link?

Added the vod.

Like in terms of movement? Im definitely a fan boy of quakeworld its the closest you can get to Counter-strike bunnyhopping and scoutzknives air twirling lol

QuakeWorld is the best man; if you wanna play then we could do - Just hook up with me in #quake.uk or #qwca, and if you haven't got a client or settings - I can sort you out with that too.

Definatly the deepest tdm experience! I watched a commented demo a few years ago similar to what ddk is doing and I'd never understood QW 4v4 until then, just looked like lots of random.

blasphemy, of course it's the castle of vana.

edit: http://wiki.quakeworld.nu/Vana

apologies :D hopefully you can forgive my trespasses and appreciate my hyperbole and sensationalism. my qw history is lacking.

accepted ;) that was from the time when the slackers called themselves euthanasia and AMD was widely known as America Must Die.

demo: http://challenge-tv.com/demos/view/7396 !
and: http://challenge-tv.com/demos/view/11079
more: http://challenge-tv.com/demos/view/13345

faster does not mean more skillful, the faster it is the more you get away with, but its kinda fun to watch, the gfx are just shite though.

what do you get away with? Everyone has the same speed potentially.

Movement yes, but the extra speed means you will often get away with things that you wont in other games because they are all almost slower, so you actually become a worse gamer IMO for playing those games.

Even in the same game, you miss the finer, critical points of play that make you a better player and replace them with more generalist ways.

It's not just faster, there's no railgun which lessens the negative impact from possible cheaters, the community seems really tight, it's super customizable and with the added movement speed timing items closer is much more important.

you said "requires much more skill than Quakelive"

without a railgun you eliminate the long range aspect of the game, so the game is less demanding, so I dont see how it is more skillful.

more fun to sec yes, but so is womens tennis.

How does removing the long range aspect make it less skillful? Now you need to know when you're at a striking distance instead of just all times spamming rail far away.

from a team play pov i agree the rail is a problem but from a duel pov, the long range game is a core skill and duel is the king mode, so for me, it has to come first and things should fit around that.

maybe they can reduce damage for rail based on distance ,or use it to disrupt with knockback or blur opponent screen instead of directly stealing lots of life.

have you played quakeworld?

sounds like you havent played QuakeWorld what so ever.
whats holding you back? the lack of guides to read on how to be better at it?

You are bound to say that, nobody likes to be told the game they play is lesser skilled than another, but it is.

I am not about to waste my time convincing a quake degenerate that his 20th century masterpiece is not so great afterall, you just need to watch a modern quake live duel to see the level of skill in on another level.

thats just because the incentive to play it more has been around for so long. the idea that faster = less brain is perpetuated by a lot of people without any real reason. extrapolating the logic assumes cs and the like take more brain.

"thats just because the incentive to play it more has been around for so long. "

That is one of several reasons but its valid one all the same that builds skill levels in a community.

"the idea that faster = less brain is perpetuated by a lot of people without any real reason. "

Those people are not me though. Everything has an optimum pace, if you exceed it, you make mistakes. but when you surround yourself with people making the same mistakes, you trick yourself into think its all fine. But you are doing yourself damage in the deepest sense, but playing at such a fast pace you miss out on the core aspects of what make someone truly good at fps. Just go onto a halo forum and note how they take joy in being "good" when we all know they are waaaaay behind any quaker.

"extrapolating the logic assumes cs and the like take more brain."

No, because cs is the opposite end of the spectrum and its a team based game.

You can argue all day about this, is is no definitive answer, its like saying F1 is most the skillful driving sport cos its the fastest, but anyone who has ever seen a live rally will tell you without a shadow of a doubt the level of skill and danger makes f1 look tame.

The bottom line is, quake 3\live has had ten good years at the top of duel, so that deserves to be the benchmark.

Duel is the 1oo meter equiv in fps esport and quake3\live is the game deemed as top dog.

p.s.
my keyboard is broke again!

get yourself a thermaltake meka is has the arrow key layout you like.

ta, but found my backup!
http://www.esreality.com/files/placeimages/20...IPMENT.jpg

its not for gaming,at least for the moment!

Most welcome.

sounds like a 40 year old giving advice on things he doesn't have experience on

Im far from a Jamerio fan, but this part i agree:

>from a duel pov, the long range game is a core skill and duel is the king mode, so for me, it has to come first and things should fit around that

no QL dm13/t9 love?

dm13 no love at all, too slow for me, i enjoy some tactical gameplay but dm13 is just too much. T9 on the other hand fucking rules, sadly it got a very shot lifespan on official map pools. I play it when i find a willing opponent. Its ok to have some no-rail maps, but 0 rail map like qw isnt cool imho.

lol

isnt it harder to hit good lg/rockets on long range than hitting a rail? i just BURNED your, and jamerio, argumentation... as long range play is vital, doing it without PERFECT tool is much more harder and skilled...


tbh rail is noob camp weapon, used only to make lots of dmg from safe distance... totally pussylike... qw didnt have rail, cause it has no weapons for cunts...

actually back in OSP rail was hardest, then plasma then lg then rockets.

jamerio was refering to ql as finest duel experiance

I was just pointing out something contradictory, which Jamerio might just be reminiscing about considering his background.

lol

It takes insane skill to hit lg from long range! cause it doesnt reach there!!! Rockets reach but you have lots of time to dodge it. RG is the only weapon really efficient from long range. And with QL 80dmg it isnt so camper friendly as youre trying to put it. Youre entitled to prefer a game where theres no long range efficient weapon tho :)

I don't understand this logic. Why, exactly, would long range be considered "core" over short and mid ranges? Aren't they all a part of the same gameplay context? Isn't liking one range over the other a simple matter of preference? I guess Jamerio likes long range the best, it's a perfectly understandable and normal bias, but it does not, objectively, make it the "core" gameplay aspect in any way (only for him, obviously).

Taking that a little further, one cannot objectively say whether faster/hectic or slower/tactical are the most "skillful" styles. IMO both dynamics have their ups and downs and both preserve the aspects of Quake games we can all agree is what makes them so great (for pros and spectators) and so shitty (for newbies) at the same time, an extremely high skill ceiling and a big diversion in available individual gameplay styles.

Q2 is a nice middle ground, i think.

> Why, exactly, would long range be considered "core" over short and mid ranges?

Who said over short/mid? They complement each other. Let put it this way, best close range wapon: RL, best mid range weapon:LG, best long range weapon: RG. I cant believe were discussing this on esr, it has been like this since ages, its no coincidence they are considered the 3 primary weapons in the game.

i am not saying long range is THE core aspect.

I'm saying close\medium\long range are all aspects of a top fps game, qw does not have that because it does not have a railgun and that's a critical part of play that makes you think so much about positioning and much more because the consequences of getting hit are so big.

Ah, i see. Interesting point, and i kind of agree with that.

Wouldn't you say, though, that the lack of long range fighting element is covered up with faster movement and stronger weapons? LG and RL are ridiculously powerful in QW, that being complimented with faster, more flexible movement makes the need for a "sniper" weapon a bit redundant.

From what i can tell, the maps help with that as well, they seem to be smaller than those of QL/Q3, or at least they feel that way due to how the gameplay is. There aren't that many places on the common duel maps where LG or RL couldn't do the job of a RG, except at extreme distances, but as i said, those are very uncommon in QW duel in general.

Stronger weapons are relative. In other words, you both have them so I don't see how that makes a much of a difference. You get less training though if you die quicker.

Movement, well there are many things that make up a good player, movement is one of them, but when you put too much emphasis on one aspect, you lose out in others.

To me quake3 is the closest balance across the board to ticking all those boxes.

its just a pref, but the game I'm talking about has been the #1 duel game for 10 years, so its not like I am out on a limb here.

So, you've not played QW?

Not loads, but enough and seen enough to make what I think is an accurate assessment.

Plus all the QW players and Q2 and CPMA and WARSOW players (games with that sort of inspiration) got their asses kicked when they tried their hand at quake 3/live.

The proof is in the pudding.

Purri , CZM , Lakerman, Cooller, Reload and F O X

They progressed from QW onto Q3.

I'm referring to current, active players in qw. I know most of the good players have roots in the original but made the transition to q3/q4.

reload is a warsow player, I wasn't referring to the egyptian that lived in australia.

imagine if we could deploy artillery in QL

RL spam is a huge part of long range QW play. Given the large amount of ammo on maps, the large RL splash radius, and how fast rockets go, spam is more effective than QL by a large margin. Grenades can also be shot and bounced off walls/whatever to cover large distances on maps, they go much farther than the QL version. People also use nails to spam to slow down enemy movement as they do barely any damage but if you run into them they make you stop more or less. Finally people do snipe with SG but it doesn't do much damage over long range.

Rockets are not as fast or as damaging as a railgun.
Nades are far from precise.

Nails to spam, you've hit the nail on head, in your attempt to somehow stick up for QW you've only highlted my point even more, its spammy and less precise. I don't care how fast rockets are, they won't get from one end of the map in less than .1 of a second.

In quakelive, you get pixel railed if you mess up, high damage, instant hit, the result of that constant paranoia is always with you, so it teaches you to play better.

errh with that rocket splash you could easily deal 60-80dmg longrange.

That's why its less skill, stupid damage from less skilled moves.

And how long would rockets take to travel the distance of the long bottom corridor on ztn? 2-3 seconds?

The railgun is about .1 second. 80-100 DMG.

There is no comparison.

now I can tell you haven't played QW once

That's ok, now i can tell you do play QW and are butt hurt.

1100 ups rockets, + it's harder to hit rockets effectively than to rail, but I mean it is easier in qw to deal that rocket damage than it is in q3 but it's still easier to rail nonetheless.

Long range combat in QW is more skillful and interesting than rail. Also you can do more damage than rail with RL or GL because it can trap people via knockback so they can't get back around that corner to hide unlike rail. There's been many times where guys with 200/200 get ambushed at long range via spam and die because they get surprised by the first hit then trapped unable to retreat.

"There's been many times where guys with 200/200 get ambushed at long range via spam and die because they get surprised by the first hit then trapped unable to retreat."

The fact that you can take down a 200/200 over a long distance with spam says it all.

And best of all you said it :)

Well if you got caught in that spam you haven't the slightest idea of what you're doing, or your teammates are lazy and not giving enough info.

I am talking about duel.

Regardless rockets from the other side of the map are not a threat unless you're crap.

Why compare qw duel with ql and q3?, they're completely different.

The initial claim was QW is more skilled than quakelive.
Blame the fin.

Errh he embedded a 4on4 video...either way, have a nice day.

Check #91. Jamerio doesn't have a clue about the game

No comment.

What exactly did i say that was wrong?

Go on loser try actually defining yourself for once instead jumping straight to the outcome you dont have the brain or ability to make and therefore be called up on.

WAITING.....

And how long would rockets take to travel the distance of the long bottom corridor on ztn? 2-3 seconds?

Yes and how long do they take?

not 3 seconds by any means whatsoever

I said to 2-3.

So you're telling me I dont know what I'm talking about but you're openly admitting you don't know.

I'll ask again, seeing as I smell check mate for you.

How many seconds does a rocket take to travel from the length of the corridor on ZTN in QW?

at most 1.5, not 3.

I shouldn't be discussing with someone who loses 0-50 on lan, sigh

Actually I just checked it and its just over 2 seconds or bang on, so given I said 2-3 seconds and I was only talking in seconds (nice of you to talk in 100's though to exercise your desperation, it make me right again and you wrong once again.

http://picturepush.com/public/8891605

What a pathetic little nerd you are, you're never going to make a name for yourself while I am here, and the more desperate you try and get the more I know I got to you.

You're more than welcome to jump on a server with anyone stupid enough to side with you and get the official time, you'll see its between 2-3 seconds just as I said.

Another fine example of you thinking you're right when you;re just desperate and misrepresenting. Don't get to angry in your one bedroom palace.

youtube thinks otherwise

I would want to avoid "proving" your point any further too.

Don't you get bored of repeating the same recycled crap?

I'm only repeating it because he is not acknowledging it.

"that QuakeWorld requires much more skill than Quakelive."

I blame the Fin yes, but he is quite right about the skill needed in 4on4 at least.

well, duel in qw is horrible compared to ql, I don't think anyone even claimed qw duel is supposed to be good in modern times. however the 4on4 in qw is very good, and it's a similar thing in ql. duel in ql really good, but the tdm is lacking in comparison. no game can be the best at every game mode with a standardised balance, it just doesn't make sense.

The thread was about someone saying....

"that QuakeWorld requires much more skill than Quakelive."

Nuff said...

Some places it's almost unavoidable such as when you leave RA via tele on DM4.

errh who plays 4on4 on dm4 it's already overboard having 2on2 matches there and I liken those 2on2 matches to FFAs more than team games.

I don't even know what you are talking about. You can do the same in QL but timing RL and GL to do so is harder cause of weaker splash, knockback, and speed of the weapons. 200/200 stack in QW is also a lot stronger than in QL.

The point I am making is that in ql you have the constant threat of getting railed so it forces you to play tighter.

There is nothing in QW that forces you to play so tight.

Rocket splash that cover a whole corridor in duel, look at a hate or aerowalk game and watch those spam routines.

Spam routines are not the best way to justify skill.

I was talking about the constant threat but yeah it does not justify skill of course I was giving you the equivalent, but yeah I agree that the skill in qw duel isn't as high as ql/q3 duel at least from my perspective, but it is quite fun.

Well, it does have proper TDM.

but there is no active community behind qw

In NA, the qw TDM community is more active than qlives... well I mean it is active, ql is not at all =/ hasn't been for a long time now. Dunno about the rest of the world.. but don't they still hold a yearly TDM LAN in sweden for the game??

proof??

Proof of what? There were two successful NA 4v4 QW TDM leagues in the past year or so. How many NA QL TDM leagues have there been in that same period?

And yeah there usually is a QHLan every year or so but even now I think the EU QW scene is dropping like a rock. QW.NU is shit now and the wiki is all fucked up and hardly anyone playing. Gotta see what happens in the fall/winter.

for some strange reason, summer has always been colder than your mom in the qw scene. It'll kick back in around mid september for sure.

summer is like that in gaming in general due to people either:
-going on vacations
-taking on summer jobs
-doing warm weather things

summer has been always the time when you come back and all clans you knew have disbanded

WARM WEATHER THE FUCK DO YOU LIKE AT THE POLES!

qw tdm rocks, too bad the scene is so meh ;<

I've played both in TDM settings and it felt like qlive was a TON more skilled. slower yes... its just that in qw the rocket splash is so overblown you can score damage no matter how bad you aim those things, and the lg is so obviously op i don't really know what to say lol. Of course all the qwers all hate how in quakelive you actually need to hit somebody with a rocket for it to be a usefull weapon... "BUT ITS A ROCKET it should blow shit up all over the place" they say.. hehe

i dunno, different strokes for different folks! its all quake tdm tho, both are great but i just felt like qlive was more skilled and involving.... better maps too :)
/me ducks .......... oh wait in quakeworld you can't duck! haha =)

sort of agree that the rockets are just kinda stupid. the main skill with rockets in qw seems to be not damaging urself. lol.

but ql tdm isnt more skilled. thats just a stupid claim. ql tdm revolves too much around the weapons and not enough around armor/powerups. control is almost a totally incidental thing in ql tdm. overall i would say qw requires way more team play than ql for tdm.

im merely claiming how it felt to me :) never claimed it was a fact!

QW is weird in that it a great player can dominate but teamplay can still let the other team win. I'll always remember the QW draft game I played versus Squeeze. He's probably top 5 QW TDM in the world but I spent the whole match on mumble calling out his position, trying to shut him down enough and it worked. I can't imagine someone getting 50 net frags and their team still losing in Q3/QL.

http://qwcentral.com/index.php?l=1&s=1&am...s&no=6

thats cos uve never played ql tdm at a high level xD.

Never wanted to nor could I if I wanted to because there really never was a TDM scene in NA for QL.

The high splash damage adds a lot to qwtdm. Specially in this VOD where the map is e1m2. It's a pretty small and tight map without an LG. So the RL is very very important.
Usually only 1 or 2 guys carry one during a match and if those 2 are enemies it's crucial to flood that RL guy. It's always fun to see how someone carrying an RL with huge splashdmg has to avoid blowing himself up when enemies swarm him.

So it's not always positive to have huge splash dmg for the one carrying the RL. It's being used against the RL carrier a lot as well.

QW allows for more extremes in terms of control and deadliness, while in Q3/QL that doesn't really happen even with the top players. A great player like Angua can go on 100 kill 0 death runs versus other top players if they get a great game and great team play support. Shit like that can't happen in Q3/QL. Even if you play perfect you aren't rewarded as much in Q3/QL the game is weighed against skill to balance it out while in QW you are rewarded with crazy frag differences.

immortal about q3:
As John Carmack once said I believe "It's designed so anyone can get a kill on Thresh".
http://www.caligirl.net/interviews/q3w/immortal.html

It's true, nice link.

Go back to their roots. Why change what's successful? Quake and Doom2 were the funniest games I've ever played in my life, and they are far superior compared to Quake3 in my opinion. I feel that less natural skill is required to master Quake3. As John Carmack once said I believe "It's designed so anyone can get a kill on Thresh".

They're dumb enough to get it the wrong way.
.

nice link

4 question interview? xD

http://www.caligirl.net/interviews/q3w/todd.html

XD

watch a Quake 2 match :P

whats up with the setup on your head on the pic doc?

KKK

I thought that was too simple to be the answer lol

It's a baby towel.

of course a game that's been around longer has been figured out much more, so there is more to learn.

it's not skill, it requires more experience to get to a high level.

quake: mid 1996
qw: late 1996 - early 1997
quake 2: late 1997
quake 3: late 1999
today: august 2012.

yea... that must be it. no skill, just experience.

what is harder bw or sc2

and is it more difficult because its more complex or is it more difficult because the highest level has more years of practice and more stuff has been figured out

there's a maximum of 3 years between qw and q3.

that being said serious q3tdm started over 13 years ago compared to qw's 16. besides, it could well be argued that qwtdm's best years are long over and the two games share a similar time played: both well over 10 years, enough to get all the experience you want.

/edit tl;dr: some games offer a deeper level of play, it's skill not experience.

you can't be serious... sc was released in early 98, bw in late 98 while sc2 was released just 2 years ago :p

i played all quakes from the very beginning,
i love first quake's brutal-hardcore-gothic atmosphere the most.
but physics is just getting so much better from game to game. thats why i play qlive.

and skill-wise, i believe theres more to improve in a game with better physics, your possibilitys are just wider.

the same way i love old Formula 1 more than modern one. But now you can risk more, enter the "O Rouge" at a higher speed, duels last much longer, because pilots trust modern tecnique and could fight the whole circle wheel to wheel, could get much closer to the absolute limit.

simply compare vods. Rapha, Cypher, Noctis are just on another planet than anybody from qw (i watch qw from time to time).

The formula1 example is bs though, because there's always car limits in racing and all drivers are hitting them at all times in every era.
The only aspects in which f1 constantly improves (due to regulations) are grip and safety, so it is less risky/ballsy to take eau rouge than before (plus layout change, strips and all that). Point is it was easier to crash before and if you did you died, but all drivers were at the absolute limit anyway. Plenty of videos on the interwebz to prove that.

Moreover, you simply can't do historic comparisons in f1. Cars and conditions were absolutely different. What matters is how they did against their contemporaries, which is hard by itself due to everyone having different cars. For example Kubica was considered one of the best drivers yet he wasn't at the front of the pack, or Schumi predicted that Alonso was going to be one of the greatest when he was on his rookie season, or the fact everyone considers Senna to be the best ever even when his prime happened more than 20 years ago and when f1 was still risky. Some say Nuvolari and Fangio are there too, or Stewart (with the addition he's been training top drivers for several years)




As for quake, more than the game itself what matters the most is who are you playing against. I agree some games offer more possibilities than others, but at the end of the day what matters the most is what skill level was achieved by players.
Because in Q3 players went pro, skill level arouse an awful lot, and also duel stayed popular for like 10 more years than QW.

But don't get me wrong, QW players did develop the game lots too. I remember reading and watching some q1dm4 guides and it's a mind opener.
And it's not like QW is Shootmania or something. In some aspects it's more complex than QL (for example timing and defending weapon pick ups), and in almost anything else it's the same, besides absurdly overpowered weapons making it simpler.

Milton gives quake lesson to both rapha and cypher, with one hand

what happened with bulat

hes a funny and cool guy, but nowhere near milton/locktar/rikoll(tho he gave a good fight against him on the last cashprize cup) level imo

so he's still playing?

maybe a qhlan appearance? might be the next cooller

what happened to reppie/dag/griffin?

reppie and dag dunno, but griffin played some matches like 3/4 month ago

Griffin hangs around now and then.

QW TDM > *

QL DUEL > QW DUEL

this

SM Elite > QL TDM tho

I'm glad you finally realized the truth.

You don't bother replying to serious questions, yet reply to sarcastic remarks :(

I'm sad that you mask the truth in sarcasm.

Skill is just so broadly defined it's hard to say but I know what you mean, many people will disagree but I think Quakeworld is the most hardcore and hardest game you can play. If you are a newbie these guys have just matured this game to its peak pretty much and at that peak I don't think a guy like cypher or rapha could easily transition to it. Vo0 has said many times that he respects the fundamentals of Quakeworld but simply has no interest in playing it. He can't even hold his own really, even though he doesn't really play it except on ztn and aero. Now, take a quakeworld player who is successful and push them into Quake Live. You can arguably say the same thing. The only player to be overall successful in everything I think and is very well rounded is fox and arguably griffin. Both have some cpm prowess and I believe exposure to Quakeworld.

So in the end, no game is more skillful, no game is more demanding. Each game just utilizes a special set of skills you cannot fully transition outside of aim in the game or timing. I think it even may come down to only movement, and understanding how the maps are designed and angled, and the limitations of the guns you are using.

You do realize many QWers have been incredibly successful in Q3/QL? Fatality, CZM, Lakerman, etc all played QW. I'm sure the reverse would hold true as well but I haven't heard of it happening at the top level mainly because there hasn't been money in QW in ages.

I been watching some matches here and there over the summer. It is really good to watch.

I come from qw originally and all I got to say is QWCTF was the best hardcore gaming experience I've ever had.

QWtdm is awesome and back in the days that they didn't use voicecom it was just madness how teams like Slackers communicated with eachother. An entire keyboard full of binds and all of them sending out messages non stop and they actually read it all while playing an game with an incredibly high intensity.

Qwtdm still has more tactical depth than qltdm has. I loved watching qwtdm div1 games. Speccing qltdm is really not that interesting, allthough I remember watching it quite a bit during the first Clanbase eurocups etc.

I like QL duels a lot more than qw duels though. Also when watching it.

Both games have their charms, but nothing beats teamplay in qw.

QW CTF is fun to play but runes aren't even remotely balanced. :-) There's no stopping a top player who gets resist rune then RA+QUAD, it's like god mode.

Is it really a bad thing ?

Yeah it is because once someone gets resist who knows what they are doing the game is over and runes spam randomly at the beginning so it's not even really skill who finds it first.

Well it's probably "FUN", not everything has to be absolutely competitive.

the good old days when a quad meant 4x damage

I'm old now and my reflexes stink. I'd rather play Quake Live.

are people looking for fun game or skill demanding? i dont get this skill thing thats taken everyone over.
this takes more skill than that... etc etc. just play what make you happy and u can always turn that into a skillfest.

I realized, that promode requires much more skill than QuakeWorld and Quake Live. But tbh not today.

THIS