jitter? prediction? lod? cost?

Jitter - there will be a prototype which I will test, if people let me know what the main mouse mats are to test, I'll buy them.

Prediction - Off

LOD - 1.5mm - 2mm (aiming for 1.5mm)

Cost - not sure yet, £20-£25, something like that, maybe cheaper. I should have more a more accurate price soon.

BTW, the switches I was going to go with Omron D2F-01F. But can use pretty much any, if people have a preference.

sounds l33t :)

if people let me know what the main mouse mats are to test

icemat, qck variants, goliathus speed, puretrak talent, and artisan hien hard (I believe this is their most popular mat).

Ok shouldn't be a problem. I also have:
Qpad CT
Roccat Taito
Mantis control (no longer made but I think its the same as the goliathus control but with a different design?)

allsop raindrop , SS SX.

Buttons are usually the last thing I worry about when considering a mouse, really. If anything I prefer no side buttons.

I'm assuming you've found some OEM shell? I'd really like to see pictures of it.

See OP, sorry one of them is a bit blurry.

wow, looks great!

Thanks, glad you like it :)

I need side buttons. They're very useful and I don't consider buying mice with only 3 buttons.

It looks like their cheaper mouse(velocity) has 3 buttons and the aurora has 5 so they're pleasing everyone.

I like side buttons as long as they're placed properly. The mouse I have isn't too bad, but because of the way I grip my mouse, sometimes when I'm doing some crazy shit in CPM, I press mouse4, which is my PTT in Ventrilo. It's a lot better than when I was forced to use ctrl, though.

As long as mouse4 is placed properly, and there's good drivers/utilities for the damn thing, I'm all for it.

Ok, cheers. I have the same opinion about side buttons, hate it when they get in the way, or when they're so far out of the way that you end up having to be some kind of hand contortionist to press them xD

- 50g weight without cord, 80g with cord
- exact centre sensor position
- nice quality
- cord is not stiff, its nice and flexible
- scrollwheel feels good

my tought even if you don't care i think i have good knowledge about mice so here you go :

- sides button would increase mouse weight.
- it would be better if mouse skates were perfect circles (and not stuff like wmo) WITH NO SHARP EDGES AND AT LEAST 0.8mm thick, max 1.2mm thick.
- Don 't waste to much energy/time trying to find the best mouse cord, the best you could do is a totaly naked wmo cord sticked with glue.
- Scroolwheel of wmo is very good IF you delet the armored rubber plastic that is on it.
- position the sensor like the wmo.
- side shape of the mouse should be at least |_| or \_/ .
- LOD is a problem only if it is realy super high 5mm+

- CPI is a matter of sensor, but if you want it to perform good everywhere i think 1000 dpi is the minimum, according to phoon.us/mouse playing 1920x1200 at sensi 5 p/y 0,022 and fov 90 you need over 830 CPI. Just saying but for me 450 would be way enough. Depends what is your audience target. SO here come the big deal. CPI switch, no CPI switch etc, button switch/driver switch... reliability if you go for CPI switch etc etc

Good luck =)

Thanks! Any opinions/ideas are appreciated. I agree with most of what you say :)

Looks kinda like a WMO. Looks interesting.

nice to see someone taking initiative. i prefer side buttons but shape and sensor are more important

Side buttons are a must for me, DA & Copperhead placement was good.

Shape looks fine, like a cross between the DA & Pilot & WMO.

I don't like the look of the mousewheel though :S

Yeah, mouse wheel isn't a looker, but it works nice :)

Posted this recently. Got someone to code firmwares? If not, maybe Razer or Steelseries (or CM with experience of 3090) might sell that service to you.

http://www.overclock.net/mice/1143062-mousema...st15321533


This would obv. be an expensive mouse and that seems out of your scope. Still most of my suggestions should still be applicable.

Pretty good ideas, it would cost a lot to make a mouse like that though. But a lot of the things in the list aren't too hard. Its just the interchangeable shells and the PCI-E card which would start getting expensive. From what I have learned from the factories, it'd cost about $16,000+ to make, without the PCI-E card. It would come with a couple of shells. Some things like the selectable mouse feet probably wouldn't be worth the hassle though. Also getting it to weigh 90g, when it will need all that plastic, would be really hard, unless you mean without the cord, then not so bad.

i think you should have an option for side buttons, because some people like it, some doesn't.
I think you need to have that marked as a custom service to the client, feed them with pre baked models that can be tweaked as such the customer desire.
Braided chord would give it a classy touch.
Shape looks great!

If a mouse mold already has side buttons, its not hard to release two versions, one with side buttons, one without. Since this one doesn't have side buttons, its really hard to add them (pretty much have to mold new parts = $$$$)

I do have another sample which would be able to do that, but it needs a fair amount of tweaking. I was thinking of doing that if this one worked out well.

Braided cord. Hmm, I thought people didn't like them? I've seen some people where they've used the mouse bungie and its ripped the hell out of the braided cords Oo But I agree, it does look a lot classier, and not a problem to add it.

humm, braided chords on mouse bungee, that could give some trouble, yes.

also i posted smth up there, but i think it stays better here:

- it would be better if mouse skates were perfect circles (and not stuff like wmo) WITH NO SHARP EDGES AND AT LEAST 0.8mm thick, max 1.2mm thick.

I agree with the statement about the sharp edges and thickness.
I think perfect circles would work best for an hard mouse pad.
Friction force only depends on the friction coefficient and the normal force to the contact. Small circular mouse feet wouldnt be good for soft mouse pads because, depending on the force you apply on the mouse, it could create a high contact pressure between the bodies, causing more deformation on the mouse pad surface, thus dissipating more energy and creating higher drag, also would shorten your mouse pad life. Something a little bigger than the wmo mousefeet would be my best bet. The secret lays on the mouse pad/mouse skatez mechanical properties, Elasticity Modulus and Poisson ratio.

EDIT: yes new molds = shit ton of €€€, it would be feasible by cutting the holes via milling operation, but that would have its costs too...

At the moment I'm just asking them to make the mouse feet 1mm thick, with rounded edges, it should be alright for this mouse.

The little guides which go around the feet are still part of the mold and changing the size of the feet (unless they get smaller) could be hard.

But thanks for the info about the mouse feet friction, I see what you mean. Its something I'll keep an eye out for.

Make sure the mouse feet are made of real PTFE, not some PP or ABS that they claim to be PTFE :P

Yep :) Part of the spec list already:
5) 1mm thick PTFE mouse feet, with smooth/rounded edges

Heres the full list (I've deleted some confidential/unimportant things though):

1) Plug and Play (no drivers needed)
2) DPI select button, with colour LED on the mouse wheel to indicate DPI change - off / blue / red / purple
3) Omron D2F-01F main button switches
4) 500hz USB polling rate, possible to change USB rate with HIDUSBF if needed.
5) 1mm thick PTFE mouse feet, with smooth/rounded edges
6) 1.5mm - 2mm LOD, aim for 1.5mm [...]
7) Drift control / angle snapping turned off (or set to minimum) in the IC.
8) Transparent mouse wheel (for DPI LED) and black tinted transparent base
9) Top part of mouse shell painted with 'soft rubber feel' coating
[...]
11) USB plug painted a bright colour, so people know which port the mouse is plugged into (optional... not important)
12) Everything else except the IC = the same as the sample

With Avago ADNS-3090 IC and DPI steps: 400/800/1800/3500

Here's just my opinion on it:

-If this mouse is going to be directed towards hardcore gamers then you shouldn't paint the USB plug a bright color as I'm sure they know where to put it and a bright color would look stupid in comparison to a black mouse
-Implementing side buttons would be a good idea but you should make sure to use Omron D2FC-f-7n switches
-Additionally regarding the side buttons, ambidextrous is a bad idea as a right handed user is probably never going to use the buttons on the right side or is even able to and vice versa for left handed users. About 10 percent of the population is left handed so I suppose you could make 10 percent of your mouses for left handed users. Additionally adding more buttons which will never be used will unnecessarily increase the weight.
-Having a DPI change button right next to the mouse wheel isn't a good idea at all imo since it could be accidentally hit easily. Additionally hardcore gamers aren't going to change their dpi/mouse hz after they've found values they're comfortable with. My suggestion is to do what the abyssus did and put 2 switches on the bottom to toggle between different dpi values and hz values. For the hz values you should have options for 125/500/1000 hz (or maybe even just 500 and 1000 if 1000 isn't stable).
-The colored scroll wheel indicating DPI is completely unnecessary imo since it would get annoying as illustrated by the annoyance of some Deathadder 3g users and it would be unneeded if dpi switches were put on the bottom of the mouse
-Make sure not to make the mouse feet too big as people with a high sensitivity won't have enough control, especially if they have a hardpad.
-#4 would be irrelevant if you had the hz switch on the bottom
-Make sure to use an optical mouse wheel encoder as ttc mechanical encoders are not nearly as accurate.
-Make sure that the rubber coating is of a high quality and a uni formal thickness over the mouse as you don't want what happens to the DA 3.5G BE to happen (rubber tends to come off after a couple months, or even sooner)
-Possibly use a texture similar to the Zowie EC1 over entired mouse instead of the rubber as apparently it works very well at preventing sweaty hands (which is the whole purpose of the design lol)

I hope I've been helpful :)

i agree, try to be as simple as possible.

Also the best option to get the lightest mouse is to set CPI switch via firmware and then when saved, the CPI remains same = plug and play.

50g weight will be a challenge i think but this would be one of it's quality.

also 1000hz all the way, no need 500hz switch.

1000hz is overkill and results in unstable hz, while slowing your pc down and taking too much power out of a single usb port, no matter how good the pc is.
That matters a lot if you play in a laptop for example, which is what every tournament uses.

Actually, 500hz is unnecessary for most sensors but w/e. 125/500/1000 switch

1- Ok, I thought it might be a nice touch, doesn't really cost anything. Theres just been times when I've gone round the back of my pc and every single usb plug is black, and its hard to tell whats plugged in where. A lot of the mouse companies mold their own usb plug, but the next best thing is to make it another colour. But tbh unless its really cheap and easy to do, it won't happen anyway :)

2- Thanks for the part number!

3- Ok, thanks

4 - I agree with you but I'll have to ask how hard it is to make a hole in the bottom of the mouse. Tbh its probably not a big enough concern if it costs a lot. I know exactly what you mean though and it would be nice. I can get quite a stiff button for the DPI change, which would stop the DPI changing from a light tap. For the USB hz, I may go with what someone else mentioned, a small downloadable exe on our website which will allow the user to set their desired Hz in the firmware. Depending on how far it can be taken, there might also be an option to set the DPI and remap/disable the DPI button, and to disable the mouse wheel light.

5- See above

6- Ok, I think the feet on this mouse are ok. but yeah its something I'll keep in mind for any mouse.

7- Ok

8- Alright, I'll ask, but this mouse wheel is nice, I didn't want to mess it up.

9- Yeah, will be testing that.

10- Ok, from what I know, the zowie EC which is for sweaty hands is the white one, and its just glossy white plastic isn't it? Oo

My apologies, my information was a bit off. The difference between the EC1 & the EC2 is their size and the difference in coating is dependent on the chosen color, in which the choices are black and white. The black coating is a rubbery finish which increases grip while the white finish has a "popular smooth coating which reduces sweaty palms". A good combination for surface materials would be to have smooth rubber on the side, just like the Deathadder, while the top of the mouse could be similar to the EC white's material.

Actually the part about accidentally hitting dpi button is bullshit.
A4tech mouses have that button and I have never in 2 years hit that. It just doesnt happen at all.

I agree. The logitech mice have their dpi buttons there too and they're fine.

I don't know where you take your ideas from, but D2FC-f-7n is I think the crapiest switch that you can buy. I did exchange them myself in Deathadder (after 5 months of regular 2 hour a day playing, multiclick phenomena LOL) and replaced with old buttons from old logitech (old model). When I looked into PDFs it occured that simply these buttons from old mouse are for higher current but with the same force needed to press them, with golden contacts inside.

He wants to see how it fares since the Japanese omrons are very expensive.

he should use good buttons, 400 dpi sensor, ability to run 500 hz or best set is as deafult, smaller hausing (look at my tread about WMO in hama http://esreality.com/post/2235523/wmo-sensor-in-hama-housing/ ), side buttons that you can hide ( I would not use them, I use finger grip ). This way what he is doing mouse will be expensive. And no compromises , simple as possible, like WMO that was not intended to be gaming mouse.

When I say expensive I mean this: http://www.esreality.com/post/2219235/#pid2219235

Make the steps 450/900/1800/3500 if necessary. Rather have the first 2 like that then having issues like some manufacturers.

"Although its shape is ambidextrous, its mostly designed for right handed users due to the side buttons being on the left only. However, if you use it left handed, the side buttons shouldn't get in the way significantly."

Putting buttons only on the left side means the mouse is designed for right handers, and as a left handed user I'd probably not switch from the wmo or abyssus. Symmetrical placement on both sides is ok, no side buttons to hit accidentally is better. If you'd like left handed quake player to test the mouse, mail one to Amsterdam and I'm happy to oblige.

As a side note, it appears some reviewers of razer mice on amazon are unaware that adjusting sensitivity is possible without changing dpi.

get real

Whats the problem? I'm not doing this by myself, the brand will be part of a long established company which is well used to this kind of business.

fatality? :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzhZwrF6J6M

"It's holiday, It's holiday, It's holiday ..."

"Tawdy, Tawdy, Tawdy"...

a cross between WMO, IE3.0 and razer. pretty awesome tbh. will never sell.

EVERYONE ON ESR IS INTERESTED, BUT IT WILL NEVER SELL?

it will sell if hit has: 1. shiny lights, 2. 6000000dpi laser, 3. big company marketing
afaict it has neither

side buttons are e-fucking-ssential!

Personally I think side buttons aren't needed and they add weight, so 3 button is my preferance (use WMO)

Good luck if you are actually going to produce this. I'd buy one if it had no problems.

Side buttons are only an issue in certain games that have a lot of actions, and in general browsing. I dodge the browsing bullet by using firegestures, but I generally switch mice based on which game I am going to play.

RTS gamers favor claw grip, which makes the center button mostly useless. There isn't really a need for more than 2 mouse buttons in SC/SC2 anyway. Most of the mice that try to market as gaming mice (for SC2 or WoW or such) are just gimmicks. =P

It seems nice !

From my point of view, here is the market for now (I took the most popular mice):
small hands & palm grip : WMO, Xai, kinzu, MX300/G1
small hands & claw : abyssus, salmosa, WMO, kinzu, MX300/G1
small hands & finger : WMO, Xai, kinzu...
medium hands & palm : MX518/G400
medium hands & claw : MX518/G400(?) (IO1.1 maybe, didn't test this one ?)
medium hands & finger : WMO, Xai, Kinzu...
big hands & palm grip : IE3.0, DA
big hands & claw grip : MX518/G400(?)
big hands & finger : WMO, Xai, kinzu...

From what I see, there is no mouse for medium/big and claw grip, mostly because the side of the mice (WMO, Xai, kinzu, abyssus...) are too small to put the ring/pinky or because there is prediction (MX518/G400).

No, I have large hands(6'8") and use palm grip for FPS and claw/finger for RTS. The DA shape is bad for me. I currently use the 3.0 because the sensor is more accurate than the DA, but I have to tape stuff on it to be able to grip it:
http://s.sk-gaming.com/image/album/893533/db7770e734021a0c.jpg
http://s.sk-gaming.com/image/album/893533/9dcccdd6a9f21a0d.jpg

The 518/g400 shape is the best for me to palm grip but bad for RTS/claw/finger grip. Same with the IE 1.1 but the 1.1 has worse grip than the 518/g400.

Xai(and all other steelseries mice) gave me trouble for palm grip. Partly because the front of the mice is so low to the ground so there's no room for the ring finger there unless you have really small hands. The slight contour of the mouse on the right side also hindered grip and made my hand cramp.

I LOVED the rubber side grips of the first razer mice, ie: copperhead. They were good for palm grip & claw/finger grip. Just the laser was glitchy and very low malfunction speed.

Personally I find myself really putting pressure onto the left-hand side of my mouse with my thumb. I use a Wheel Mouse Optical so theres no buttons there that I can press. And I prefer doing this. I do this with my MX518 too since the buttons are above the thumb-grip. I'd prefer to keep it like this rather than have two big fuck off buttons there in place like the Deathadder (Mind you my thoughts on that may change sometime soon).

I always miss the side buttons since i switched to abyssus

Side buttons are a must-have for me.

well it s not for CS or QL pros.

Not that I want to ruin it all, but if in the quake scene, the shit mice/200grams things with 12 leds and a 7853 dpi superdiatronical optilaser sensor are an oddity, the sc scene is a fucking mess full of retards who use züber high dpi shit mice, tweak their driver sens, tweak the windows sens and then tweak the ingame sens before going " oh fuck yeah, that 3000dpi mouse ( that is effectively working as a 717 dpi mouse after 2 passes of discarding inputs and a third one to multiply them by 3) is so much better and I don't need a lamp on my desk anymore, it's awesome "

If that would be your intended customer base, you're in deep trouble with such a "straight" design.

I agree, thats why I have asked for a tinted transparent base and light on the scroll wheel. The base actually extends up the sides so it would look a little bit like the WMO which has the transparent sides. I think it will look quite classy.

Personally I don't care about lights as long as they don't blind me or reflect in the monitor. But most people will expect it to have something about it instead of just plain black, and theres only so much that can be done. So I'll work to keep the lights subdued but still 'pretty'.

rarely any sc2 player uses side buttons ( and those retarded mice with 50 side-buttons are forbidden in tourneys anyway )

i like that mouse, if i could change color i'd use it! :DD

I use them on SC2 as a Zerg with my Deathadder 2013. They're perfect since I bind them as Control Group 9 and 10 for Hatcheries and Queen injects.

That way I can focus on 1-8 for combat units specifically. Here is my setup:

1 - Zergling Ultralisk
2 - Battle Queen/ Hydralisk
3 - Roach<> Corrupter/Mutalisk
4 - Mutalisk/Broodlord
5 - Infestor/Viper
6 - Baneling
7 - Swarm Host
8 - Overlord/Seer
Mouse Button 4,5 - Inject Queens, Hatcheries

So they have their uses :)

Sounds and looks great.

As for selling well, you really need the marketing and support behind a brand. I had the same idea as well as funding, but I choose to back out after realizing that a mouse like that would only really sell to those interest in sensor quality and performance. Brand recognition, lights, and shit tons of Dee pee eye seems to be the path of success in this day and age. Im not saying it's impossible, but you're going to really have to push your brand or start out with a pretty low price without even factoring in the warranty and what not.

Sensor wise, the 3090 is probably the most expensive optical sensor you can buy in bulk. While the actual tracking is solid, it doesn't seem to perform well (as far as max IPS goes) out of the box. (lower LOD seems to worsen the max performance)

I would recommend the much much cheaper and newer ADNS-3050, but I'm really unsure about the sensor itself as I've only tried Logitech's custom 3055. Tracking performance of the 3055 wasn't the best (Sensitive and jittery at higher CPI settings on most cloth pads), but it does have fairly good max IPS performance (130~). They had the scalable lift off set to where it's around 3mm on most surfaces. Hopefully the custom lens is to blame :P

Not all is well in mouseland :(

Thanks for the post.

I won't be buying 10,000 of these mice or anything like that at first, I don't intend to smash the market or anything, but just to offer a nice mouse to those who want it, and just to make sure when people do try it, it doesn't have any big problems which makes the brand look bad.

I haven't asked for a price on the 3050 sensor, but I did ask for the pixart 3305 (zowie mico sensor), which I know is a good price, and I can offer the 1600dpi version later which has a higher IPS capability. Personally I'd probably like the 3050, but it does need more dpi, like you say, not because it really needs it, but because people think they do. Sadly.

looks pretty good. My concerns are build quality, since it looks WMO-ish (very cheap plastic which retains sweat), and the target group.

There are plenty of tested gaming mice which have the same or similar characteristics that you posted, and after what happened with puretrack no one will risk trying a new product if the company is not razer, logitech or steelseries.
I mean, it's already very hard to technically top an abyssus, salmosa, logitech mini optical or a WMO, but it's almost impossible to achieve a better reputation than those.

I haven't searched the market like you most probably did, but my suggestion is that there isn't a single modern mouse made both for office use and gaming.
Here you have 2 options: a 2.0 IME, which at its release date (2000) had that "premium" look and feel for both uses, or a 2.0 WMO, dirty cheap but that coincidentally works for gaming due to its sensor, shape and weight.

In any case, the main target should be office use so it actually sells. Also it should be as simple as it gets, and it shouldn't cost more than $40/$20.

Nowadays if you want a nice mouse for work you'll end buying an expensive microsoft mouse, which continued that "premium" concept they introduced but wireless and with laser sensors, and for gaming an abyssus or other shiny and childish mouse.
That stereotype is not needed really. Actually a good selling point for gamers would be that it looks....adult, which is not the same as sober or plain black; especially for SC2.


now on topic, lol: if you go for the more expensive/premium office option it must have 5 buttons. If you prefer the cheap one, 3 buttons is fine.
And yes, focus on SC2 on the gaming aspect.

and if you want to just earn money, which you should like we all do, just sell $5 mice.

Nice idea, but the problem is most retail websites split their gaming mice and office/home mice into two different sections, which isn't a huge problem, but also I think (like you said) a lot of office/home users want wireless.

BTW build quality is good, its so simple I don't see it falling apart any time soon. The PCB will use high quality switches etc. As for sweaty or dry hands etc, the shape is naturally quite grippy anyway, so I don't think its going to be a huge problem.

This may be the other mouse which could be released later:
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8495/mb2yk.jpg

Its not ready yet (molds haven't been made), but it looks nice and is 5 buttons. It also looks quite 'adult' without looking boring, so I'm quite looking forward to seeing what its going to be like.

I've always thought it would be really great if a company were to make a totally modular gaming mouse. Something where you could buy the bottom piece (basically just a flat plastic sled with mouse feet on it (preferably clones of some other mouse's feet, so that it would be easy to find replacements)), and then have an option of a few different top shells, sensors, and switches. I guess you would have to be a hell of an engineer though to design something like that without it costing a fortune to manufacture or being very limited in choices.

As for side buttons, I don't care either way as long as they don't add significant weight and they are well-placed. I don't use them personally, but it doesn't factor into my buying decisions that much.

Cool, its possible to do that ofc, but is more like something logitech would do, since IIRC they have their own factories etc. I suppose they kind of done it already with the G9(x). Also its hard to make it lightweight like that. So probably not going to happen any time soon, if at all, unfortunately.

Also, if you go through with this: For the love of God, please don't put the screws underneath the mouse feet. I don't know why companies do that shit, but it drives me nuts. Every time I've taken apart a mouse I feel like I'm trying to be a fucking brain surgeon getting the feet off without ruining them and having to waste 10 bucks on a new set.

Plus they never feel right again once they've been pulled off.

having to waste 10 bucks on a new set.

There's your answer.

First - This mouse only has one screw and its not under the mouse feet.

Second - I don't know why you would want to open this mouse, there won't be any weights inside it to remove, its already going to be light weight. I suppose you could cut the LEDs off or something if you didn't like them (they'll be set to 'off' for 400dpi though), but ofc it would void your warranty.

I would want it heavier....

you're special

that's what all my math teachers said since middle school.

My ideas (sorry for my english):
-mouse skates similar to those of xai but all 3 identical shape
-two cords in box, one braided and one not , could be easly changed but it means that you allow to open mouse without voiding warranty.
-dpi change like in zowie mico-hold 2main buttons and scroll up/down.
-2 switches underneath(similar to abyssyus) but to adjust force needed to press two main buttons.
-mouse can have symmetrical body and still have side buttons: make holes on both sides, sidebuttons pcb can be rotated 180* or taken out and give two seals to cover unused holes. This way mouse is for right handed, lefties and for people who dont want side buttons.

If you dont want to allow to open mouse without voiding warranty then give braided cord and side buttons on left side as default and people who whant to change it gonna need to fck the warranty, i dont care about it as most pros i think anyway.

Personally, I absolutely need at least two side/thumb buttons.

Good luck with your project. Very interesting.

Thanks :)

Side-buttons for claw, yes

Placement:
Left side button:
3/4ths forward, to clear for a 45 degree (and 90 obviously) angled thumb grip. It's also good if a flat out thumb can JUST fit below it.

Right side button: Bear with me here.. (my own custom mouse solution is #1).

#1 Retract ring-finger to click.
High up and at 6/10th forward or middle, in the path of/mid-under ring-finger. It MUST be flush (or near no protrusion) against the upper mouse surface and placed just below a sharp-ish tipping point/ridge to the side (IE not so visible in topviews) so not to press it by accident (the pressure point being mostly in the fingertip helps out too). The lower side of the button can protrude more.
Also it's better (than my setup) if the button would be around 2+cm wide, to suit all ring-finger position styles.

or..

#2. Slide ring-finger back to click.
Simply low in the middle between ring and little finger (but this restricts the ring-fingers claw resting position to only the forward area.

[edit: clarified text]

You might like this design, then. I'm trying to negotiate a deal so I can get molds made, what do you guys think, is it too close to the WMO design?:

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/4049/bst1.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5101/bst1white.jpg

MAYBE they work fine but.. those buttons looks too much on the ROOF side. I would argue the best way to avoid unintentional clicks is with the buttons high, but still JUST below a "sharpish" bend/tipping point. IE not so much visible in a top view.

The mouse under-side edge MIGHT be too rounded also (causes accidental claw finger under mouse).
Also for clawing, narrowish back ends are good for pinky :P (not that it looked too bad, but any more bulge would be bad).

(edited/clarified last post)

Ok, Thanks!

The side buttons should be ok, the top down view might be a little wrong. I drew the buttons onto a WMO with a pencil, and erased it/re-drew it until it was nice. I suppose they're a bit like the IMO side buttons (with a bit more space underneath for the thumb).

The recess on the sides is 2.5mm in at its most, it tapers down from just under the side buttons, like this \_/, just to give it a bit more grip, so it doesn't go in really far.

That looks great to me. Any guess as to when any of these will be available to buy?

Not really sure, they can make them quite fast, but depends how the prototypes turn out. I want to get them out as soon as possible, but won't be doing a rush job on anything. If I go with the 3 button mouse its probably about 2 months, maybe 1 if I'm lucky. If I go with a custom mold then its going to be more like 3 months, or maybe longer. Thats just a guess so its not written in stone, might be faster, might be slower :)

Close to WMO shape, ill buy it. Entirely new shape that has interesting design, ill buy it.

Is the second picture glossy white?

that looks much better flash wise, especially the white version. I'd definitely buy it.

This looks absolutely perfect.

The only concern I have with this type of shell is the activation of mouse1/2. I have had mice in the past with this top part of the shell being one piece, where you cannot actuate the switch where your finger naturally rests. The Xai/Kinzu for me are like that. The logitech mx series I think are much better designed in that regard.

So if you could place the mouse 1/2 microswitches further back, or take a look at how logitech have implemented the shell flex/microswitch arrangement, that would be cool for players like me that hold that mouse quite far back with a finger tip grip.

I hope this venture works out for you man :)

I think it comes down to the central cut and how far back it goes, combined with how far the cavity underneath goes back as well. I'll definitely keep it in mind :) Cheers m8

more of a mx300 shape please + more weight.

more weight?

115-145g , 50g is just way too light for my taste at least.

Interesting.

I agree with Rauvz though mx300 shape and more weight!

Can get one of these, they have more of an mx300 shape:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1698/xx1z.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/881/xx2gn.jpg
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8109/xx3s.jpg

Its going to be lightweight though :) You could fill it with blu-tak and coins, that would make it heavy with even weight ;)

don't listen to rauvz, he's the only person ever who wants a 300g mouse

And I'm probably the only one who'd like a wmo sized ie3.0 ( if not a touch bigger )

135g is enough at that size to be honest I tried to put some clay in my salmosa the other day and found my mouse 2 button heavily grounded even though I greased it 9 months ago.
was like FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.
was a good thing I found an ikari for 10~ euros weight is ok a touch heavier would be nice for the size but I don't like the shape.

I basically want a very small mouse but one that is heavy for it's size and the mx 300 shape seems near perfect, this in turn would allow me to do precise finger tip adjustments to mix with my wrist and arm movement.

also are everybody's hands wrists that weak I thought mine were quite weak.

and on another note: Steelseries's mousewheel mechanism feels epic.

Good luck, you'll need it. :)

What makes you say that? Not saying I think you're wrong, just curious.

I know a little about this business, mainly because I know someone who does this for a living.

I prefer the wmo shape over the mx 300.

Well, the mx 300 shape isn't bad, but the buttons could be more like the wmo, not small.

Those shapes looks better.(#76)
With the smaller available vertical side space the buttons also needs to narrow vertically to around 3-4mm. (And again not protruding much at the buttons up-edge.. but drop or wedge like, in an under-hang).

Concerning fingertip-aim a smaller mouse is good, some mice butts your palm WAY too soon. I think I'm average in handsize (not boy hands) currently got length 120mm but think a few less (3-5) could be good. In height, flatter is better.. no more than 39mm.. (currently I got 36.5mm)

I'll stop now. X)

ime3.0 shape like, 400dpi, good build quality, and i'll order one :)

same. Just a bit smaller than IE3.0 tbh :)
Or a WMO but bigger, just to put my ring and little finger correctly.

Update: I've got the prices back from the factory for the 3 button mouse, and theres 3 basic choices:

1) Avago 3090 sensor (CM Spawn / Valor sensor) = RRP: 30 GBP / 35 EUR / 48 USD
2) Avago 3050 sensor (similar to logitech G100) = RRP: 20 GBP / 23 EUR / 33 USD
3) Pixart 3305 sensor (Mico / Kova sensor) = RRP: 18 GBP / 21 EUR / 30 USD

They're just rough prices but pretty accurate. Theres room for shops to sell them a bit less if they want.

I think the Avago 3050 would be pretty good tbh, seeing as its a lot cheaper than the 3090 and can handle up to 160 IPS vs the 3090's maximum of 60 IPS. Its just the max DPI which is lacking, 2000 vs 3500.

I'm getting some more samples which have side buttons (still ambidextrous), the prices will be similar.

Heres some better concept pics of the 3 button mouse, the sensor LED would be infrared, so you can turn off all other leds for no light. I've been using the mouse for a few days now and find it very comfortable :>

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/7096/3b1t.jpg
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7770/3b2.jpg

my money, take all of it!!!

e: for curiosity's sake.. what color are the leds? blue only?

hehe :D

My idea was the LED colour is dependant on the DPI, and the colour choices are:
500dpi = off / 1000dpi = blue / 1500dpi = red / 2000dpi = purple

Or in an exe file you can tell the firmware to turn them off completely. Maybe I can make it so you can choose what DPI = what colour as well, they can even do it so you can choose from about 25 colours but will have to see (I don't want it to get too complicated or expensive).

that'd be sick if you could do it through drivers or firmware or something lol. /me suggests a white led option (not clear, but an actual white glow) if its possible and doesn't put shit out of the price range.

The plan is to have an exe file which has some options in it, so you can load that up, change settings on the mouse, and the mouse remembers them (instead of needing drivers).

On one of the samples theres a blue led and a red one, which mix together to make purple. On another sample where you can choose lots of colours, it has a single LED which has 4 prongs, (ground + RGB I guess). So yeah I will use the more advanced LED if possible, and then white should be no problem (I thought white would be cool as well :)).

That looks pretty damn awesome. If i have one suggestion it would be about the button it looks too big, maybe something like the mx518 dpi buttons.

I probably drew it a bit bigger than it is, because I had to guess it, if you look at the photo in the original post, it shows the real size of the dpi button. Also it will be harder to push than the average button, so its not easy to press by accident. Changing the size of it is harder than it sounds unfortunately.

I'M THROWING MY MONEY AT THE SCREEN BUT IT'S NOT TAKING IT!!

lol nice :D

What's the material on the sides made of?

Its just normal grainy plastic atm (but transparent and dark tinted), the mouse has a slight \_/ shape to it though so I don't notice any issues with grip.

I could get them to do the rubber coat the sides (like it is on the top), but the sides and bottom are one piece, so it would mean the base of the mouse is coated as well, so I don't think it would be very nice.

One of the samples I'm getting is sort of like an ambidextrous roccat kone, and has rubbery sides. It also has side buttons. If I can I'll do both mice eventually. Anyway heres a pic:
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2075/bstb.jpg

It looks like a very solid mouse, and will place on my wishlist if you can ship overseas :P

But the shape of the 5 button mouse, I'm alittle wary of. The shape is very similar to the puretrak valor, and some, including myself, find the shape abit uncomfortable. If your custom molded 5 button mouse is too expensive economically to manufacture, I understand, but don't let your dream die!

Cool, glad you like it.

With regard to shipping overseas, theres a few options:

1) You could order from the main website, it'd be around 15 AUD to Australia.

2) If you tell me a retailer you like I'll see if I can get them to stock some.

3) In some countries (where theres demand) we can send products direct from the factory to a pick and pack warehouse, which would send out orders from our website, so the postage would be cheap (though this wouldn't be available instantly and pretty much goes hand in hand with having at least one good retailer in that country).

As for the shape of the sample, I have another pic of it, I don't think its going to be much like the valor (for a start its ambidextrous), but its not always easy to tell from the pics, anyway heres the other pic:
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/2046/bsta.jpg
I'm pretty pedantic about comfort so if its not nice I won't sell it. I'll give it a good test when I get it :)
Btw, what was it that makes the valor uncomfortable?

Theres also this shape, which I think is nice. The only thing is, its also sold as a wireless mouse, so it has a hatch on the back where you can put batteries in (but its screwed shut from the inside on the wired version). Its alright though, it doesn't make it heavy and the sensor is still central. It weighs 75g without the cord and 100g with it. The grip and comfort on it is very nice, and the buttons are well placed.

My concept pictures are a bit crap atm - the side buttons are a bit wrong (they don't stick up like that), but should give a good idea of how it'd look:
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/7313/xv1q.jpg
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/2281/xv2q.jpg


Heres some photos of the actual sample I got:
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9016/1003784.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/8461/1003785z.jpg
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4462/1003789v.jpg
(btw, size = LxWxH 120mm x 60mm x 37mm)

Personally I don't like that shape.

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/7708/1003778y.jpg

This from the original post seems best. Could you show it next to a WMO, and a kinzu/abyssus or deathadder if possible?

This shape with no prediction, neg/positive accel and low LOD would be certainly worth buying.

edit: Oh and to make it perfect, put wmo-shape feet so that hyperglides can be used with it :)

Sorry, I don't have a kinzu/aby/da but heres a pic with the measurements, and another next to the wmo and a diamondback:

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2396/1003781s.jpg
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/2153/s1003792.jpg
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/3562/s1003795.jpg
http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/1756/s1003796.jpg

The feet are exactly the same size as the ms explorer 4.0, so you could use hyperglides for that, although, I might contact them and see if I can do a deal where I can buy a bunch and have them sent to the factory or something, so they're standard. if people want them.. not sure how easy that'll be but worth a try ;)

That rubber side grip looks like it would feel amazing.

The side button on the left looks like you would have to take your thumb off the mouse to hit it - which is bad thing. The one on the right seems like you could just squeeze down with your ring finger and hit it fine which is better.

The 3050 has a 4000 CPI option according to the spec sheet, but I'm thinking it's just interpolation of the stated max of 2000 CPI. That isn't really a bad thing considering anyone silly enough to use 4k CPI is likely not to care about sensor quality or performance.

Native CPi settings inherit to the sensor are 250/500/750/1000/1250/1500/1750/2000 IIRC.

19x19 pixel array @ around 6700~ FPS

G100's 3055 is based off the 3050, but it's really unclear how this sensor performs unless a few of us get our hands on a real 3050 (aka CM Xornet). I have a feeling the G100 was rushed and the custom lens might not be helping.

I-rocks got their 3090 to perform up to around 150 IPS @ 1800 CPI. This means that the sensor has tons of potential, but unless you have engineers willing to tweak it, it might be one of the harder sensors to over come.

correction can be enabled or disabled.
30x30 pixel array @ 6468~ fps


The Pixart sensor is an iffy choice.

-It may have light amounts of correction, but those coming from WMO's might not be 100% comfortable with this sensor.

-Not really sure if it's inherit, but there seems to be a " jump bug" that the sensor exhibits under fast motion. while It wasn't that bad with medium sens, those with low sens might be fairly annoyed when they swipe and feel the sensor jump and move around 10 pixels to the right. It's a random bug~

If you want 3200 CPI, you're going to have to use a 1.0x lens.
Is that a problem? Kinda. Sensor will only perform up to 68 IPS.

You're limited to the 0.5x lens and 1600 CPI if you want 130 IPS tracking.

Light correction
32x32 pixel array @ 3600 FPS.

Thanks! Some interesting info there.

I saw the 4000dpi option when I looked at the 3050 datasheet, and thought the same thing. At the time I thought its probably not worth adding, as it might be terrible, but at the same time I can see people dismissing a good mouse just because its 'only' 2000dpi (btw I know I use the term DPI when it should be CPI, but I'm just used to it xD). Still thinking about it really. If I do it won't be misleading, it'll say "4000 DPI - interpolated". I suppose its possible that even though its interpolated, it could perform quite similar to a real 4000dpi mouse, because every time I've tried that level of dpi, it was always pretty crap anyway :D

I think I will leave the 3090 for now, unless people really want it, simply because I want to keep the price down and keep it simple. Its a fair bit extra to pay when all it really offers is an extra 1,500dpi, which in the real world isn't that useful. I suppose its something for later if the first mouse is a good enough success.

I thought the pixart sensor would be a 'good enough' alternative to the 3090, but now you've said that irocks got the 3090 up to 150ips, it seems not :) (and I didn't know about that jump bug). Given the 3050 comes out at such a similar price, I can't see much point in it anymore, except a cheap way to get 3200dpi. In the end I think the 3050 should be better in every other regard.

Thanks again for the info.

AFAIK prediction cannot be disabled in the 3050?

Just saying.... 'cos many will not buy a mouse if it has prediction (even very little of it).

It can, says in the datasheet

Edit: hmm, just skimmed through it and can't see it, maybe I've missed it, or I read it somewhere else Oo

Where did you see that it can't be turned off?

I personally think all mice have some form of correction. Intelli/wmo users just want a sensor that feels similar to the ST MLT 04. :P

The 3050 is one of Avago's newer sensors, but I can't really claim that it's on the same level or degree since I've never used the official open source version.

Logitech's 3055 wasn't no MLT 04, but it was either slightly lower or rivaling the pixart.

@ bst.

Aside from the higher CPI, the 3090 can take larger pictures (30x30), process images well over 2x faster, and run at a comparable 6400+ FPS frame rate. I can't really tell you how that translates to actual feel of the sensor, but it's better on paper :D

The major problem the 3090 faces is that it defaults on 3500 and 1800 CPI. This means you would have to go through the hassle of trying to create solid lower steps while aiming for fairly decent tracking rates. Lift off distance might be a trade off at that point.

tl;dr Seems like too much of a hassle for a first mouse.

Looking very nice. I'd be willing to test aka buy it :)

how can you get chassis for mice? :8

Mouse factory... ;D theres lots of them.

wow.. looks like something i wouldnt even waste damaging my wall with.

Well, what do you like? Share with me and you might find something you always wanted in the final product, or a future one.

when around do you plan to bring it on the european market? lets say before June or later?

Pretty sure it'll be quite a way before june, depends what I do...
If I get a mouse out of the brochure it'll be way faster, just 2-3 months I reckon. If I go with a new mold it'll be slower, it'll take a couple of months to make the mold, then another 2-3 months to actually get the finished product (stock). So a new mold is more like march/april time.

I don't know what way I will go yet, but as soon as I know I'll post an update :)

I've been looking at this because of the shape: http://www.icon7.com/euen/ProductDetail_Z300.html
too bad it's got a "gaming-grade laser".

I've got that mouse, made by V7 though, gigabyte had it too, not sure what factory makes it atm though.
You can try it pretty cheap:
http://www.novatech.co.uk/products/peripheral...11-7e.html (maybe you can get it pretty cheap in the US too)
The shape is pretty nice, but yeah, crappy sensor. It would be nice to palm but the front of the mouse where the tip of my ring finger goes is a bit annoying (it doesn't curve round smoothly, after a while it'd probably start to get annoying).

The design I'm doing atm is a bit like it, sort of like the WMO but without the flared rear (basically the rear of the WMO feels a bit slippery to me). The rear of the one you posted is nicer imo.

similar to the HP HDX Laser Mouse

Ah yeah, I remembered wrong, the HP one was the other one I saw, not Gigabyte :D

Just to let you know my opinions.

Theres no other design than the one you have posted that I believe looks better than the Comment #92 one. I just love the design, it's got the side lights of a krait (which I have always taken into fancy), the ambidextrous look of what a MS IME 3.0 COULD look like, and the dark nice tan that looks superb. The curve seems almost perfect for a palm gripper compared to the other designs.

When I palm grip it (so theres no gap between the back of the mouse and my palm), my fingers hang over the edge of the buttons by about 5mm, doesn't really bother me, but does that put you off?

I usually have a gap between my palm and the curve, but for some people that do that, I suppose it's more comfortable than doing it with the wmo (least 1cm-2cm hanging off, mind you my fingers/thumbs are quite long).

Also now that I've actually tried that on my WMO, it feels a lot more comfier. :D

So what are you gonna do?

adding dpi switch button, blu LEDs, side buttons +, grip coating ?

You should stck with the major idea you had /

spiplicity
light
reliable

The original 3 button mouse I posted will never have side buttons, that would be on an entirely new mouse.

But yes it will have the DPI button (which you can disable or remap to browser back or forward (most likely)), LEDs which you can switch off, and grip coating.

Also, no drivers, just a small program which configures some basic things on the mouse mentioned above.

I know it leaves more room for error, but imo not a huge amount, and it doesn't really affect the price much at all, and it will still be light.

I've seen the grip coating on other samples and its good, I've put it through some tests and it holds up really well. But then again its not really a big deal to order some without that coating for people who prefer it.

ok, but in my opinion it s an error to add LED specialy with the market you are aiming for, same for DPI switch, no one will use it in a hurry during a fight. Drivers could do the switch and then save it, the mouse would then be set up driverless.

Ok I can see what you're saying, and tbh agree, just don't see the harm in it as long as its not in the way (since some people would probably like the extra button bind). If its annoying when I get the sample I'll go with what you say :)

What kind of material did you planed to mould the mice with? Do you have choice in the range of exsisting plastics?

To achieve 40g or less you'll need some robust light and very thin plastic.

I was going to go with the same material its made of at the moment, it seems fine, nice and strong, no sharp edges or creaking/rattling.

Its 50g at the moment without the cord, its bound to get a little bit heavier with a different PCB, but not by much. Its still going to be one of the lightest mice available.

I don't think theres much they can do to make the plastic thinner, as its determined by the mold.

Couple of new samples arrived yesterday, been giving them a test.

One of them is really nice imo, the shape is really great, like a more ergonomic wmo. I think its the best mouse sample I've had so far.

Heres some pics, I've edited a couple of them with photoshop, and some are original, theres some comparison shots with the WMO as well:

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/8203/bstmt1.jpg
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5663/bstmt1orig.jpg
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/6506/bstmt2.jpg
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8294/bstmt3.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4342/bstmt4.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4435/bstmt5.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1530/bstmt6.jpg


More info:

- Weight is good at 70g without cable, it'll need an MCU so will go up a little bit, probably looking at 80g at the most.

- Quality is really nice without any weird stuff (like gripping the sides of some mice can cause the side buttons to click, this doesn't do anything like that).

- Mouse wheel feels nice, its a TTC one with 24 distinct detents, feels like the ALPs one (or better even) so probably won't change it.

- The side buttons are in a really nice place which give enough room for my thumb, without being too far away or awkward to reach. Its easy to press the one I want.

- It has a symmetrical shape, and the thumb recess feels really nice on both sides, feels totally natural. Its also really nice because the thumb recess gives a little ledge which my little finger (pinky) sits on, so it doesn't drag on the mouse mat. Its easily one of the most, if not the most comfortable mouse I've ever held.

- I played a couple of ffa games on QL and it performed really well imo. Even though its using the budget sensor, I still got 44% lg and 58% rg. Ok - it was against scrubs - but I've only played 5 games in the last 3 weeks and its my first time with this mouse. So I think it done well, the shape certainly didn't hold me back, actually it felt really stable and easy to hit precise shots. Its pretty much my favourite mouse shape ever.

So with that in mind, unless over the next week or so it gets annoying in some way (can't see it happening), I'm probably gonna go with this mouse. I think I'm on the same 'page' as most people here, from the comments I've read, so I think most people are going to like it.

Later I'll do more shapes ofc, but I think this is the best one to start with, I think it appeals to more people than the 3 button mouse - its the safer choice.

Of course it'll have FULL omonomonom (omron ;/) switches, the gold plated ones D2F-01F. Mouse wheel might not tho because they're a bit easy to click.

Anyway thanks for reading all that, just didnt want to leave anything out. Any questions/comments feel free... :)

damn too heavy :(/

indeed at first shape looks wierd but side by side picture show the size is liek the wmo so, have to test it.

I think its more comfortable than a WMO, for me anyway. It has more grip and because of that it feels much lighter than 70g, picking it up is like picking up almost nothing. The main thing is, compared to the wmo it feels a lot nicer at the back and on the side where the pinky goes.

Theres no reason I can't get the other model as well, but later (or maybe if I can, at the same time). It'll probably have the same sensor and everything else, so won't take long to do.

I'm really liking it so far actually, sounds like quite a nice mouse. Also just for specifics, what sensor is it using?

It'll use the 3050 sensor, with prediction off etc. The sample has a pixart sensor, can't remember which but its not a good one :)

The sensor hole is pretty good on this, LOD is the same as a WMO, so shouldnt have to mess around with the sensor lens or anything.

Me does not aprove the shape, it's too strange for me. Use first sample or the one you used in #63 (as long as it is not too expensive however I would be ready to pay up to 60€ for a good mouse).

see http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2179287#pid2179287

But yeah the only part which some people might not like is the flared base, but depends how you hold it. If you try and hold it at the base where its wide, then its not so good (but tbh some people might still like it). But if you grip it in the recesses above it, its fine. Its not like the roccat kova where you can really feel the back where it flares out, it feels a lot more natural, but the photos sort of make it look like it sticks out further than it really does.

I suppose its a bit like this mouse:
http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/_base_v1//p...etails.jpg
But with a smooth recess on both sides.

Popular mouse #1


Popular mouse #2


Popular mouse #3

Your Sample

You get the difference? It doesn't look good and does not have the simple slim and comfortable form the other have. This one does have a simple slim and comfortable form and it doesn't look ugly like the one above.

so true :l

I think its just the photos, I have all those mice here (nearly 30 different ones in total) and this one is one of the most comfortable for me. Funnily enough, the WMO and IMO shapes feel awkward by comparison, not the other way round. I'm not trying to argue it or anything, just saying that photos can be very deceptive, and different people appreciate different things.

Actually I think the WMO and IMO mice are most popular due to their price and sensor. Not that the shapes are bad at all, but that they are good enough to allow gamers to use a mouse which has a cheap cost and good sensor performance. The biggest issue I have with the IMO and WMO is the grip, they feel like they're going to fall out of my hand at times, especially after a few games when my hand starts to get a bit sweaty. So instead of just copying those designs, I want to try to improve upon them.

I actually have a design which is an evolution of the mouse I posted in #63 (http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2173880#pid2173880). But given its a brand new design I can't really post it yet. I also have some new ergonomic designs which are completely new to the gaming scene, but again they are brand new and no one else has done it yet, so I can only reveal them when (or, if) things have moved on a lot more.

I've bought loads of mice I thought would be comfortable, only to find theres something about them which was impossible to see in the photos that ruins them. After that, it really is clear to me that its very difficult to know how a mouse is going to feel just from looking at it. Even a couple of mm here and there, a gradient, an edge where the plastic joins, which can be almost invisible in photos, can make or break a mouse.

Anyway, having said that, I think both mice (#137 & #92) are really good. They're not the same thing, so I'll try and get both - its just a question of money and negotiation. They'll basically both be the same mouse inside, but different shapes for different people. I think its kind of cool to start with 2 mice anyway, and since they're so similar, 99% of the things on one of them can just be transferred to the other. So right now I am going to ask for prototypes of both mice with all the final changes, if they're good then will really try to get both :)

I personally think 92 looks very very good. I don't mind if it has lights or decorative aesthetics (I acknowledge that sells well), as long as you don't compromise the hardcore features.

100gm PLEASE PLEASE I BEG OF YOU!

I'LL PUT CLAY AND METAL IN AFTER TOO!

lol :D
Sorry mate you're the minority I think :(

The only thing I can do is, if at some point I do the custom mold, then I will try to get a weight system in it which doesn't mess up the weight distribution and doesn't add too much weight to the mouse when its not used.

Put weights in and Rauvz dies. Do you want that on your conscience? :D

I think I have a pretty good idea how to do it without pissing people off who don't want it though ;D

?
I WOULD LOVE WEIGHTS, LOVE THEM I TELL YOU!!

EDIT: I finally got it, you were threatening to kill me ......

I lol'ed

Dont take it personally, but I must use you as leverage :D

:D

that's mx310 shell nigger stay away from that shit as far as you can

That shape looks really nice. Seems like it would be fine/good for both claw grip and palm grip.

TBH I am having second thoughts about the 3 button mouse again... purely because I think the middle bit is too thin, at 50mm. I still like it, but I see it as pretty risky. I had some other people try it and they said the same thing. I just think its something for later, when I can take more risks.

Going to go with this instead:
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4558/tg5b1.jpg


Its only 5 grams heavier than the 3 button mouse, and I think the shape is nicer, its a straighter shape, more like a cross between the diamondback and wmo.

Along with the one above #137 - I've got a few people to try the mice now, and everyone said its their favourite shape.

I'm ordering the prototypes today. I don't want people to think I haven't listened, because I have, they're going to be really nice mice because of this thread and everyone's help and comments. But in the end I'm the only one who has the mice in front of me, so I'm the only one who really knows how they feel when they're held. I don't want to release that 3 button mouse based on peoples opinions of a photo, I feel that if I done that, I'd be almost tricking people into buying it, and then saying "well its your fault you thought it looked nice" if it doesn't live up to people's expectations. Hope everyone understands.

looks like my thumb is gonna go directly on thoose side buttons :s

You should probably ask your doctor to take a look at that enormous thumb of yours.

its just about the style you hold a mouse. me too, my thumb is usually exactly where those buttons are.

i wish someone would exactly copy the wmo in shape, size, weight and material and just put a different sensor and switches in it. you cant have it perfect, but with the wmo shape i know what i have got.

Oh, ok. Its probably not a big deal for them to remove the buttons, and its fine by me since the other one has side buttons.

So I will ask, and it will be a lot like a wmo then.

Deo volente
Thank you Sir

Sorry, found out it can't be done :/
The side buttons aren't very uncomfortable though, so i have a couple of ideas if you really don't like the side buttons:
1) if you open the mouse and put super glue on the switches, they'll stay rigid
2) the side button and dpi switches are on a separate little pcb which you can unplug, if you remove it then the side buttons won't click

Pic of insides:
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5829/pb110017m.jpg

Btw, I posted this before but maybe people didn't see it, its like the 1st 3 button mouse I posted but with straighter sides and no dpi button (you'd have to use a program to set the dpi in the mouse's memory):
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/4610/xx2go.jpg

Theres just over 2cm of space underneath them.

Are you saying the one at #92 isn't going to happen? :<

I dunno about others but that looked the most promising to me. Simple, efficient, that's what I'm looking for.

See http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2180019#pid2180019

I just sent the email so I should know in the morning.

Theres barely any difference in the simplicity of it, and its pretty much the same weight (can't tell any difference when I pick them up).

But no I don't mean it won't ever happen, I'll get some eventually, reason being that it will be a very nice mouse for people with smaller hands, so its going to be in the lineup at some point.

Can you show us more angled shots of it? It looks great tbh. Finally someone who knows what a good shape is.

Here you go, bear in mind its the raw sample :)
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9249/pb110011yh.jpg
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/3554/pb110015c.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8246/pb110019.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2287/pb110020.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7806/pb110022l.jpg
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/1079/pb110023.jpg

Pic of the base (the white squares are just 1mm teflon so I know how it feels):
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/272/pb110028.jpg

Finally remembered, looks similar to a logitech g1 :D

i think side buttons are useless if your a hardcore fps gamer.

Perfect Mouse imo:
optical sensor - no prediction - low lod - good perfect control/malfunction speeds.
500hz polling (no point in 125 and 1000.)
Driverless setup
weight 60-80 grams
cord similar to ime 3.0
take inspiration from already popular shapes (3.0, wmo, deathadder)
omrom switches and good buildy quality/materials.
400-800-1800 steps or something similar.
good mouse feet.

as for mousepads the most popular is Qck heavy and Puretrak talent

cord similar to ime 3.0

Are you mad ? IE3.0 cord is too thick imo. DA's one is ok

Agree with everything, except:

- 1000hz is the default, you can set it to 125/250/500/1000

- Its driverless in the sense that the mouse has on-board memory, so once you choose your settings you can take it to other PCs and it remembers them (and you don't need the drivers ever again). It has button assignment/macros/full RGB & brightness led control etc, all stored on the mouse.

- I found a cord which is non-rigid, its really cool, never seen one like it before, I've had it coiled up for a couple of weeks and when I uncoil it, I can straighten it out and it just flops down instead of retaining the coiled shape and sticking up in the air, bashing things, and all that annoying shit. So basically it won't be like the IME 3.0 cord.

- DPI on the first 2 mice will be 250 / 500 / 750 / 1000 / 1500 / 1750 / 2000. These are default DPI choices of the avago 3050 sensor (its best to stick to them). However if you want you can also fine tune the sens of the mouse in much smaller steps, but its calculated.

I have ie 3.0 and a DA. Deathadder shape is just uncomfortable for long playing periods while IE 3.0 is the most comfortable mouse I've used. Nethertheless I prefer wmo because of finger grip.

Some more pics:
This is the cord I found, you can see how it sits flat and doesn't keep the packaging coil:

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8445/bstcord01.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9971/bstcord02.jpg

This is an updated pic of one of the mice, LEDs can be turned off or reduced in brightness (also you can set to any colour including white):
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2075/bstb.jpg

Anyone else think the raw transparent blue plastic on the base actually looks cool?

you care about the coolness? ok ...

Two of the same mice, everything the same except for the appearance, ceteris paribus. You prefer the appearance of one over the other. Which are you going to pick?

Looks pretty nice.

Please, keep us updated on when it's gonna be on the market! :)

As soon as I know I will :)

You are my last hope bst now that the zowie am is pretty bad (so far).

Ok ;)
I just paid the R&D cost for the mx300/g1 style mouse, just going with that atm. So its definitely happening now.

Zowie AM "pretty bad so far", where are you getting this information from?

Think hes referring to this:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1177120/zowie-am-g...y-a-review

just make a wmo with a good sensor ffs = $$$

=)

no

The one I'm doing isn't thaaat different to a wmo, especially if I do a version without side buttons as well. I have the mouse next to a wmo atm and I put my hand on one, then the other, the height and curve etc feels really similar.

ye i ve seen the picture, it looks definitly good, but for the sides buttons maybe you could put one on each side instead of two in the same side. Just saying even if i don t care about side buttons.

But as i said already, CPI switch button + side buttons will surely make it heavier.

Also imo dont waste too much energy trying to find a good grip material, people will end up puting some grip stuff on it anyway since the translucid plastic is very glidy like on the wmo.

Sounds good so far, keep it real.

60g too heavy for you?

I would personally like to put buttons on the other side, but would mean remolding the whole mouse shell, or if I'm clever, just the top and a few other little bits. Tbh its not really worth it, I think I'd be better off just making a 100% new design later.

The first mouse isn't really meant to be the pinnacle of the brand, its the entry level model, but I think its good enough to compete in the current market at mid-ish level. Its just meant to be a solid mouse which does what it says on the box. Some people may love it, some may not, but I think I've done the best I can, hopefully 'enough' people will like it so the brand can step up a gear and release more mice.

I have to ask myself, how many people will love feature X, and how many people will it annoy? I have to go with the least annoying things (and letting go of some of my own personal desires). In all honesty I'd probably be better off sticking a crappy 6000dpi sensor in there, but as a quake player for nearly 15 years, it wouldn't be, as you say, keeping it real.

BTW the side buttons and dpi buttons don't add much to the weight really, probably around 5 grams.

Yeah just seen the thread myself. Had high hopes for the AM :(
You seem to be going down the right route though, good luck with it, I'm sure you will get a lot of sales if it does everything that you said :D

I hope this turns out good.. I have been looking for a mouse to replace my long used WMO, but would like a slightly higher DPI with a better sensor (this mouse is amazing, but you can feel the slight negative acceleration even with 1000hz polling)

I was planning on the Zowie AM but I am not so excited after the first review came in, and that doesn't even have much about the actual tracking of the sensor/lens and I do not like how the DPI choices are odd due to the custom lens.



Here is what I feel is the perfect mouse:

Sensor:
No positive/negative acceleration
No prediction/correction
Switchable DPI with common DPI settings
Switchable polling without having to hack USB

Button: Make sure the design won't have them double clicking when they get dust/dirt in them or have a lot of play/slack in the buttons after the mouse has been used for a while (all my previous Razer mice had this problem). Not too much pressure, not too light. If going with more than 3 buttons, the extra buttons have to be in almost perfect places which is hard because everybody will grip a mouse slightly different. So maybe a 3 button mouse to start with will be better than having a 5 button which people hate the side buttons on.

Wheel: Not too hard to spin, not too easy, same goes with pressing the wheel down, make sure there is not a lot of play in the wheel or after the mouse ages the wheel doesn't get sloppy like on the WMO.

Shape: WMO, Xai, Zowie AM (good shape, nothing fancy, Abyssus feels a bit weird, but still a decent shape)

Weight: I feel 75-85g without a cord is a great weight, if yours ends up at 50-60, i can always glue in some weights or something if I feel the mouse is too light for my taste

Feet: Good feet with a common shape so they can be easily replaced if needed. Don't cover any screw holes, etc with the mouse feet. Not too big, not too small (the Abyssus would constantly dig into my old thick QCK if i put just the slightest pressure on it due to the feet being so small)

Texture: Be careful with any paint/rubber coatings. Most of these mice peel in no time. Tons of people have really acidic sweat, etc and after no time the coatings can start to peel off or fade. I think a slight texture plastic like on WMO, etc is perfect. It just seems better than any of the rubber coatings/glossy sides.

Software:
Love your idea of a simple way to flash the memory on the mouse so you can customize it and never have to again, simple mouse wheel colors, etc are very nice if done correctly. Have the option to disable the led on any DPI setting. Also the choice of any of the available colors on any DPI as well. (somebody might not want to be forced to have a red LED due to them wanting to a certain DPI)

Price:
The cheaper the better as long as you are not sacrificing quality. $40-60 seems a good price, I bought a lot of WMO for $8 shipped, i just won't spend $100 on a mouse

Just figured I would chime in with any experiences i have with mice. I have used a lot over the years. I have played countless hours of games/FPS and a very aim heavy player with average of 42-45% LG and 55-65% rail in QL against good players.

Please let me know as soon as I can paypal you money to preorder one of these mice. I would also love to have some tracking test to verify that the sensor performs well in your shell, etc.

I hope this turns out good.. I have been looking for a mouse to replace my long used WMO, but would like a slightly higher DPI with a better sensor (this mouse is amazing, but you can feel the slight negative acceleration even with 1000hz polling)

I was planning on the Zowie AM but I am not so excited after the first review came in, and that doesn't even have much about the actual tracking of the sensor/lens and I do not like how the DPI choices are odd due to the custom lens.


Here is what I feel is the perfect mouse:

Sensor:
No positive/negative acceleration
No prediction/correction
Switchable DPI with common DPI settings
Switchable polling without having to hack USB

-extra:
Please make sure there are no problems with the sensor, high lift-off, jitter, etc. There are great sensors but some have known problems. Better tracking on one axis compared to the other, etc. Deathadder (Avago ADNS-S3888/Avago ADNS-S3668) sensors are amazing, but the early production Abyssus had major jitter problems without a way to flash the firmware. These small things can simply make a mouse unusable. The lower the lift-off the better. I don't think i know anybody that tracks without having the mouse on the pad. 1-2mm seems ideal.

Buttons:
Make sure the design won't have them double clicking when they get dust/dirt in them or have a lot of play/slack in the buttons after the mouse has been used for a while (all my previous Razer mice had this problem). Not too much pressure, not too light. If going with more than 3 buttons, the extra buttons have to be in almost perfect places which is hard because everybody will grip a mouse slightly different. So maybe a 3 button mouse to start with will be better than having a 5 button which people hate the side buttons on.

Wheel:
Not too hard to spin, not too easy, same goes with pressing the wheel down, make sure there is not a lot of play in the wheel or after the mouse ages the wheel doesn't get sloppy like on the WMO.

Shape:
WMO, Xai, Zowie AM (good shape, nothing fancy, Abyssus feels a bit weird, but still a decent shape) Look how many total people use that basic shape together, add up every Kinzu, WMO, Sensei, etc users and no other shape probably comes close when it comes to asymmetrical (with the other being mx518/Deathadder non-asymmetrical shape). Adding extra buttons basically changes the shape, that is why so many 5 button symmetrical mice have a lot of complaints about the placement of the extra buttons and bumping them by mistake or not even being able to reach them easily. Be very careful if you start with 5 buttons (which i would love if the shape is nice, maybe the xai/sensei), but for this reason maybe your first mouse should have 3 buttons.

Weight:
I feel 75-85g without a cord is a great weight, if yours ends up at 50-60, i can always glue in some weights or something if I feel the mouse is too light for my taste

Feet:
Good feet with a common shape so they can be easily replaced if needed. Don't cover any screw holes, etc with the mouse feet. Not too big, not too small (the Abyssus would constantly dig into my old thick QCK if i put just the slightest pressure on it due to the feet being so small)

Texture:
Be careful with any paint/rubber coatings. Most of these mice peel in no time. Tons of people have really acidic sweat, etc and after no time the coatings can start to peel off or fade. I think a slight texture plastic like on WMO, etc is perfect. It just seems better than any of the rubber coatings/glossy sides.

Software:
Love your idea of a simple way to flash the memory on the mouse so you can customize it and never have to again, simple mouse wheel colors, etc are very nice if done correctly. Have the option to disable the led on any DPI setting. Also the choice of any of the available colors on any DPI as well. (somebody might not want to be forced to have a red LED due to them wanting to use a certain DPI)

Price:
The cheaper the better as long as you are not sacrificing quality. $40-60 seems a good price, I bought a lot of WMO for $8 shipped, i just won't spend $100 on a mouse



Just figured I would chime in with any experiences i have with mice. I have used a lot over the years. I have played countless hours of games/FPS and a very aim heavy player with average of 42-45% LG and 55-65% rail in QL against good players.

Please let me know as soon as I can paypal you money to preorder one of these mice. I would also love to have some tracking test to verify that the sensor performs well in your shell, etc.

Thanks for your comments! I agree with pretty much everything, just to clarify some things:

Shape: It feels a little bit smaller than the WMO at the back (because it doesnt flare out), and the front is a bit lower, but overall its pretty similar (the width is the same if you exclude the flared back of the WMO). Its mostly like the G1/mx300 shape. Also it has a subtle \_/ kind of shape on the sides which gives a lot of natural grip.

Buttons: All the buttons except the DPI button use Omron D2F-01F which should be good, high quality and nice feeling. You can get them in 2 versions, so I'm trying the light ones first and if they're too light I'll try the heavier ones.
As for side buttons, I think they're ok, but I have designed a part which can be molded to remove them, so I might do both with and without.

Wheel: I've ordered the TTC 24 detent, it feels the same as the ALPs one, which afaik is on the deathadder and Kova+. Part of the R&D is testing the mouse wheel with a special machine which simulates years of use, so I will ask for one of the samples I get to be simulated a few years old, to see how it holds up. However theres not a great deal of choice, and I think I got the best one available.

Weight: Final weight is going to be approx 70g or maybe a bit more, I can't say for sure yet, but should be around that number. I really doubt it will be more than 85g.

Feet: They are MS explorer 4.0 shape, 1mm height with smooth rounded edges, 100% teflon, with no screws underneath. I'll also try and get extra feet packaged with it.

Texture: The sides and base of the mouse are the same as the WMO (grainy plastic), but the top is the rubber coating. I can't get the grainy top atm. The best I can do is release another version with a glossy top, maybe later or at the same time as the rubber one. But yeah, afaik the main area where the rubber coating is a problem is usually the sides, so hopefully won't be too many issues with the rubber top.

Software: Basically the LED light and DPI change aren't linked at all. You simply choose whatever colour/brightness/pulse or turn the LEDs off in the software. This is already done on another sample I have, it works nice. Also it will have an infra red sensor LED, so when you turn off the lights, there will be no visible light coming from the mouse.

Tracking: The factory has special machines which can test the tracking speed, along with a load of other strange looking machines which test all sorts of things ;D

shape should be

\ /
/_\

or

| |
|_|

or \o/

Since when are there different D2F-01F available?
If you mean the D2F-01FL to be lighter, then thats because they use a lever on top of the plunger.
Then there would be the D2F-01 which require twice as much force and should be a no-go for mainbuttons.

Oh ok, but yeah, I was talking about D2F-01, I haven't tried them before though.

Edit: just to clarify -
The prototypes are being made with D2F-01F for main and side buttons

But what I meant in that post was that I could try D2F-01 if the D2F-01F are way too sensitive. But since you say they're a no-go for main buttons, I would have to look at something else (maybe D2FC-F-7N). But tbh I think the D2F-01F will be just fine... But maybe D2F-01 would be nice for side buttons.

Also I find that some mice with D2FC-F-7N are too easy to press just because of the way the buttons are shaped/made on the mouse, and on others they can be harder to press, so in the end I just have to try things out until I get it right. I think I am quite sure what most people want from it though, so I know what I'm looking for.

Looks very promising, you have a shot in making a legendary mouse like wmo that will be bought for many years to come. I will definately be keeping eye on this project. Please take your time to perfect it and dont release it before its really done.

Perfect mouse for me has

- no prediction
- no accel
- no angle snapping
- good perfect control speed
- sensor in the middle of the mouse
- light weight
- atleast 500hz polling rate
- no glossy sides (deathadder :I)

And couple other things to consider
- Get a few community members to test it that know what they are doing
- Test the perfect control speeds etc with reliable equipment
- Test the mouse with multiple mousemats

Ok, see http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2191611#pid2191611

Other than that - I will try and get the mouse out to some high skilled and knowledgable people before release (I have some ideas about this), and ofc test with many mouse mats.

sensor position like the wmo is better, just a bit on the front, this way you have a easyer time with the wrist

Just one question/request: why have you chosen to use, in the mouse1/2 buttons, concavities instead of a convex shape (similar to the WMO one)?

I mean, the curve of the buttons in the part closer to the cord.
From my experience, that shape may lead often to very responsive buttons (like in the deadadder/IME), which may scare fingertip-grip users.

Please make sure the force that needs to be applied isn't too low, I think the best comparison would be an MX510/518.

If you are talking about the mouse in the first post, I'm not doing it anymore (I'll update the post soon), its going to be this:
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4558/tg5b1.jpg

I don't think the force will be mega-low, because the 1&2 buttons are part of the same plastic that extends down the back of the mouse (even though it doesn't look like it), which makes them need a bit more force to press than the separate buttons like on the mouse in the first post.

again, just out of curiosity, why did you choose this shape of "long mouse1/2 buttons" (like the copperhead) instead of shorter buttons, like the IME/WMO?

I personally would have chosen the latter, despite not being able to give any particular reason for doing so

There isn't really any reason, they just happen to be like that on the shape I thought was best, from the selection I had to choose from.

Theres a lot to choose from out there (though most are useless, or plain rip-offs of other gaming mice), but it also comes down to the factory. I'm using quite a large factory which has a lot of mice to choose from, with their own mold making and good R&D facilities, also very good quality control and ability to meet high demand if needed. Also their sales team and engineers are very quick to respond and understand what I want straight away. They also have enough pull with suppliers so I don't have to pay loads more for things like omron switches and a decent pcb etc.

If things go well then I can look back on this thread when I design new molds, and have a lot more control over these things. In the end though its hard to please everyone with just one mouse, but this one just seems to be a solid design which will help to build the brand.

the wmo butons are not small at all if you open it you can clearly see where it s sticked to the other elements.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4558/tg5b1.jpg

and

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8246/pb110019.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4238/pb110013.jpg

are the same model/mold?


What will the end colors/textures be like on the above model?
It isn't possible to get entire mouse the textured plastic?
Which parts will be rubber if rubber?/Will you offer a non rubber version?


Is it not possible to also get a mold that is a knock off of the WMO that is similar full rough plastic texture? Wouldn't it share all the same parts that you would be using on the mold you decided on? I doubt you would have problems selling them if it is a WMO with a good sensor/switches. I am sure it is cheaper to get a single mold, but if it isn't much more to get another mold if they both share all the other same parts you would be using (cord, feet, sensor, buttons, software, etc)

You seem to have almost everything to have these mice done. I will gladly pay for the mouse and be an early tester for you. I was very close to trying to modify my WMO to hold a deathadder sensor and this will save me a lot of troubles. Let me know if you will be doing early testers. I will be looking forward to this mouse and the Zowie AM (sorta)

- are the same model/mold? yes

- What will the end colors/textures be like on the above model?
Like the top picture - rubber coating on top (in all areas where its grey), textured tinted transparent plastic on sides and bottom, normal black plastic for the side buttons and dpi button.

- It isn't possible to get entire mouse the textured plastic?
Not really, it can be glossy on top, but a textured top means modifying the mold.

- Which parts will be rubber if rubber?/Will you offer a non rubber version?
At first its probably just going to be the rubber coated version, if people want a glossy one then I'll do it as well. But later I'll do a form where people can register interest, this will give me a good idea how many to order on the first batch, and what versions people want. There won't be any pre-orders, but if you register interest then you will be emailed news when the mouse is due and when it comes out.

- Is it not possible to also get a mold that is a knock off of the WMO that is similar full rough plastic texture?
I think its best to start with one mouse shell atm, I don't want to over extend myself. Yeah I can get an exact replica of the WMO and put in good switches and sensor etc, but its from another factory, and I'm not sure microsoft would be too happy about it :)

tbh theres probably not going to be a great deal of early testers, maybe even none, except myself ofc. The factory will test the technical aspects like max speed etc. (actually they test tons of things, you should see their lab, its pretty crazy looking with all sorts of custom machines), and give reports (and I will test it as well, on many different mouse mats), and I know what to look for in the prototype. I mean shape wise things aren't going to change hardly at all. I don't really see what other people are going to test that I can't test myself. My aim is basically at pro level anyway, and I've played for nearly 15 years, experienced the best mice etc...

This isn't so different to what all the other mouse companies do, I mean they get the general idea from the pros (in the case of the AM, it was probably something along the lines of - "make it like the xai and make it lighter with an optical sensor etc"), and make the mold, but once thats done, its done - molds are very difficult and expensive to change. The changes made after the prototype are small and technical. Whats more, its not cheap to get a prototype, so once thats paid its pretty much going to happen anyway, unless I want to chuck money down the drain ;) So what I am saying is the pre-testing of the shape of the mouse is basically done, and the only things that are left are technical and quality (ie, jitter, mouse button sensitivity, little things on the PCB and software, rubber coating etc). Being a total perfectionist myself and not afraid to push the factory hard, I think it'll be fine :)

make pics of the labs would be awesome for us non professional of this industry =)

Ok heres some ;)

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2843/cabletest.jpg
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7137/humiditytest.jpg
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/5792/ledtester.jpg
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/3618/mousebuttontester.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7184/scrollwheeltest.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4816/trackingspeedtester.jpg

Tbh I find the injection molding is far more technically impressive, but the labs look the strangest xD Btw those pics are pretty old, from their last premesis, say 6-8 years ago, so I doubt they use those exact same ones anymore.

If you want to see how molds are made take a look at this vid:
http://youtu.be/kf5dmjOM-RE
You can see why they're so expensive Oo (sorry if the vid is pretty boring btw)

Heres some of the injection mold machines at the factory:
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5002/ijmachine.jpg

Heres a random one from youtube at work:
http://youtu.be/orgRePvA1EY

Heres some PCB manufacturing:
http://youtu.be/YJS_Jqw3Sy0

felt so hypnotic at 4am, almost looked like an amon tobin song

anyway thats cool pics thx.

Can they not use the same plastic on top the for the entire top? You said a glossy version instead of rubber, why not just two textures (one for bottom/sides, one for top)? Or is the plastic on top that isnt rubber a glossy plastic?

Ok just to clarify, the whole top part is made of three main pieces which if not coated in rubber are glossy. So it can be all glossy, all rubber coated, or a combo. The sample I got from the factory was the combo type:
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4238/pb110013.jpg

But I won't be doing that version :)

The glossy part in that photo is one large piece, and the rubber coated parts (the main 1&2 buttons and the bit behind them), are separate. They clip into the larger glossy section.

Then you have the bottom part of the mouse, which is one piece, it forms the base of the mouse and extends up the sides.

So the two different types will have the same bottom part, but the top three parts will be coated in rubber, or all glossy.

Ok so full rubber top? what is this texture like? Similar as on deathadder/abyssus?

Do you have an eta you are hoping to have the mouse finished?

Yeah its like that.

Not sure of an ETA yet, probably around mid feb is a safe date for me to predict, but maybe a lot sooner... depends how many revisions it needs.

OK can you give the size of it?
(My picture calculations says a nice LHW of 115x38x57 mm =)

hehe very close, the factory gives the size as:
117.5 x 38 x 61

Which is probably correct, I measure it about the same, but with a ruler its not so accurate... I need one of those digital vernier calipers.

Haha cool.. OK thanks.. I like :)

Cool :)

wow, this is shaping up to be really cool, if it's really 50g i'll buy 10

he said around 70-85 no ?

The first mouse was 50g, which at some point I'll probably still do.

The one thats being released first though is a bit heavier, the sample is about 60-65g (hard to be precise because the cord is soldered into the pcb on this one, which it won't be in the final ver btw), but the sample doesn't have the right sensor, so the pcb needs changing. So I can't give an exact weight atm until I get the new version, thats why I say 70-85g, I doubt it will be as heavy as 85g though. And if it can be made lighter, I will.

good to hear this. In your opinion as an exemple, isnt the DA pcb heavy?

The mx518 was heavy iirc.

518 is heavy, but I think has a good 'broad' base for its weight. It's easy to move.

I don't know if the DA pcb is heavy, haven't got one here. I'll just wait and see what they do, they know I want it to be as light as possible, so it shouldn't be too bad.

It would be great if the dimensions could be at or under 115mm in length, and 36 in height, with it's weight being as light as the Razer Abyssus. Also copy a nice shape similar to the Logitech G100 or Steelseries Kinzu.

Would it be possible to make some kind of replacement kit for ms mice which enables you to change the internals of the mouse and keep the shell?

I know I know no market.....

Hmm would be pretty difficult and expensive to do that, mostly because they use a different kind of sensor/lens setup. Unfortunately the Avago sensors & lenses won't just drop in. If they did I would have considered it.

1st post updated

So this is the one you've committed to?

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9249/pb110011yh.jpg

If so looks decent. Don't like the one at the bottom, but I think that's part of the "old post".

If it is the mouse linked above, what stage are you at in marketing this?

Yeah thats the one I'm committed to. The one at the bottom may be made later but not atm.

Right now the engineers are working on the prototype, I sent the money for the R&D late last week, but takes a while to get there so they only received the money yesterday (and they started right away). It will take them a couple of weeks or so to get it done. But I will keep this topic updated with any news.

If its all good when I get the prototype, it'll go straight into production. But if I have to make any changes, then I'll want to see another prototype with the changes. Delivery from China usually takes about 5 days or less, so every time I have to do it, it means an extra 5 days + the time it takes them to make the changes, but if they're just small changes it won't take long.

They're generally pretty quick. But bear in mind I have a fair bit of work to get done on the website and things like that as well (though thats already coming along pretty well, seeing as theres just one product on it!).

Well everything looks great from what you've mentioned. As long as the sensor doesn't have any issues, I definitely see you selling a fair few.

i just noticed that when looking at the top picture (http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/4161/pb110013q.jpg) next to the wmo the side shape is not streight or concave but is like the opposite, a bit like the abyssus, which is an ergononomic heresy design :/

See, wmo have streight sides in the Y axis which people like and kinzu have a light concave shape in the Y axis, which is extraordinary ergonomic. It just fit perfectly in the hand no matter what size your hand is.

I hope this helps.

The shape isn't really like that, its got a straight side, I think its just the lens on the camera which makes it look convex.

If you look at the pic of the base you can see it:
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/272/pb110028.jpg

you are right it is due to the camera lens and or angle/distance which makes it ronded, but still if you want the best shape you should concider trying to make the sides shape just a little bit curved, exactly like kinzu.

well as mentioned befor, if you make the sides shape like the kinzu you might seen lots of well known players buying it, ie: linkin winz etc

Ok, but it would mean a new mouse really, so its noted, but can't happen atm.

I took a better pic:
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/4711/1003820p.jpg

I think semi tansparent sides are ugly...

Would there be risk of bricking your mouse when changing settings/firmware? if yes then maybe try something like dual bios.

IMO cord should be thin and stiff, great example is one in old a4tech gaming mice http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8501/dscn2202.jpg . There is one disadvantage - it breaks easly but i loved it anyway, felt wireless,
keep in mind - FCC came back and said that our cable was not "shielded" enough in compliance to their new USB3.0 standards
from: http://www.overclock.net/t/930742/puretrak-va...t_13873440

I hope side buttons PCB is going to stay detachable like in your picture.

Ok thanks for the info, I'll look into both things.

Btw the cord will have a ferrite bead, which stops interference, but I'll ask about the USB 3.0 standards.

OI MAKE ME ONE WITH A STEEL SHELL !

xD

make a jitter free abyssus
/thread

as if the only problems of the abyssus was the jittering samples.

aby shape is horide, so does it s LOD.

So when are they available for purchase?

I hope the first mouse will be available by late feb or early march, I think thats a realistic date, it just depends how smoothly everything goes. The prototype will be done much sooner, but there are still many things to do afterwards.

Given its the first mouse there could be unexpected delays, as theres much more things to do than for a 2nd mouse, and although I could try and rush it out, I would rather do it properly first time round. Bear in mind its not just a mouse, but a whole new business.

But as things progress I will keep updating and when I can be sure of a final release date, I will let everyone know :)

how many mice would you have to sell to make a profit?

Depends on a lot of things, like where its sold, how things go over the next few months, what decisions are made etc. I don't really want to say tbh (just like I wouldn't say how much the mouse costs, or where I'm getting it made), but lets just say the highest projected amount isn't that high, and there shouldn't be problems making profit in the first year.

The reason why I think that, aside from the research thats been done, is because a lot of costs have been saved by using things which the factory already has sorted out, and are experienced with themselves, so the R&D costs etc are pretty low. A lot of whats going into this mouse comes from their top end gaming mouse (which I didn't like the shape of, or the 9500 sensor, but otherwise is really good, its been connected up to a PC for a few months now with heavy use, and no issues at all). It also helps using a large and long established factory who have everything in place with regards to inspections, warranty, quality control, testing, R&D, programming, high capacity production, and having good relations with suppliers.

On top of that the skills needed for other areas which are mostly business related (pr/accounts/management/shipping & packing/website and graphic design etc), are already available in the parent company, which keeps costs low, since I don't have to immediately employ people or spend time doing things which other people can do. It also means if it sadly did end up not being profitable, it won't go bust, warranties will still be honoured and the website will stay up. The company has been running for nearly 50 years so its not in the habit of letting people down :)

I know I didn't answer your question directly, but I hope I've shown a lot of thought and preparation has been put into this.

ty for a better answer than i ever expected :)

HAS

shape : wingman gaming mouse style

buttons: 1 thumb button + 3 normal buttons
wheel: soft and solid scrollwheel
sensor: unskipable sensor with low liftoff and glass compatibility
software: no prediction / no accel / 500 hz 450/800 dpi
tapes: teflon glide tapes(WHITE), 3 with same shape and 2mm
cable: very low weight and flexible cable
weight: about 60-85 gr

done!

hey, i'd love to see someone bringing back this one.

Nice work, I'll be watching this.

This entire thread reminds me of car club morons thinking they can design a better car than the manufacturer or improve upon it by lowering the front end of their shitty racer, installing a muffler/rear spoiler/cooler rims.

Should probably leave all the intricasies to the boys upstairs or just do what noctis did and shut the fuck up.

what ntcs did?

Made his own ghetto rigged mouse because it was his personal preference of a shell. Opposed to people who think they can create the single most perfect mouse for a game, when in reality its 99% preference. If there was one single type of mouse that was best for a specific game, then you wouldn't see pros easily swapping mice for sponsors all the time and still maintaining their results.

If this reminds you to what you say, then u r the moron.

[ + ] for funny broken english

Yeah, nobody make anything new -- that's stupid.

The level of engineering doesn't get much more professional then what he did, looking from all angles at the product, getting input from gamers and finally setting his priorities for a gaming mouse suited for hardcore gamers, that's more than some 'pro engineers' can say for themselfes (Steelseries).

Well after two huge letdowns of Zowie AM and Steelseries Kana/KinzuV2 you still have a decent amount of users looking for a good mouse.
I wish you all the best!

whats the huge letdown with the zowie AM?
mainbuttons interfering only when u hold the mouse weirdly.

EDIT: and it seems that the button problem occur only on the GS version.

Could be the hard switches they used and some complain about the shape - hard to grip since it's like /__\

Shape is preference. It can't fit everyone. The AM does not look like a "huge letdown" in terms of performance. Quite the opposite in fact (assuming the button problem is specific to the GS version and that Zowie can sort it out - the accept returns already if you have this problem and your warranty isn't void if you try to fix it carefully I think).

Yeh its not bad actually. I dont have any problems on my GS, abit small but I just got it 2 days ago so still in the process of getting used to. Really wish they used softer switches though.. Every time I game, I get slight cramps from pounding the mouse buttons.

Yeah, I'll have to see for myself. (Just ordered it directly from Zowie).

Maybe they will ease up a bit over time. Happened to every mouse and switch I've used to far.

Any news on when this is going into production?

Around February if all goes smooth.

Around end of February / early March I reckon, this is my first mouse though so its hard to be really precise at this stage. But as soon as I can give a proper release date I will.

I'm buying son, get a cool box though, make it look $$$$

looking good so far.

what are you gonna call it? lol

nonsensi

Thanks, not sure what I'm going to call it yet Oo

he should call it reesha cause it's freaking light.

Congrats on the project, hope it turns out well!

The only thing that's bugging me is that you're talking about using a mechanical type wheel encoder.
I hope you reconsider. Pretty much every mouse with a mechanical encoder I used would start skipping and "bouncing back" occasionally.. the two MX518s I used were the worst. But the same was happening to a lesser degree with a Deathadder and some other mice.

OTOH I've been using an Ikari Optical for more than two years now. Not even _one_ single skip or bounce back from the mousewheel. I've been told it's because it uses an optical encoder. IDC, but it works fantastic and for me this is crucial in game, since I have "wheel up" for the primary weapon and "wheel down" for the secondary.

^this

I dread the optical encoder in my DA 3.5G BE, I can never bind anything on it to mwheelup since if I do then it occasionally activates at random whenever I use mwheeldown which annoys the hell out of me. The best mouse wheel imo is on the Zowie EC series (I have an EC1 blue), it's a lot louder than the DA's near silent mouse wheel but it has flawless registry and is a lot nicer to use imo due to it's tactile response.

Your DA and all DA's have mechanical encoders.

Zowie EC = Optical.

Ok, thanks for the info. The reason why I went with mechanical is because I heard there were some problems with the optical encoders just as much as the mechanical ones, so decided to go with the best mechanical one I could find. Its a bit different to the DA one tbh, its more distinct, so I am thinking because of that it shouldn't suffer as badly with 'false scrolls' as other mechanical encoders. It ticks all the boxes really, the only unknown atm is how well it does over time.

Heres a post on overclock.net which explains some problems with the Zowie EC scroll wheel: http://www.overclock.net/t/857997/my-zowie-ec2-experience

The scroll wheel will be tested, with a machine which puts it through thousands of cycles (simulating years of use), so I'll be looking for the problem. If it shows up I'll look more into the optical encoders.

They have them backwards.

Ah thats good then :D cheers.

... Mx518 uses an Optical encoder. Ikari optical uses an ALPS mechanical.

Heres a preview of the mouse drivers, if anyone has any suggestions feel free to comment :) I can do most of this myself so open to most ideas, such as layout, graphics, wording etc. (basically I'm doing the skins). If you have any suggestions that change the actual options on the drivers, I'll ask the factory what can be done.

Also I'll do the translations for the different languages, so if anyone would like to tell me what they think the words should be translated to, that would be a big help, because it always looks lame when things are badly translated :>

Btw:

- The photo of the mouse will be different, its just a concept atm.

- I am going to ask the factory what can be done about the LED colours, personally I don't mind it but since it has an RGB LED it could probably do a lot more colours if the interface was better.

- The 3000 and 4000 DPI settings aren't native to the 3050 sensor but I thought I'd offer them anyway, it doesn't affect the lower DPI performance and could be useful for some people.

- The logo isn't on them yet :)

Anyway here they are:
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/8706/pg1n.jpg
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2071/pg2t.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4701/pg3s.jpg

i disagree on LEDs and CPI button. Also extra buttons on the sides is a bad idea because when in action you dont want to move the thumb holding the mouse, better place would be somewhere near scrool wheel.

The Windows Sensitivity should be 1 - 11 no?

Yeah thats true, although a lot of drivers tend to use 1-10 (so 5=6), they just knock off the lowest sensitivity so it ranges from 2-11, and they call it 1-10. I'll ask if they can change it to 1-11 :)

i keep throwing my money at my monitor but it's not working! :[

Shame, I would love it if that worked xD

Personally I don't care about any LEDs. It seems like useless [email protected] But if you want to add them and they don't interfere, fine.

Regarding DPI switching: I like how Steelseries does this, where you can set a "low" and "high" DPI in the settings, and then switch just between these two. It's not a big deal for me, I only switch DPI when editing pictures, but perhaps it would be a nice option to have.

I hope that the driver won't have to be installed to use the mouse, with some process running in the background. I'd rather see it all saved on the mouse itself.


Regarding buttons, I disagree with the Anon before me: I think thumb buttons are a well established feature that a lot of people are used to. But they need to be implemented so that they don't get accidentally pressed when moving and lifting up the mouse.

With the DPI switching, I don't know if I can do incremental DPI settings, like 1,2,3,4... etc. But what you can do is tick the box under, for example, 750 and 3000, and the DPI button only switches between those two.

The driver isn't needed at all, you can install the driver, set the settings, then uninstall it, and the mouse remembers the settings. Then you can take it to another PC and it still remembers them. But you don't ever have to install the drivers if you're happy enough with the default settings.

I've been using the mouse for quite a while now and don't have any trouble with the side buttons at all, but it is one of those things where its impossible to please everyone, but I think most people will be happy with them.

i m not gonna insinte anymore and not trying to look like a sadic but i ll tell in just once more :P

puting extra buttons is kind of ok but if it s to do it like other brands that are doing it wrong and put it in the sides (thumb) then what is the dif btw your mouse and other brands? I mean what is then the target audience?

I though you were trying to make something outstanding and smart ;<

Well I tried some mice with the extra buttons in the centre of the mouse, but they were all really awkward, not that the idea is bad but from what there was to choose from, there wasn't anything good enough imo (wasn't just the buttons but the shape and other things).

Atm I don't have the budget/authorisation to do my own design so this is the best I could find. Still from looking at this thread I think I got 99% of what people want. So the target audience is right here, people like this, the ones who want side buttons anyway ;)

If anyones suggestion isn't in this mouse, I'm not ignoring them or anything, but this is just one mouse, I have really listened to everything people have said, but theres just only so much I can do on one mouse. I guess if some people don't like it then all I can say is keep an eye out for what I do in the future.

Very good answer, ty.

gonna be honest, I've only read a little bit of the OP and looked at pictures, so idk anything that's been discussed in this thread, but is this available anywhere?

"Around end of February / early March I reckon, this is my first mouse though so its hard to be really precise at this stage. But as soon as I can give a proper release date I will."

Don't forget to slap the 'ESR seal of approval' on once it's finished :x

this x1000, preferably on the bottom.

I want one! :D

So far it sounds very intersting, hopes for you and us that it will turn out to be great success.

About shipping - how much it will costs to ship the mouse to israel?

About the name - I suggest you to name the mouse by yours, but in acronym - just like zowie gear did with both EC (Emil Christensen) and AM (Abdisamad Mohamed) - most creative idea instead of giving your mouse fancy and stupid marketing names. :)

GL&HF

this, and what would the company name be?

I don't know that either yet :/ I really really got to come up with one. I've been through loads of names. Just got to pick one really :/ its way harder than I thought, but then I am pretty crap with coming up with names tbh :(

name it GL&HF :)

lol :D

you could just use something with 'bst' haha

Thanks for your nice comments :)

I'll find out about the shipping charge, depends what you want though, normal mail or courier like UPS?

You know what I thought.... I thought the EC meant ErgonomiC and AM meant AMbidextrous, lol, and ofc mico is like micro Oo Oh well now I know, hehe.

I could just give them model numbers like Logitech does, or call it something like 'Xiphos' which is "a double-edged, single-hand sword used by the ancient Greeks", ie something that is kind of fitting for a lightweight gaming mouse.

Really looking forward to this mouse! Where can i order! :>? Wouldn't mind paying in advance

Me too xD I've been using it for quite a while now, but with the standard pcb with some random pixart sensor and cheap switches, its not terrible but I can't wait until I can use it with decent internals :D

I'm working on a pre-order system atm. Hopefully I should get the prototype at around the 16th Jan, the PCB is pretty much done now (can 5 days to deliver though). Just hope the prototype doesn't need many changes. Then it has to go through testing for certification.

So probably pre-orders around the start of feb if things go well, as I should know the exact release date and price by then. Bit of a guess though... being the first time its really hard to predict how long things take. But everything will get much clearer when I have the prototype.

Gotta say though I don't want to rush it and mess things up. I don't want people being disappointed with things that could have been avoided with a bit of patience and planning. So pre-orders won't happen until I'm 100% happy with its performance, and 100% sure its on track for the release date.

I consider this as a project. So even if the mouse fails, i won't be disappointed. Ive got so many mice laying around, you'd almost think i am collecting them.

give me a usb mouse with 5 buttons -_

Sounds great, the way its meant to be done. Sad not many actually do this though..

You'll likely have a problem with the 3050 then as messing with the lift off algorithm will throw off the max capable tracking speed. What MCU are you choosing? How skilled are the people programing your firmware?

I would also like to mention that after testing a few mice with this sensor, I can't say that I like it (granted each firmware has it's own problems) Tracking quality or "precision" becomes worse and worse once you hit over 1000 CPI line. Sensor is truly entry level =x

Well I'll see what its like when I get it, if it is really bad then it shouldn't be too much hassle to change to the pixart 3305 with the 0.5x lens, I know its not everyones favourite sensor but I never had a big issue with it. I just figured the 3050 was worth a go.

MCU is http://www.holtek.com/english/docum/computer/82a525r.htm

The programmers for the firmware seem pretty skilled to me, they're in-house, I've tried their gaming mice and they're fine.

BTW what mice have you tried with the 3050 sensor? I've got a Xornet and seems ok, fair enough it doesn't like extremely fast movements, but for sens 3 at 500 dpi seemed fine. However as far as I know, CM didn't get the most out of the 3090 sensor, so wouldn't surprise me if they didn't get the most out of the 3050 either.

I've read some complaints about that Xornet's sensor in the Overclock.net forums.

Couldn't you use some sensor which is known to track well, like the Deathadder's? (I think the original DA was supposed to have the best sensor, but I didn't do any tests myself.)

Of course I'll wait to see how the final product turns out before making any judgments.

TBH, all sensors on the market seem to have have one problem or another. Neither Deathadder sensors are available, only the avago 3090 (which afaik is based on the DA sensor), which is a good sensor but its also a bit scary because its not an easy one to work with. Its also in the Abyssus and look at the trouble that has had. Also its not much cheaper than the top of the range 9500 sensor in the Sensei.

The Xornet sensor (also in the logitech G100) has some pretty good specs on the Avago site. 160 IPS max tracking speed is insane really. So I think it has some potential, and worth a try.

A pretty easy sensor to go with is the Pixart sensor from the Steelseries Kana / Zowie Mico / Roccat Pyra & Kova+. Its got some mild prediction and not as good tracking as the 3090, but it does have good tracking speed, afaik its also 160 IPS.

Theres also the Avago 3060 sensor from the Zowie EC mice. But it has some really noticable prediction. However its got excellent tracking. So it might be a candidate if I can somehow get the prediction turned off.

Then there is the Avago 9500 laser sensor (in the Xai and Sensei to name just two), not sure about that one, not many seem to like it, and its the most expensive.

But yeah, just have to wait and see how it turns out.

Whatever you decide to call it, put something like Mark IV or Version 3.21b on the end of the name just to troll everybody.

Do you have an RRS feed I can subscribe to, to follow updates?

And I seriously wouldn't mind buying an alpha prototype version and help test it. Unreported bugs can only be fixed by accident and all that. Given enough eyeballs all bugs are shallow.

same!

Don't have an RSS feed atm, but the 1st post has all the latest info and gets updated when theres anything new happening. I'll look into it though.

I can pretty much test most things by myself, but when I've got it to the stage where I think its finished, then I will consider sending it out to some people and see if they can find anything else that should be addressed.

why is there 300 posts about a 3 button mouse

I guess because people like talking about mice ;)

Why is there a post pointing out 300 posts in a topic called "new gaming mouse development" in the hardware forum of a gaming website?

Perfect shape is more like wmo/kinzu/xai (IMHO kinzu's shape is just perfect choice. It can fit any hands and grip style.).
How much will it cost? I really hope for no more than 50$.

Its pretty much exactly the same dimensions and shape as the kinzu, just doesn't widen at the back.

Price is TBA, though there will probably be a discount for pre-orders, and am thinking of a way to reward people who posted in this thread too.

S T E E L S H E L L
T
E
E
L
S
H
E
L
L

\o/

Could you post any size measurments?

Would like to compare it next to old diamondback from razer..

L 117.5 x W 61 x H 38 mm

nice so this is basiclly even smaller than wmo?

Yeah but not by a huge amount, just a bit shorter and doesn't flare out at the back. Look in the 1st post, theres some comparison shots next to a WMO.

Hard to jude out from pics.. but its cool.I got both mouses at home, and wmo feels bigger compared to dback.And looking by size spec of ur mouse its even smaller than dback!!Looking forward to release might try it out.

They're all really similar tbh, but yeah my mouse is the smaller of them all, the biggest difference is the length, which is about 1cm shorter than both the diamondback and wmo.

I have cut the rubber sides of my diamondback with a razer (:p), so its level with the thumb buttons, I didn't really like how wide it was at the front. So it feels very similar then, except the length, and also the sides are straighter on mine.

I think the mouse its most similar to is the G1/MX300/G100, just a bit higher.

Great project!

The wide back is needed for palm users and is what makes the ms3.0 and kinzu so good shapewise.

Have you tried the zowie AM?

Havent found any better sensor: no accel, no correction, low liftoff. Closest I found to ms3.0 with better max speed.

I dunno, I'm a palmer and it feels fine to me, never get any aches from using it, and I've been using it every day for a couple of months now. Although I'm a fingertip user in windows, but works well like that too.

Actually I don't really like the flared back....and I don't get it. if you hold your hand out and bring your thumb in like you're gripping an invisible mouse, it gets narrower at the back not wider Oo

Yeah if this 3050 sensor turns out not to be so good, it'll be changed to the 3090 sensor which is in the Zowie AM. I could also use the 1.25x lens so its similar... not sure atm, would be interesting to try a few different lenses with that sensor and see what happens.

I also asked the factory to have a word with Avago about the 3060 sensor and turning off the prediction, this could keep the cost down and its a very nice sensor (smooth tracking and nice max speeds). But thats a long shot. If it works though it'd be like the Zowie EC sensor without prediction.

Hey, can you make it come with a customizable wireweight or sell wireweights? I fucking hate razer bungie and shit, but i loved z4's wireweights, fucking thing disappeared though :(

Let me know what you want from one and I'll look into it, personally I use blu-tak lol. But yeah wire weights are much more stylish :)

This mouse looks great! :D I'm hanging on to my crappy HP mouse and this will be my first decent mouse ever.

Thanks, hope I can make you happy with it :)

chaneg thread title =)

Done ;)