today is the 8th.

something's 'rong ?

naw im just stating the obvious over here

thx cap'!

Go iMmune!

were the WB games announced/streamed? Can't remember it.
Anyway, great games tonight.

gogo dk !

go deluxe

no betting?

fnatic vs frontline should be intresting

no stream for deluxe game? bummer

haha the good games are not getting streamed, thumbs up!

the lvl^ link is somehow messed up....

props to disrepute guy for the sexiest voice

thanks x

dra-ma, dra-ma

xou won dm20, someone hand him a trophy

For those that missed the iM vs 4K game:

Just before the first quad (1st map dm20) xou decided to kick 'iM VOR' from the server. Vor was at quad at the time with weapons.

If you know dm20 well in TDM, the quads basically should decide the next two mins of play and the most important quad is of course the first one so you can get on a roll.

xou's reason for kicking vor mid round with no timeout was he insulted him.. Watch the vod/demo, vor does not.

Anyway I think it is fair enough to say that doing something like that totally fucks up the entire match.

this surprises you? it's merely evidence #93838 that xou is a power abusing egotistical-yet-low-self esteemed moron.

I never said vor insulted me, you shouldn't be assuming that

(22:23:57) (@rax) xou| I hear you kicked a stacked player before quad because he insulted you or smth
(22:24:08) (@rax) that seems a bit retarded but maybe I'm only hearing one side of the story
(22:24:49) (@rax) it's unlikely you'll spill the rest but I thought I'd mention it anyway

(22:25:00) (@xou|) cool story bro
(22:25:15) (@rax) aha so you react by acting the dick
(22:25:24) (@rax) well, that pretty much sums it up

(22:25:51) (@xou|) that "or smth" sums up what you know about the story
(22:26:08) (@rax) that's why I brought it up, I clearly stated I maybe heard only one side
(22:26:21) (@rax) but your attitude has always been a bit shit, so I expected your shit reply

(22:26:21) (@xou|) yet you're calling me a dick
(22:26:50) (@xou|) w/e
(22:26:54) (@rax) go cry in a corner about being insulted

(22:26:55) (@rax) w/e
(22:26:56) (@rax) lol
(22:27:03) (@rax) tantrums are for kids mmmk

(22:27:26) (@deji) he didn't even insult him
(22:27:35) (@deji) he told a player in the other team to shut up
(22:27:38) (@deji) in warmup

(22:27:48) (@rax) lol ;D
(22:27:52) (@deji) and he got kicked for it

Maybe Vor can be an annoying cunt but admins shouldn't bring their personal issues into games they are managing.

I don't understand why im continued playing.

I'd at least want some sort of explanation and demand a map restart or something before I continue playing after a admin kicks one of my teammates for no reason.

Imho at the very least dm20 should be replayed, because this is ridiculous

You don't know xou very well I guess?

xou has threatened to default against us for being a few mins late before, plus the other admin in quake live is the 'manager' of 4Kings and 4K seemed to have no desire to restart.

I agree we should have all joined spec and forced a restart but it didn't exactly feel like we had fair minded, unbiased individuals on the other side to back us up. Plus in that moment you don't think strait because everybody is just saying wtf..

plus the other admin in quake live is the 'manager' of 4Kings

even if he is not neutral, any admin should have enough sportsmanship to agree that kicking vor in that situation is a deal breaker

Good luck with sportsmanship + quake admins...

not trying to defend xou, but...


I like how you say that your team is late and vor tells another player to shut up on the server, both violations of ESL's rules that you agreed to by joining the tournament. Yet, you try to make your team look like the cool guys who are just the victims...

It's always better to act by the rules if you are going to play the "but the others are assholes" - card.

We were not late for this match. I am referring to a previous UK match when we were waiting for deus.

Vor was told to stfu first so why should he be the one to be kicked and not also the player from the admins team.

I understood that, still being late is an affront to your opponents, the admins, the casters and the spectators. No matter how you turn it.
Of course, it happens, is forgivable and should be forgiven. and it was forgiven.
But you can't just go ahead and say you are doing everything right, afterwards.


And I don't know about you, but to me there is a big difference between "stfu" and "stfu you cock sucking faggot". I mean, the latter is a direct attack.
But yeah, if xou wants to ride the paragraphs he should at least have warned jck, as well.

I am not saying being late is acceptable, but just to be clear we were on time for this match and it was 4K that did not have 4 players on at the time, hence vor's reference to xou defaulting after 15 mins.

There is no rule saying he can kick players, even if they abuse each other. I mean I don't agree with vor saying that but teams do it before every match and clearly the aggression was started by a 4K player.

Particularly severe abuse cases with extreme statements or the threat of physical violence can result in significantly heavier penalties including the exclusion of the player.

there is he rule, whether is applicable is debatable.

But honestly, in every real sport I have played if a referee gets to hear that sort of insult between players he will at least think about expelling them on the spot. A "stfu" would probably just get them a warning.

I guess it's just that insults are so abundant on the internet that makes it seem no big deal.

You can't just adapt rules to kick players mid-game for minor rule breaking.

That rule talks about excluding, he wasn't excluded, he was childishly kicked, post-event, during the official match, for an offence that occurred in warmup, without a warning, then let back in and the chance for replacement wasn't even given by the admin.

Oh and he didn't even explain what had happened.

huh?

I didn't adapt anything, there is a rule for insulting and that one was used.
That it was minor is nothing but your opinion. For a test, please present the line "shut up you cock sucking faggot" to your parents at the dinner table and ask them if they think it is a minor insult.
Now keep in mind that it was a streamed, official match for a sponsored tournament. Still, I will give you that it is debatable whether it is a severe insult, but I said that right away.

You might want to read the rule again, if you think that only an exclusion is covered.

I didn't say that xou did a good job or anything, in fact, in another comment I said he didn't. I also didn't comment xou's behaviour in the aftermath, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to mention that.

What I think your comments boil down to is: You disapprove of xou as an admin and have done so before this happend. We get it.

"You" doesn't always refer to... you the individual.

Particularly severe abuse cases with extreme statements or the threat of physical violence can result in significantly heavier penalties including the exclusion of the player.

Rules and punishments go hand-in-hand I'm afraid, you can't have a rule and then apply ad-hoc punishments for them.

It is my understanding that "penalties" in the ESL sense refers to the penalty points and "exclusion" refers to the eligibility of a player to play in competitions and I don't know of any rule where the admin has the power to kick players mid-round in that manner.

You can't on the one hand say "Well there was a rule" and then say "Oh, but the punishment and manner it was dealt with was wrong".

Vor broke a rule, as did jck, but the rule wasn't applied universally and the punishments weren't in line with any ESL rules. You may notice it neither states nor implies that you can be kicked off the server, with no warning, no explanation, no opportunity to replace the member (and no, a team using up a timeout doesn't count here) and it can be done whenever the admin decides.

Yeah, I think this kind of behaviour is totally expected from xou and yeah, I think he's a moron, but, if this game was between two teams I'd never heard off, in a league I'd never heard of and had an admin I had never heard of I'd be taking the exact same stance, so don't even go there, it a rather cheap deflection tactic.

I know what that "you" can mean that, and understood it as that. But still you were talking about my interpretation of the rule, so I kinda felt adreessed.

They talk of heavier punishments and give one example with exclusion (from the whole competion), which I think we agree is the heaviest punishment. Therefore, kicking (kinda an exclusion from a current match) is not as strong.
The rule is vague, and they could have at least added a "as the admins see fit", but to me there is no doubt that weaker punishments such as exclusion from a current game is covered.

You can't on the one hand say "Well there was a rule" and then say "Oh, but the punishment and manner it was dealt with was wrong".

Yes, I can do that. The rule above is so vague that it asks for and allows a judgement call of the admin. And that is what xou did. I can then go and say I did not like the judgement call.

Vor broke a rule, as did jck, but the rule wasn't applied universally and the punishments weren't in line with any ESL rules.

Yes, they did, but again it is a judgement call. saying "stfu" is not nearly as extreme as vor's reply.
So, a different treatment is certainly covered. Imo a warning for jck would have been the way to go, though.

You may notice it neither states nor implies that you can be kicked off the server, with no warning, no explanation, no opportunity to replace the member (and no, a team using up a timeout doesn't count here) and it can be done whenever the admin decides.

Again, it is a vague rule, and I think you would agree that all the actions you listed can be described as a "heavier punishment". At least in my opinion it is less heavy than an exclusion.
Yes, ESL should have made their rules more precise, but they didn't. But it is important to remember that the teams accepted those rules when the entered the tournament. Why didn't they complain about it earlier? Why didn't vor call them cunts for trying to forbid insults, back then?

Yeah, I think this kind of behaviour is totally expected from xou and yeah, I think he's a moron, but, if this game was between two teams I'd never heard off, in a league I'd never heard of and had an admin I had never heard of I'd be taking the exact same stance, so don't even go there, it a rather cheap deflection tactic.

I have no idea where I made any remark connecting you to im or implied you would act differently with any other team.
I do however have the impression, that you would act differently if it had been another admin to make the call.

It's important to make the distinction between "punishments" and "penalties" as ESL use "penalty points" to issue "penalties" so there is an implication to this word in the context of the ESL and it isn't the same as a punishment.

Subjective reasoning for what is "extreme" is ridiculous, if you went up to someone and said "Shut the fuck up" it is still aggressive, confrontational swearing and would be over the line as far as polite society is generally concerned.

So a warning for jck for "stfu" & "fuckface" but a temporary mid-game kick for vor? come on, it's a warning for both, then if it escalates further punishment.

I just felt I'd make the point that even with zero possible connections to the situation, I would take the same stance here.

It's not like the fact it was xou even really factors here, it was a terrible decision, barely and rather tenuously backed up by vague rules (which I doubt he had at hand) that don't really support it anyway and dolled out to one party when the second had equally broken the rules.

Subjective reasoning for what is "extreme" is ridiculous,

Maybe we we should have a person present who is at best not affiliated with either side and who can make a judgement on what he thinks is extreme. That might even work for other sports, too.
Oh wait...

which I doubt he had at hand

thank you for your time.

So "fuckface" isn't extreme but "cock sucking faggot" is?
I'm sorry but it's quite clear these are equals even if "stfu" isn't considered an extreme statement.

Or we could have rules that are clear with what is and is not considered acceptable so that everyone is on the same page and knows the consequences.

But yeah, fuck the distinction between penalties and punishment, it's just meaningless rules and stuff, lets just make up rules ad hoc.

sorry, I missed the fuckface in the log :(

The late game was a UK game, not iM (and Deus isn't iM).

I see, but disrepute doesn't seem to to see a big difference between the two ;)

It was about the context of vor's initial comment and then the likely consequences of any actions we took as a result of the incident.

ok

holy shi- its the iM-patrol, run xou

somebody get frozen on the case

OH NO YOU DIDN'T

Face, blood, yea

What a false start! WP xou, you owned the quad, swung the game, demoralised iM and all within 40 seconds and without even being on the team.

Failed the Police entry exam perchance?

As a strictly neutral and a former admin in ctf for BarrysWorld back in Quake3 days here, who enjoys a good stream of Qwaik Live to pass the time while the "significant other" watches shit on tv.

From what I saw, a player that was tooled up ready for the 1st quad gets kicked by the admin for whatever reason. That's a pretty digusting way to abuse the power and trust that two teams have placed into the admin to make sure that the game is played in a fair way, as a representative of the league/competition that the game is being played for.

Surely this "problem" could've been solved outside of the game, and in another place and time. Anyway, I personally think that the admin "xou" should be revoked of his admin privileges and struck off the admin list for the league/competition because it is not what an admin should be doing.

Also that iM should get a replay of both games against 4Kings, because to be fair to them, their mindset must've been thrown out of wack with one of their players being kicked just before 1st quad in TDM, which is quite significant really. This was not a fair game played in a fair manner at all.

F1

Just xou, being xou, nothing to see here.

.

hmm...whats this all about,as far as i can tell,xou does alot of the ql community ,but what was this shit about

forgive and forget,i say

as already stated, if iM thinks its 'that' terrible, why did they continue playing to complain afterwards?

theres no free-rolling possibilites in situations like this, either you play the full game and be fine with it, or you ask for a restart after the 30-40 secs that had gone.

i mean obviously it wouldn't be such a big deal if you guys would've won, right.

Because xou's a dick who just kicked a player for no reason and the other admin is a member of 4k?

I'd have spectated but I guess they didn't think it through or something.

With me being a dick and you being an ass, imagine all the possibilities

as i said, there's no free-rolling when stuff like this happens. if you continue playing the remaining 19 minutes and 30 seconds, you commit to the game.

im not arguing whether the kick was justified or not, just saying don't complain afterwards if it wasn't a problem before the end result.

Who said it wasn't a problem before that?

i would just assume there weren't one as they didn't timeout and point it out.

post #40, "so 4k played the full 20 minutes, in a lose-lose situation? if they lose the game, they lose it. if they win, they'll have to replay it, because iM didn't ask for a rematch after 30 seconds?"

iM got nobody to blame but themselves that they didn't ask for a rematch during their several timeouts at the time vor got kicked. complaining afterwards is just stupid, the admin is not the one being punished here, if anyone it would be 4k, who did nothing wrong

A admin kicking a player from a team during a match without any explanation in a money tournament is not ok, regardless of iM's reaction during or after the game.

I don't know xou. Maybe he was having a bad day, we are all human after all, And I'm sure he does far more good things for the quake community as bad. However this was a mistake, and the only way to fix it now is for him to apologize to iM and to have the map/game replayed.

how would this be fair to 4k? this is what im saying, there's no free-rolling.

so 4k played the full 20 minutes, in a lose-lose situation? if they lose the game, they lose it. if they win, they'll have to replay it, because iM didn't ask for a rematch after 30 seconds? the problem here was maybe initially created by the admins, but iM allowed the game to go on.

yeah, you got it spot on..

esr loves drama and hate though, people wont be happy till esl lose their most active admin ;>

well trying to kill off QL due to childish drama is really just beating a limping moose, it'll die eventually anyway, up to the kids to decide when

No, just apologise and make bets for world cup and we're all happy :)

If I was in 4k I wouldn't want to win a map like that.

There was confusion about what was happening. Vor had just been kicked and we called a timeout. At first we didn't know what had happened, just that we had lost a player. We had to check it wasn't a pb kick or some other random error. Xou didn't say anything about his decision well into the second timeout, at this point we requested a pause because we had no idea what was going on.

Since no pause came, and xou wasn't saying anything about his decision to kick vor, we hurriedly tried to continue the game with no thinking time (at this point we had used our 3 timeouts and still no pause from xou).

We should've specced up straight away but we didn't have the time to think about what had happened or why. It wasn't until after the map that xou said anything about his decision.

The point of this post is to illustrate what we were thinking as the map was going on and why we didn't request a restart. In hindsight we should have.

I should add that as no pause was called, we had no reason to expect the admins would agree to a restart. The lack of a pause implies they want the game to continue and may have even awarded us a default loss should we spec up. Given the bizarre nature of ESL rules, this isn't too far a leap in logic.

i like turtles

does france have turtles?

why hello thar, i would like to introduce you to a movie called cannibal holocaust

vods are available at: iMmune vs 4Kings

http://www.own3d.tv/lvlup

:)

And a direct link to the VOD:

http://www.own3d.tv/video/27765/ESL_EMS_TDM_W..._vs_iMmune

Feedback on the config/gfx settings please. Direct any flames you might have to nvc since he created this config. Thanks.

I really like the rail settings, the beam looks awesome

However, cg_forceteammodels and cg_enemyweaponcolor (or whatever it is) set to null look much better for streams imo, the green rails are very dull :D

thanks for the link, at least now everyone can see what happened during the match

at 4:40 in the vod vor says "xou will make you forfeit at 15mins past" "if you dont ready"
jck replies "just stfu" and readies up.
then at 4:57 vor says "shut yourself up you cock sucking faggot"
and jck replies "lol says fuckface"
the game starts, xou says "gl hf" during the countdown
at 5:58 in the vod, 43 secs into the match, vor gets kicked and sc00t times out and xou asks "you guys got a 4th?"
during the second timeout called by iM, vor reconnects and writes "are you fucking kidding me" and xou replies "vor > next insult ban stays"
vor: "this is beyond a joke", xou "deal with it"
4k gets quad, game continues...

i cut out some unimportant chat, but well, see for yourself

Where was jck's kick?

is that a general question? cause i am not taking a side here, just writing this to get some facts straight

It was a rhetorical question.

This is the kind of selective stupid shit that happens all the time in gaming and it's moronic. You can't on the one hand kick one player for being insulting then not another, even if it is in retaliation.

is vor really dumb enough to mean "shut yourself up you cock sucking faggot" serious? lulz

seems like xou overreacted (would like to know the whole built up) though, the comment from vor is worth some penalty points (jcks probably aswell then) but interference with the game during the first map is not an option for sure.

Yeah I'm always dead serious when insulting people I don't know on the internet harhar etc. People are so up tight about some minor shit talk these days. :<

It's interesting you went through the chat like this actually. The reason being when we were talking about this after the game, xou told us he was afk during the warmup and that he kicked me when he saw the log. But you've gone through the vod and xou is clearly there during the 10 second countdown.

well its tough to tell what is serious and what is not when you dont know someone, the internetz is serious business afterall ;) but tbh this just doesnt look like some good old trashtalk

i also found it interesting that xou wrote something during the countdown, thats why i mentioned it, but it doesnt really show if he read it before or not, he might have just come back at that moment. we cant tell

People are so up tight about some minor shit talk these days. :<

apparantly, there are people who have less fun playing when there are insults thrown around.
Furthermore, ESL has sponsors and they usually don't react well to that kind of "minor trashtalk". Now, you say fuck the sponsors, fuck ESL and their rules. But in the end, without them I doubt there would be a TDM league with prize money.
If you want to keep your right to insult freely whatever you do, you should not participate in that league.
Trashtalk on a server are also generally a bad idea when xou is adminning, I don't know if you followed the IEM Finals, but it's very clear he doesn't like it at all.

That said, of course I agree xou clearly acted badly. And even if he was going to kick you, he should have done so before the game, or at the very least after you were fragged then paused and asked for a replacement.
However, as funnyb and nVc pointed out, your team continuing to play makes it impossible to find a fair solution now. As having to play a rematch would suck for 4K (just imagine their quad runner would drop due to a connection failure).

During the IEM finals, that was Rondrian using my QL account. I didn't step in during the Cooller/av3k trash talks. I think I already left a comment about that in a previous post.

oh, I didn't know that.

And I was wondering how you managed to stand behind cooller, looking angry and typing at pretty much the same time :)

The thing is 4K should have wanted a restart too. Why would they want a win based on this situation. If I was in their position I would have demanded an explanation from the admin and agreed a restart.

hmm, that's also easy to say after you were on the losing side. And even though it would be a commendable thing to do, look at it from their side:

An member of the other team gets kicked, yet, they keep on playing*. Why should you be the ones to stop playing and possibly risk the wrath of the admin? Or else losing the game, cause your opponents still don't stop?





*(at least that is what I understood from the comments here, haven't watched the game, myself.).

Yeah, I just came back right before the game started. Then I noticed the logs.

where can i download this stream cfg?

Tomorrow the EMS head admin will review that problem (me kicking vor at the beginning of dm20 during iM / 4K) and he will decide what to do about it. That might take a few days.

Without a doubt that was a bad choice I've made and I already apologize to iMmune for it. It's too early to share the whole story as some things are still unclear. That should come later, with the decision of the head admin.

For now, I can say for sure that I won't admin the next EMS Quakelive if there is one. Somehow, I'd probably end up kicking vor again for his bad behavior.

5 MINUTES BEFORE START....

vor: better ready up or xou will kick you after 15minutes

********true fact, you have said this several times before********

4k player: shut the fuck up
vor: you shut the fuck up

GAME STARTS... 40 SECONDS LATER, whilst vor_ is standing at quad with shotgun and railgun + 97hp...

"vor has been kicked"

********vor whilst frantically scrolling through console as his teammates say "wtf" in the server asks "did pb just kick me?".********



I don't want to get involved because i belong to neither team, and infact, i left iM before the season started as i discussed with you previously. But i have to take iM's side tonight; vor_ was stating facts, and then responded to a 4k player.

I told them they should have just spectated and asked for a restart, and for that funnyb is entirely correct. But from the other standing, they asked for a pause and you denied that too, so risking the ability to join spec could have allowed you to give 4k a "default win".

Hard one to call :) Either way i respect what you do for the community, tonight was a huge dissapointment for everybody and all i can really say is that, i hope everybody learns their lesson.

That's what I'm saying: "It's too early to share the whole story as some things are still unclear."

I'll stick with what I said

you should've waited for quad spawn and kick him when he is one step away from quad! :D

Why leave your admin status in EMS QL if you realised that it was a mistake? People learn from their mistakes, so...

i was gonna write a longer post but i decided to make it simpler, leaving your admin position for a mistake over a bad manner piece of shit like vor is a total overkill

That's not the only reason

You apologized? When? All I saw was you acting like an asshole after the match. Log from the match chann:

KM i think we're owed an explanation
xou|esl I don't owe you anything KM, you're not involved in that game
deji so explain to me
Sc00T`then answer to me
KM explain to everyone else then
KM don't be pedantic
KM just explain it pls
xou|esl has kicked KM

DISREPUTE u affected the whole match just because of some rash rage decision
xou|esl has kicked DISREPUTE
xou|esl that dude wasn't involved in the match as well
deji he's in our clan
vor he's our team leader LOl
vor how is he not involved
xou|esl he still hasn't played tonight

Nice way to apologize.

I wrote "apologize" and not "apologized". That wasn't directed to KM or DISREPUTE as they didn't play in that game, but to the iM players.

Read carefully

how did iM not quit immediately and demand rematch with diff admin? i am sure "lets play, if we win we win and if we lose we demand a rematch" is a typically british way of handling this sort of situation.

afaik vor was the only British player in iM tonight. So your argumentation is rather weak.

my argumentation is rather ridiculous since i went by the newspost flag. but i still think that was their plan.

Read the above posts. We asked for an admin pause because we had to use all of ours, but we did not get it. Why would we think that speccing up would not be considered as a forfeit?

they were refused a pause, so you think they would have got a restart?

We didn't stop playing as we were confused. During the first map we didn't even know who actually kicked and for what reason. Other than that, the ESL has very strict rules which will give you penalty points (and thus prize money reduction) if you pull off stuff like forfeiting in-game.

Well, as a caster on the match, I have a split opinion on this, just like I said on stream.

The kick was weird, maybe uncalled for, but as I said live yesterday "wth they don't ask for match restart?"
I kinda feel the same way Becks does. Not judging xou, it's not my place, but after such a weird thing, calling no restart kinda makes the map final....
And tbh, "we didnt think of asking a restart" is just bollocks... It's the first thing that comes to mind after an unjust kick.

That's part 1 of my opinion, part 2 is that I like that admins don't take crap. They get loads of crap already coming at them free of charge every day and yes, mistakes happen, but he's still the admin and is given his set of rules as well...
Some admins are tough to deal with, some are very easy and lenient, some are medium, but in the end they are the admin, respect it....
Also what's the crap getting dozer involved here, yes he's 4K, yes he's ESL admin, I don't see however in what possible way he is connected with the situation of yesterday....

They should have asked for a rematch during their timeouts, however they already stated they were all very confused as to what was happening.. Don't forget that xou's kick came a short while after the offense.

Given the circumstances I don't think everyone would be going into spec or asking for a re when the admin has already shown he won't give them a pause, even though his abusive actions are the reason it's required in the first place.

Because an admin does a good job with many other elements should not mean a match deciding wrong decision should be overlooked.

We should not respect his actions here, they were that of a 12 year old kid taking his ball home from the park.

We discussed a restart in the few seconds of timeout we had left, but instantly decided that xou would probably default the match and 4K would not back us up but would accept it. This is based on our experience with these 2 elements in the past. We also were not sure what even happened initially and assumed it was a random pb error at first.

Of course we then played on and tried to focus but after something like that your mind is not in the right place.

It was a match influencing decision and based on the timing (quad time and vors position) it seemed calculated at the time. Also the fact we know xou does not like vor made it pretty clear it was personal.

I cant expect you to understand if you don't actually play competitive games but even with the tactical effect of the kick being significant for that first quad, the most important influencing factor was the phycological impact. I actually doubt restarting would have cleared the minds of our players.

Err, it's not because I don't really play QL competitively right now that it means I never did so, I've had my fair share in Q3, Q4 and ETQW...

All I'm saying is - and I've actually said it already but here goes - is that the first thing in my mind would be to get that game restarted.

Confused you say? heh, Quake isn't quantum mechanics, the discussion should have been raised immediately, and there is no reason to speak of a bad mindset to the game after 15 seconds of play...

maybe if you just won a tense game in overtime but not 15 sec in map 1... really...

Hi, 90 seconds room for discussion with an admin that is simply telling you to "deal with it"

scoot, i'm not defending xou here, or vor or jocko, just saying that i don't understand the "confusion"-part

anyway guess we'll have to await the outcome of esl judges on this one, if it needs to be replayed or whatever

imo, replay, same maps, same lineups...

The just shows you don't understand. Mindset is everything in close games at the higher levels.

First of all, admins by the rules don't have any power to kick people in-game. And no one was giving the admin any crap before the kick happened.

We had 90 seconds of pause just to get vor back in and we had no clue what was going on. Our player free to communicate was simply ignored by xou as he 'wasn't a player and therefore I don't have to answer to him'.

As we didn't get communications with xou, we just figured during the second map that all we could do is make a protest about it after the game.

see comment #90:

Particularly severe abuse cases with extreme statements or the threat of physical violence can result in significantly heavier penalties including the exclusion of the player.

I don't think that applies in this case though..

So do I, but it's up to xou (and hopefully the EMS head admin) to decide whether "shut yourself up you cock sucking faggot" is an extreme statement in the given context.

Yea, it is a rofl line though

have you ever played football or something like that with a referee present?

A referee in a football match wouldn't thrust a verbally abusive player off the field, ask the remaining players whether someone else can take his place and then let him come back in 90 seconds later, though.

Plus, he wouldn't do all this without pausing the match.

Indeed. vor getting kicked had basically two results:
a) one of our stacked players with weapons got eliminated 'for free'
b) everyone else from our team was standing around waiting for the admin to pause before quad because we didn't know what the hell was going on. Remember that xou never actually said during the game that he was responsible for kicking, nor gave any kind of warning, nor said vor had been kicked.

4K got a clean quad because of the combination of a) and b). Considering they received a 10 frag lead because of the first quad, which is the amount of frags they eventually won with, I would say that the quad pickup alone pretty much decided the map, nevermind the psychological impact.

That would equate to the referee suddenly coming to grab and physically keep the goalie from moving (for something said minutes ago) while another team was making a shot at the goal. Do you see anything like that ever happening?

I agree. And I guess football was a less good example, in other sports you would be allowed to field another player after one is removed.

I'm just saying that such "rofl lines" have no place in sports, not that xou's procedure was alright.

Ah well, I interpret that rule as league exclusion as it's talking about in-game and out of game statements. Yet the rule is very unclear about that.

Still debatable is still if the player getting excluded during the match for something said prior to the match.

At the end of the day, the rule is formulated so vaguely that xou's behaviour, despite it seeming completely arbitrary and inconsistent, could possibly be justified by it.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1890683#pid1890683

No, not really. This has nothing to do with any sportsmanship, from both sides (neither admin, nor 4k) The map should have been restarted.

And seriously, we've seen much more shittalk that would have been kick worthy but nothing happened... that was just a wrong decision. And instead of really apologizing, you act like some tard.

But thats basically just how you are, and that yet again shows that you are a dick :/

Xou made a decision and be it wrong or right, it doesn't matter because it cannot be changed.

All I see is pointless whine tbh.

Rematch or STFU! :)

We all knew 4kings where gonna win anyway :)

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1819586

The kettle says "Hi".

that's clanbase.

but i'll say hi anyway :)

=]

You are the biggest pompous idiot I have seen in Quake. Noone cares what you think. :)

cry more please :)

esr's drama ftw!
sorry for saying that, but this is all bullshit. let's have an insight in what is happening here:

we have clearly forbidden trashtalk on pre-match, which might be punished with any means by the esl admins. xou punishes him not right before quad, but 14-15 seconds before quad. the outcome of that quadrun is a 4 frag lead, so it's not the big "now we have to fail"-thing for im.
what's happening next? even after vor rejoins scoot calls the last timeout, leaving enough time for deji to call xou a retarded admin (guys, I think you should be really grateful that xou didnt react on that). compare it to a soccer game: you might disagree with the referee, but once you start flaming against him you shouldnt cry about him kickin you from the game. that really is nothing like sportmanship. so what could you do about it? RIGHT, you say "STOP THIS RIGHT HERE, we want rematch or create a ticket for that game, as the admin is not neutral or it was a very bad decision". this is the very first thing that runs after the wtf through my mind. nothing like "ooh, how bad, we have to continue play with this depressive happening, now we cant take up that 4 frag lead anymore, as we are sooo fucked".

and I can't tell you how much I expected this to happen. if iM had won that game, this wouldnt happen at all. it's like "let's continue playing and afterwards we can flame once we loose". that's not my feeling about sportmanship.

in my humble opinion the punishment should even advance: esl should force a rule to resize teams if something like that happens. like kicking vor without giving im the chance to replace him. just as it is with a lot of other sports out there. people obviously need to learn, that challenging a referee like that is a no-go.

btw challenging that admin, nicely done on the lvl^ stream, calling xou a twaat (or however you spell that). I see, it's good to be highly connected as a shoutcaster to the players, as you may be really neutral on your comments. cg_sarcasm = 0;

if you compare this to football.. will you watch the world cup matches with commentators who are neutral? It's their right to be highly connected to one team and cast the game like that. I'm not defending lvl^ here or anything, just stating the obvious and I'd not like to see 'throwing crap at each other' streamers :)

well, you can't compare this to the wc, as there are no nations involved in this. if you wanna compare this, it will be more like championsleague, and I really hate when the commentators (like mehment scholl, former player) are all like "OOOHHH YES FC BAYERN IS SO GREAT!". it's boring and it's too much of manipulation for my taste.

it wasn't my point to throw anything at lvl^. competition keeps this thing running. but I highly doubt that it is a good idea to whine about xou's behaviour when everybody connected to iM was insulting him.

if you have a problem with his decision, well then you can easily tell him respectfully. but flaming and whining isn't very helpful.

How about we leave lvl^ out of this? What that person said on stream is only his personal opinion and every one is entitled to one.

haven't seen the lvl^ vod yet but it must have come down to the same thing i guess: "wtf - restart - done" and a possible ticket after the game...

yes/no/ok then :s

13 seconds before quad is actually RIGHT before quad, because we don't actually know the quad time. It could've been anywhere between 30-00. Kicking a player even 20 seconds before the first quad simply makes it impossible.

And as a knowledgeable shoutcaster you are, you should know that quad is a little bit more than just the kills you make out of it. The fact that you can get control is at least as important. So as the knowledgeable shoutcaster you are, I assume you have watched the score increase they got out of the control, which have been 10+ frags before the quad after. And as the knowledgeable shoutcaster you are, you should know that that is a lot at that stage of the game.

Deji's response wasn't right but 100% understandable if the admin just puts you into a disadvantage without any notification or anything (Hey if want to compare to football, the ref usually blows his whistle there).

So now we are in the game, map 1, where is our opportunity to say "STOP THIS RIGHT HERE, we want rematch or create a ticket for that game, as the admin is not neutral or it was a very bad decision", when the admin just said we just had to deal with it. Because as knowledgeable as a shoutcaster you are, you probably know that forfeiting maps causes you to get penalty points in the ESL, so just stopping was out of the question.

1. thanks for challenging my shoutcasting skills.
2. I'm no pro, but I'm skilled enough to admit that I may jump to wrong conclusion as any other shoutcaster does. it's still my right to stick to the following conclusion:
3. even with 10+ frags before next quad resulting from control by first quad, that's NOT an impossible task. it may be unfair, or however you want to call it, but as we are using subjunctive mood here anything could have happened. I won't go there, it only brings up the fact that nothing about that can be changed now.
4. deji's response was neither right nor 100% understandable. I expect adult players to act like normal people. if you want to earn respect and being heared by the admin you have to deal with it in another way.
5. do you really think that stopping was out of the question? If you really distrust xou, you'd know that the next admin is going to jump on this matter and tries to give it a proper approach. the esl isn't a place that is ruled by xou and the pure rulesset. you can argue with them. actually, as I was cpl/esl referee for a long time, all admins are told to search for a compromise before judging by rules. xou made a mistake, he admitted it and apologized for it. all of that could have happened without flaming on esr, by just creating a ticket about that on the esl page. no offense, but to me this sounds like an excuse to flame against xou and putting yourself as the little lamb here.

It's none of your business what they post on ESR. Xou's the one who made this news item in the first place and I realize you're new to this site but generally the comment section is for discussion related to the news post, so naturally this gets discussed here. This is the only site that gives a shit about your cup anyway.

If you start criticising other peoples shout casting then you are opening yourself up to the same.

I was the one that said it and I was not supposed to be shout casting at the time, those that were casting didn't say anything as I heard. I joined the channel to talk with nvc really not to appear on stream as such.

Now we could go and point out all your casting errors but its pretty pathetic and I would rather have more people trying and failing then not trying at all.

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Rather selective way of looking at the situation, if Vor was punished for trash talking (There still isn't any definitive statement from xou why he was kicked at all) then obviously Jack should have been punished for the same offense.

Even so, the trash talking was only minor in my opinion, and the admin completely overreacted. And thats really what the issue is here. The admin made a mistake, he directly influenced the potential outcome of the game, and as such the game or at least the map should be replayed. iM's/4K's reaction (or lack of) before, after or during the game is completely irrelevant

I agree that jacko should have recieved the very same treatment as well. but,
4k's reaction is out of question on this. they could have gone for "restart this map" but they aren't forced to. in my eyes this is only normal for a professional match like this, that you don't go for a fair restart if your opponent got punished. not even if you think it was the wrong decision-.
and... im's lack of reaction is a silent approval of xou's decision. actually they reacted in such a manner that I'd never go for a compromise with the flamers. the only thing that should be really irrelevant is: guys flaming after losing instead of going for the normal way through the esl site.

Our lack of reaction is not silent approval in any way, when you have a self-righteous admin in your face telling you to "deal with it", you're pretty much assured of an instant forfeit loss if you try and stop the game. Or that's at least how we felt in the tiny amount of time we had to decide what to do.

I don't know who completely pussified the internet as far as people swearing at each other goes, but the fact you think the admin is somehow justified in even the slightest way with regard to the action he took, completely boggles my mind.

as far as I remember the soccer game between england and germany from wc 1966 is still a win for england. even if it was an obvious mistake by the referee (maybe even on purpose) it doesnt remove his whole credibility.
same goes here: xou made a mistake, he admitted it, it doesnt change the outcome of that match. if the esl headadmin feels like giving iM another chance that's ok. it only proofs my point: you can always talk to the esl guys.

simple question: why the drama on esr if the esl has a report feature? I really don't get that.

If you don't like the "drama" why don't you just stop posting then, seems like you're trying to be a part of it.

You clearly don't know anything about TDM and probably nothing about QL in general if you don't think his decision changed the outcome of the match. DM20 was always going to be close, it's the nature of the map, so when the admin swings the start of the game in favor of one team it's going to mess it up completely. Nevermind the mental effect it will have on our team.

He doesn't even know anything about soccer, sports or sportsmanship and how they work either.

he compares the decision to the goal at wembley and you say he doesn't realise the decision has an impact on the game.

ok.

"xou made a mistake, he admitted it, it doesnt change the outcome of that match."

OK CHIEF.

I'd say that is a misinterpretation on your part.

His point is, as he explained several times, that a referees decision in a game is usually final and doesn't get overturned, and neither does the endresult.. Even if the ref himself admits he made a mistake. (Cf. countless examples in sports)

If he wanted to say the decision did not influence the game, he would not have used "doesn't" but "didn't".
Sure, one could say he is not a native speaker, etc. but I think his other posts clarify his view.



btw, out of curiousity, have you apologized to jck?

thanks for pointing that out, it was what I meant and I'm no nativespeaker :)

Why does this site exist if we have the QL forums?

And personally, I think one of the worst things about football under the rules of the FIFA is that so many matches get influenced by bad referee decisions.

The rules are about as strong and clear as they could be though, the problem is that in Football it's impossible (without technological aid) to see everything from every angle in slow motion (and even then it's difficult).

In Quake, there is no such problems.

For a post claiming some "insight" it's sure lacking actual insight.

Firstly, what happened in the actual game is irrelevant with regards to the application of the rules, so your first argument is utterly moot (not to mention your assessment of the situation is wrong).

Secondly, what is "clearly forbidden" with regards to trash talk?
Swearing? Insults? Aggressive behaviour? Why is "STFU" considered acceptable?

If you can't explain with precision, it's not "clearly forbidden", but simply "forbidden" at the referees discretion.


Your rule advancement would be fine, so long as it is written down and applied universally, thus jck would have been kicked off permanently too. It's well established in sports that you punish both the instigator and the reactor.

This whole situation just goes to show how far off the ESL, the competitive gaming community and "eSports" in general is from reaching anything close to actual sports.

stop this soccer shit, it's called football anyways =))

Don't confuse the yanks son!

Well, when someone uses soccer I just follow, but I've never understood why football fans hate the term soccer so much, it's the actual nickname of the sport after all.

Soccer v Rugger etc.

Secondly, what is "clearly forbidden" with regards to trash talk?
Swearing? Insults? Aggressive behaviour? Why is "STFU" considered acceptable?

oh come on ini.

The rules clearly state insults and not swearing. If you would calm down and took five minutes to actually read them you might find that out for yourself.

So the question is, does "stfu" count as an insult towards a competitor or not.

It's great that you universally declare all football as failed, but mine only said that people get send of the field for insults like the one vor used and probably not for a "shut the fuck up" (as long as that one is not directed at the ref!).
You will have to explain to me in full detail how that is wrong.
keep in mind, I was merely talking about the decision to remove him, not how it was done!


As for sportsmanship, out of curiousity has vor apologized to jck, yet?

I find it interesting that you ask if vor has apologized to jck, but don't ask whether jck apologized to vor. Not like the insulting was one-sided.

Sure it would be nice if jck if apologized, as well. Even though his offense isn't nearly on the same level.

But my point is, that yours is are the team who demand a sincere apology from xou.
So, I think it is reasonable to ask whether your player has done that himself.

I'm perfectly calm, I guess my writing style must lead people to think I'm rattled and unobjective or something.

The comparison is mostly correct, however you're missing one key point. The comments were made prior to the game, by both parties, and as such they should have been prevented from starting with those two players, not had one kicked mid-game.

The referee wouldn't have let the player on the pitch and then retrospectively decided to send him off.

Although it doesn't perfectly fit the situation, since the comments were all made prior to the game and players aren't then allowed to start before being expelled, it is mostly correct.

Has jck apologised to vor? has 4k apologised to iM for being late (didn't look like it)? Does anyone care if anyone apologises to anyone? (I don't)

The point is, iM weren't wrong to continue if the ESL are trying to act as if they are like sports and they are not unsportsmanlike for complaining and wanting a replay.

If 4k agree to a replay then they are being sportsmanlike if not, then they aren't, but that's up to them if they want to be the positive or the negative here.

there is going to be a forced rematch on dm20 tho

first of all i can control my anger and would respect admins anytime since they are real chefs on the pitch, if only me was kicked(i bet ma balls), nobody would complain and sent me into #care here. Anyway sorry vor i was cunt on start - didnt know that this shit would go for so epic story here, but is also good to learn from mistakes in future matches.

So nobody in 4k would have complained?

complain yes, public no

If you had been kicked we would have had a go at xou and agreed a restart.

hard to judge dis, depends if both team capos would agree. I would take it like punishment for my rude behaviour. Well similiar situation was, when zik dropped in LLL vs 4K game... they let us play in 3 for 2 mins...

because u asked from forever can 4th player join or not...ur own fault

selfowned :P

"first of all i can control my anger"

stopped reading here and loled hard

Well... I'm gonna say FUCK U ALL.

Foppa you're my HERO!

\:D/

I'm not a Cool Dude anymore! I'M FUCKING STAR! GTFO.

Well looking how vor played and his score i think it was an adventage that he got kicked for a while.

Hardcore burn by some anonymous french coward, very cutting!

Being kicked by an admin with a personal grudge during the game isn't exactly going to be easy to put to the back of my mind and forget about. It didn't just put me off my game either, it had a knock on effect to the entire team which didn't just go away after the first map.

We were astounded that an admin could take such an absurd action against us. Perhaps he should have recused himself from adminning our game if he has such a clear problem with me.

fnatic vs front won't be played tonight/yesterday. may be friday.

Yeh I'm pretty sure it won't be played yesterday

:DDDDDDDDDDDDDD tomorrow LAL

Moral of the story? Xou gets really upset when people use "cocksucking faggot" as a derogatory term.

lmao this was fun

[21:02:06] [FOPPA]: NO GAME

I'm sorry folks. No game, no lvl^.

frozen again \:@/

If I had a decent picture of the Drama Llama, I would post it now, but unfortunately i dont have any. :(

So... When is Xou gonna get dropped as an admin by ESL? The guy is beyond useless. The insult happened before the map started and he decided to chill out, wait for people to ready up then when the map starts he kicks one player without saying anything... In a semi final no less, he completely mindf*cks iM right at the start of a big game for them and he risks completely devaluing the match spectator wise. Why ? Because he couldnt fathom the idea of warning someone that his language was getting out of hand ? ESL seriously needs to get some decent admins.

xou is a cunt u r cunt i am cunt we all sometimes cunts.. he just had a emo boy day nothing more.. i dont see why u h8 him so much,, he did smthng bad for u it seems.. relax man

cut him some slack!