Yeah, we definitely need more cups. :>

Yes we do. After faceit quitting quake and 125 fps going to half speed. Its VERY welcomed.

Some feedback:
There is two YAUPPER spawns : on YAU and on 4x5hp. If two players spawns there at start : one (YAU) get yau and lg second(4x5hp) die or luckly run to mh side with low hp. All i want to say that must be only one yau spawn)
Key gives you one more route from mh to upper ya, thats it. Walk though door and jump over pit of death is the same dangerous as to jump by the tentacles, and almost the same time.
What will happen when player without key stands under opened door?

What will happen when player without key stands under opened door?

hl3 will be released

Taking 50ish damage / door tries to close, finally getting squished.

I haven't seen the map but wouldn't being able to open/shut doors the other person can't just allow you to get 1 kill then +back with the key?

It's not like it allows you to enter a room where the other person can't enter, it just enables a simpler route from one position to another, that the other player can't use.

exactly...unless it only cuts off 1 second then it lets you easily run away (if it takes them 5 seconds to get to where you came out)

doesn't the key get respawned after 60 seconds though?

No the key does not reappear until the player holding it dies, so there's only one key on the map at the time.

Your dogs willy looks like lipstick.

The map in its current state is really not very good. If you play it in an important game the most liable strategy is standing at lg and waiting for opponent. Thus guy getting LG spawn must feel awesome. On the other hand, one can easily camp around MH/YA area, stack up and run for ages, being out of control! Thus basically no benefit in trying to control both weapons and MH, since you without doubt will give up weapons when going for MH!

Few changes could be easier access from RL to LG (mb teleport and remove corridor?), only being able to hold key for mb 1 minute then it respawns, reduce size of RA room, make lower TP go to MH instead of upper corridor (still oneway).

Don't know if they are sound, but in this state we can look forward to some very slow paced and relatively boring games at qcon!

To be honest, this might be a first mover in this kind of mapstyle, it is just 4-5 years too late!

just make it like ztn

preach it

dis mang got it raight

But will sync listen to our comments to, as you say, 'tweak' the map? Still, I have to say I do like it a lot.

ZTN > elder.

ZTN > iD.

Why change perfection?

http://wiki.quakeworld.nu/Ztn < if this is accurate the creator is a 44 year old named Sten who did the ZTN map we know today in 1997.

For a map to last that long and still be considered the pinnacle of competitive duel that makes him a god damned genius.

so then, a map thats played once in competition is deemed as needing change by... 2/2 +2000 elo players, and that shit is in the quakecon mappool (brescia is larslarslars?). yay for elder deciding bo5s at quakecon

It has been played far more than this small competition, and this is just what I've gathered from it from players who have played it more than I have seen it.

yay for elder deciding bo5s at quakecon

Map selection is pick-pick-drop-drop. It will only be played as the third map if both players want it to be the third map.

I think it's safe to say that elder will only be played as the first or second map, if at all.

quakecon is decided by bo3s?

You still don't know the rules?

Every match in the triathlon will be a 3-mapper. Not bo3, not bo5, but a set of exactly 3 maps.

Each match has the possible outcomes 3:0, 2:1, 1:2, and 0:3.

Teams get 1 point for each map win and 2 points for the overall win. So 3:0 means 5 points for the winning team; and 2:1 means 4 points for the winning team and 1 point for the losing team.

So, it is very similar to bo3, except that someone losing 1:2 still gets 1 point that counts towards his placement in the triathlon.

Yes, these are the rules for CTF, TDM, and duel. So yes, the duel portion of the triathlon will be over reeeeeally quick -- within 3 hours if they want to.

The duel triathlon consists of 4 rounds, each round consists of 3 maps, so the minimum playtime is 4*30 = 120 minutes (assuming that in each round, all matches are played in parallel, which is technically possible). If we're unlucky, we'll see exactly 4 duel matches, i.e. 120 minutes of duel, being streamed.
[edit: Plus the duel grand final for $8,000 which isn't part of the triathlon.]

got 3 lines in and was satisfied, thanks

You're welcome. The plus symbol is below the post.

lol

Fuck it i gave u one

got 3 lines in and was satisfied

something you'd never hear syncerror say

ha

Ash said its quite boring atm. It usually goes down to - stay near the door with key, no need to take red, just bait. Maybe some good play out of control would change it - Base vs Nitrino did pretty well, but it was relaxed prac, need more tourneys.

qcon really going to force players to decide matches on elder?

They don't want any participants this year or smth?

Implying that someone will not get good on the map, even if it will not be considered a good map, to use it as an advantage.

2009, Trinity. Shit map, everyone knew it, but some players simply played it more and got the edge.

maps are considered bad maps if the outcome of playing it is highly random.

If I were to play 10 games on ZTN vs someone who is slightly less good than me on ZTN I will win at least 9.
If I were to play 10 games on Elder vs the same person I might only win 6.

tl;dr: You don't like being schooled by lesser players. )

Suck ur gspot nymp. Ahh there u go, feel better? *Wipes slobber off*

As I said before, I'm not interested in your homoerotic delusions.

Owned by simple, straightfirward weird mathematical logic!

Yeah, he just forgets that ztn has been played 527527526234525 times, while Elder only 83.

True skill shines on new and / or unconventional maps as well.

Just eat itttt just eat iiitttt open up ur calculator and FEEEED IT MOARRR

Only if you learn to read properly first.

You must lean tha bubly wublly. Similar to jiggly wiggly. But oqnt moarrr moar moar rwarrrr!

Oh yes, and when you give up on these disabled monkey-style random keypresses.

I don't forget anything.

ztn has been played so much because the map is heavily balanced within QL. If you look at tourney2 or tourney3 for example, they are not balanced maps for duel -> they do not get played.

Similarly with many of the FFA / TDM maps, they simply are not suited for duel and therefor are not played.

Elder doesn't strike me as a very balanced map.
This will result in a highly random outcome of each game played on it.

Imagine people playing dm17 with rail and with the machinegun disabled. Obviously the guy who obtains rail first will have a large advantage until he fucks up and his opponent obtains this advantage.
This could easily lead in the 1st game being won 20 - 0 by player A and the 2nd won 20 - 0 by player B even though they are equally skilled.
Now elder is not "That insanely crap", but it's not really balanced either... perhaps if they remove the lava it might be better (reduces overall risks on the map which in general will get games closer)

The lava???

How many games have you played on it?

More than 1.
But it's irrelevant, even without any games played on it and just glancing over what a map looks like I can still see how the games on it will be played out.

The lava being there is just a part though. Another part is that the door opens way too slow to have any advantage from having a key (at least if you have some map awareness).
The 'moving hallway' moves way too slow in general and will be only used in ways which are not intended.
Rail is too 'closed off' and dangerous to take, it's also on the wrong side of the map (imho).
LG on the other hand is too easy to take and to defend.
Plasma area (on lan) should also be fairly easy to defend (given that the opponent will come either from below or through the slow ass hell door).
Keeping timing on mega is awkward... etc.

The only part that I do somewhat like is the strange hallway from 'above plasma / mega -> the RL below mega'. Which does give a nice dynamic to that part of the map.

"More than 1,"

: D

Checked. 3. C'mon..



"Another part is that the door opens way too slow to have any advantage from having a key"

Simply not true. Also, you can "clipslide" under it.
If you have the key, you don't have to do the tentacle jump, which makes you pretty vulnerable and good if you are retreating from the lg-side of the upper corridor.


"The 'moving hallway' moves way too slow in general and will be only used in ways which are not intended."

a) To avoid jump pad, if opponent camps in RA room.
b) It makes sound, so it can be used as a fooling attempt.


"Rail is too 'closed off' and dangerous to take, it's also on the wrong side of the map (imho)."

It's fine. Since rail is a big advantage, it's ok to have it in a risky spawn place.
Wrong side? Never occured to me in 45 games. There's always a time when you switch sides and can go for it.


"LG on the other hand is too easy to take and to defend."

That's when good rockets and plasma (if not rail) comes handy.


"Plasma area (on lan) should also be fairly easy to defend (given that the opponent will come either from below or through the slow ass hell door)"

Or he rocket jumps from RA room, or using (one of) the tentacle jumps.


"Keeping timing on mega is awkward"

Why?

like I said it's irrelevant how many games I played.

You'll see when people play it enough, eventually I'm right.

Ofc it's not irrelevant.

Ohhh but it is. You no see see ever ever to the end end.

maybe youre wrong. maybe there is more depth than you can gleam from "glancing over" it.

nope ;)

how can you know, when you don't know what you don't know?

because I understand what I do know.

You never have good points. Thsts why i just randomly respond. Doesnt matter whats said EVER :) always about just 'wining'to over being correct, or referencing correctly anything anyone has said, except yourself of course :)

Which is why you should go check your gspot wih my smashed wmo, is almost always the most original way to respond :)

No.
You just smashed so many mice on your head (this alone wins you the Grand Prize of Stupidity, really - the fact that you showing it off and seemingly being proud of it just raises it into new heights) that your braincells might completely vanished.
Your life may be miserable or not, but either case, this is a pathetic way to get attention. It's like you can't do anything else to make another person recognize you, which is really sad. The poetic question is; are you disabled or desperate? Or both?

Dude, originality is one of the things you lack. Your arguments are non-existent and your responses are mostly awkward, mistyped, incomprehensible, annoying or just plain ridiculous.

Anyhow, welcome on my ignore list.

You shoukdnt of ttied anally so hard to feel the pehnus :)))

Also i take no pride in originality, as that's usually somehing people aim for.

[rant]you dont have to play many games to see this map is not optimized and is only added to qcon mappool because syncerror made it, not because is new. Adding new items to duel is also kind of experimental since you guys been playing duels without those items for the last 15 years.

When you make a map you might wanna test it with good players so you can see what's going on in areas surrounding important items and the way spawns behave. Then you can make fixes and changes before starting to model up stuff on them and apply textures and what not.

Not saying the map is bad, I like to see new maps coming up, it's just the qcon mappool is kind of idiotic, 5 maps and all of them host a rather slow paced game. Said it back in the day for dreamhack. Mappool should attract diversity, you should be able to pick a map depending on your playstyle and your rival's as well (Spectator wise is also better). Toxicity and aerowalk aren't in the mappool, kind of insulting having elder over great maps like these.

all major tournaments should have 7 map pool imho.

- Sinister
- Blood Run
- Furious Heights
- Lost World
- Toxicity
- Aerowalk
- Elder

but why do i care anyway?[/rant]

I'm not saying Elder is perfect, but it has great potential. It probably needs a little tweaking. All I'm saying is that I'm not clear on what should be changed yet, we need a few hundred pro games on it to realize it for sure.

I agree that we should have a 7 pool, Tox included.

is only added to qcon mappool because syncerror made it, not because is new.

Wait, wasn't that the result of a poll within the players/casters? Would they really vote for it for this reason?

c'mon... elder is a QL map from one day to another, unlike anything from this site http://ws.q3df.org

I assure you that if anyone else made elder it wouldn't have made it inside the game that fast.

I certainly wouldn't dispute that.

Bloodrun is so deeply impressed into the Quake Live dueler's psyche not because it's balanced, but because of its origins. It was there when Quake dueling was crawling into existence. When players migrated from Quake to Quake 2 they brought their maps with them, and did so when they migrated to Quake 3, Quake 4, and Quake Live. The desire for familiarity has reincarnated ZTN's map in every iteration of Quake--not because it's an exceedingly well balanced map, but because it's richly familiar and decent.

When new players are brought into the dueling sphere they are forced to play maps that those before them had been playing. Each new "generation" of duelists is trained on the old stomping grounds. Incidentally Bloodrun was one of those.

Not every map survives this journey. Some maps become inherently broken when reincarnated in another game. They then proceed to die (i.e. they no longer get played, and they become forgotten). Whilst some maps get adopted by external forces: tournaments, and masses of new players.

Tournaments because they force players to familiarize themselves with the new map. From this forced familiarization blooms either love or hate. If it's hate, the map is dropped when the tournament drops it. If it's love, the map continues to be played regardless of the tournament sponsor and continues to live.

Masses of new players because they have no preconceived notation of what they should be playing, and the existing population doesn't have the authority to prevent the play of maps they deem unplayable. These "unplayable" maps are gradually assimilated--they rise from the dead, and live (begrudgingly to some).

If all the iconic maps for duel didn't exist the duelists would be playing other maps, and as time goes on they would become so steeped in tradition that if you were to delve into this alternate universe and propose our "mighty" maps like Bloodrun, Aerowalk, or Furious Heights they would decline to play them. Bloodrun would be touted as too slow, unbalanced, and favoring the out-of-control player; Aeorwalk would be too unbalanced, and random; and Furious Heights would be demonized for the awkward placement of the rail-gun. All of this would be said, and at the end of the day they would go back to playing their familiar maps.

I also want to point out that getting immediate feedback from top-rated players about a new map can be undermining. A top-rated player is inherently biased, and would fervently lobby to introduce maps that suit their individual style of play--their way of thinking about the game--whilst condemning those maps that question the validity of their play-style.

Lastly, if your outcomes appear random on these newer maps could that not be due to both players not knowing how to react rather than the map itself being "random"?

I'm happy to see Elder being enforced by a tournament and these small cups, even though it is rather quirky. At best we'll get a new map added to the duelist's repertoire, and at worst we'll get a bit of excitement at Quakecon 2015.

- cmss

so your main point is that players want to stick to what they know.
And you use Furious Heights in there as an example?
Isn't that map new for QL, and considered to be good?

Anyway, sure it is possible that outcomes are random due to players not knowing how to play yet, that passes fairly fast though. When it passes you'll see that my comments were accurate ;)

t7 is almost 5 years old, that is far from new.

When furious heights was released there was little criticism though and it got accepted reasonably fast.
While his story would imply a very slow adoption rate.

It got accepted because the alternatives at the time were t4, t9, and trinity lol. It simply became popular through necessity and it being a good map is a side effect. :)

When looking at t9 for example players had a lot of doubt about that map... It's still an okish map, but the teleport dance should not be in.
T4 imho is still a good map.
Trinity was the last qcon forced duel map though?
It had around the same progress in the game as what Elder will have...

"Bloodrun would be touted as too slow, unbalanced, and favoring the out-of-control player;"

Explain how bloodrun is unbalanced? And how the hell can a map be favouring the out of control player? The player in control is always the advantaged one. He's the one in control!
A map that allows the out of control one to regain control is a balanced one.
That's exactly the reason dm6 is a joke at high levels.
And a slow map may be bad ony to spectators, and only a part of them.
We are constantly bragging about quake being different from other games, and then the ideal map is a frenetic aimfest? Piss off.

Yes. Listen to this man, he speaks the truth.

CZM didn't have a problem making comebacks on dm6
https://youtu.be/LKV1WFkwRK8

https://youtu.be/eqKwLZXOrPE
https://youtu.be/rRScPZsXJpc

15 minute matches in Q3 != 10 minute in QL.

dm6 in QL is very very 'on the edge' all the time... Lose 1 fight badly and you're almost certainly screwed.
Of course there are some minor things to note, but in general for most players.... the guy who loses the first fight and spawns a bit bad loses the game.

Also 100dmg Rail.

dm6 is amazing at the highest level, a bit of a joke anywhere besides the highest level though

Talk that way about ZTN again and I will kill you.

ow that I don't mind that in regular games.
However in the largest tournament of the year I would not like to see luck play a major role due to the tournament layout.

Btw, atm there hardly are any lesser players than myself ;)
I've played too little and am on too broken hardware hehe :D

qcon really going to force players to decide matches on elder?

Map selection is pick-pick-drop-drop. It will only be played as the third map if both players want it to be the third map.

I think it's safe to say that elder will only be played as the first or second map, if at all.

That's fine.

yo at quakecon whoever has to play elder just have a 1v1 gaunt only match, no items, just meet in the middle near rail and gaunt it out each spawn.

Enable headshots for extra skillz.

I for one love that soundclip

Nobody "has" to play elder, it will either be picked or it won't be picked. It won't be randomly assigned to any match.

map is so hideous, even with picmip0, hope it doesn't end up in a final or semis. that being said, some other maps such as stonekeep and etc by Sync are quite good (playability-wise and looks-wise)

I have to be honest. I initially was very skeptical and I still am, but what I've seen so far has shed some light to my perspective. The map has shown some promise. Some brilliant and admirable comebacks, also attempts, happened in the 125fps Elder one map cup. For many the concern is about the map progressing into a very slow pace, but the comebacks I've seen has shown that aggression is an acceptable and efficient strategy due to the unique dynamic of the map.

Rail gives huge advantage (more than key) and it is on lg side. So if you spawn on lg, wait till 2:00, take rail and kill enemy)
imho rail must be somwhere in the middle (near GL, behind grill). So both players can take it after 2:00.

Noone walk trough obelisk cause it is very narrow here, and from ya lower you need to take jumppad to get portal.
So maybe you need to cut obelisk, make at least jumpable from ya, make exit closer to portal.