANT TO PRODUCE SUCH A HIGH DPI IN THE FIRST PLACE

they inflate the amount of dpi the mouse can achieve by interpolating it through their software so that noobs who dont know anything about dpi will be more likely to buy it and/or think its good because of this huge dpi value but the thing is that the mouse's sensor isnt actually capable of producing these really high dpi's (regardless of resolution.. this is something the MOUSE ITSELF wasnt designed to do) therefor they have to put smoothing in just for the mouse to actually track and work when set to one of those non-native interpolated high dpi's



if you're curious about this type of stuff you can learn tons and tons of stuff from mice experts who have been around for years at overclock.net

I bought a Logitech G9 for 49.99CAD once upon a time, since then I've owned almost every high-end mouse all the way up to the expensive cyborg's and high end razer & steelseries mice. All pale in comparison to my G9 bought in 2006/2007.

mx300 and wmo

Zowie FK, loved the deathadder too

DA

LOD-wise, the IME 3.0, WMO and Zowie EC's do a particularly good job (a good sensor in the Zowie eVo besides that). Overall best imo is the mx300, by a mile. It's peculiar how they set the standard so high over a decade ago (and it was only like 15 dollars when released?), and failed to surpass it until now with the newer generation of 3090 mice. The rawness and simplicity of the mx300 is unrivaled, so it's definitely my (and that of many others) favorite mouse of all time.

you should try g100s then ;p

I have it, the weight feels a little misplaced (too high up in the shell, should have been lower). Sensor does not skip at my medium sens, but it feels a tad less direct than the old (A2020) sensor of my mx300.

you can remove the weight inside, i think.

you can do it, and its light as hell, feels like the wind can move it.

The best will be to have a half of additional weight ;]

I heard that by doing that you might mess up your mousefoot (the lower one that covers the screw), so it won't fully attach anymore.

yeah, you need mouse feet for replacement.
btw. stock ones are shit anyway

i replaced it like this:
http://i.imgur.com/8c64Q9c.jpg

:P

but after removing the weight it was so light that the cord was moving whole mouse ;p

I'm going to attempt this... i think i'll buy a new one so i have 1 with weight and 1 without at the same time lol

so you can plug both into ur pc and play both! ;d

It only took about 20 seconds to remove the weight, feels like an improvement immediately. Warranty probably declared void but i don't really care. I covered the sticky glue with some electrical tape as a temporary solution, going to order some g1 mousefeet in a minute. This is going to feel really nice with low sens.

imo nobody will spot it if you put it back on its place. ;)

Why would you need it? If you are not barbarian, you can easily take down the feet and put it back into its place without any damage whatsoever.

I tried putting it back on there, it wasn't as smooth anymore (little dents and bumps lol), guess i was too barbaric :<

my bro, barbarian :D

it was exactly the same for me, I think takasta is selling mouse feet for it. but imo hyperglides from wmo are good enough even they don't feet.

mine stock ones had defects when I opened it from a box, lol

but yea, I tried to do it softly and put it back, but it wasn't flat at all.

and stock ones imo sucks, very thin. hyperglides > all

W M O
M
O

Simply the best mouse for quake.

WMO

But all I've tried beside that was crap.

M X 3 0 0
X
3
0
0

M X 5 0 0
X
5
0
0

Z()W|E EC1
Z([])W|E FK
Z({[]})W|E AM

I'm quite satisfied with the CM storm Alcor atm, but back then(2007 :D) the DA 3G felt so good after using a MX500 for years.

edit: BTW, the Alcor has about the same sensorposition(bit more infront) as the WMO. :O

AND I'M SCRATCHING MY HEAD AS TO WHY CM HASN'T MADE A NEW SPAWN OR A SMALL AMBIDEXTROUS ALCOR....

edit: also why the hell they didn't just use the mizar's shell on the alcor.

they want to release an alcor v2 with probably the same shell as the mizar and a PWM-3310 sensor.(i hope they keep the unbraided cable).

pwm-3310 is why I didn't wait, since we don't really know how it's going to turn out.

Zowie EC2 eVo CL, of couse.

In late 90' Genius NetScroll+ w/ ball )))

Salmosa
Kinzu v1
WMO

Zowie FK
Razer Deathadder BE

Intelli Explorer 3.0 has been my favorite. Never had any trouble and it's been going strong for 7-8 years now