It's a race to the bottom.

Imagine if shaq wasn't allowed to dunk and his opponents made him just shoot free throws. That isn't going to grow the game. What is interesting is letting players play their best map and hopefully achieve some sense of mastery.

I would agree here, pick maps before you throw.

I am in concurrence with you good sir.

Agree, never understood why they changed it.
I want to see the players on their best map.

I agree, and as someone who purely enjoys the spectacle of this game...nothing rages me more than not being able to see my favorite players on their best maps.

yeah we had a problem with this for a bit in the euro tdm scene but luckily all leagues are using pick pick now

Agree. But everything is retarded nowadays. Timelimit 10, no lan support, not being able to go to a net cafe and play some games with real people, only 2 or 3 actual lan tournaments a year, and most of the time they are invite only, etc.

i agree with toss toss pick pick, but only in cups with 7/9 mappool, cause i don't wanna be forced to learn t4/bf since no one ever plays these maps anymore
even ztn i avoid playing, since our competitive 5 map pool atm is t7 dm13 tox aero hektik

It was originally changed when matches were best of 3 and there were like 5 maps. People would do the opposite of what you're complaining about: pick ztn, lose t4, eliminate maps to force dm6 or dm13 played. So you only needed to be good at 2-3 maps and could just lose/toss the others every time.

In best of 3 there's a problem no matter what order you do it. Best of 5 you could pick pick, toss toss, play remaining map (if 5 map pool) or pick pick (from larger pool), then go to tossed maps.

In either case the solutions are just make sure you're well rounded and dont care about maps tossed, or play 1 map 50% of the time. It's also kinda obvious that this 2nd case leads to people never wanting the maps changed, cause they've put in so much time on 1 particularly strong map.

5 maps in mappool, bo5: best
5 maps in mappool, bo3 pick pick elim elim: second best

this.

I think 7 map pool is a bad idea, just make 5, everybody can learn at least 4, and then this works perfectly.

well i prefer toss first. cba to play a map i think is shit. You will also get closer and more thrilling matches this way i guess. If its pick first its more likely we get 2 rapes on homemap by each player and mb one close 3rd map.

this is why you need smaller mappools, so every player can realisticly practise every map.

Still smaller mappools won't force a player to play a map which he thinks is shit. Personally I'd rather play dm6 or t9 or even dismemberment over t7, but oh well, the current mappool is driven by community *experts* so everyone should love current best mappool, which is not true for everybody.

I agree, at least for non-pro cups and leagues drop, drop is better, because most of the players have at least one map they dislike or not know well. I always drop a map that I dislike. Some ppl though drop ur best map instead, which is weak and stupid imo (at this level, we are not pros ffs).

Pick, pick I think is better for pros though, since they know each other too well as also all the maps (exception cooler).

edit: if dm6 is ever added in map pools then I prefer pick, pick regardless the level of the players :P

cooler

D:

//Assuming this is not bo1 :)

Ideally the *better player* should be better at more of the maps than the lesser player. So from a newb perspective I don't see whats the fuss, considering its just 1 toss and then pick. So the better player will play his second best map and the newb player gets the chance to either throw a map he/she doesn't know or a map he/she can't get a grasp on yet. From a spectator point of view, toss toss pick pick reduces the chances of seeing a player playing a map he barely knows which isn't pretty at times. In addition players are playing somewhat closer to the middle ground where games can be more interesting/entertaining.

So I think it comes down to the map pool really:
- if the maps are standard (played often) -- use pick pick
- if you want to introduce some lessor played maps or completely new maps -- use toss toss


(And there are reasons why people don't play obscure maps, eg. doesn't have premium - or - not able to find someone willing to play battleforge in a public server)

...

"So handicapping good players that have been the backbone for this game for years to give the "new players" a chance doesn't really work. In the end the top level players will still beat the new players no matter what map it is and when it gets to the finals you have two very good players not being able to play @ their best."

Well I wouldn't say toss toss gives players a better chance of winning. I think the idea is to satisfy both sides, as in having new maps and standard maps. Imo I think you can get more participation in a tournament with toss toss. For some people may not join a tournament because they might be forced to either play:
- a new map they barely know
- a map they don't have fun on
- a map they suck at
- small/boring map pool
- the same X players

And for online tournaments I think more player participation is better overall, I rarely follow/spectate a tournament without being involved in it in some way.

But you do make a good point that in the finals there's a chance the players won't get to play their favorite map. But as a spectator I would rather watch maps where the skill is closer - opposed to one of the players having to play a map they are absolutely terrible at.

And in regards to new maps not being picked im pretty sure this isn't always the case, most people will have some sort of strategy when it comes to picking their maps against certain players. So im pretty sure in the finals its 1/4 chance to take out a new map when it comes to picking maps. Where you have the following options as a player:
- to drop your opponents best map
- your worst map
- drop one of the new maps
- drop a map that you think your not playing so hot on that day or your good at the map, but the opponent has a mean rail and your rail is off lol.

So its hard to say that toss toss eliminates new maps especially when it comes down to equally skilled players.


For example if I were to play walter. I would probably toss aerowalk opposed to a new map. Although if I think my rail is hot, I could decide to drop a new map or my worst map and take the chance of walter picking aero.

//Just as a note when it comes to professional invite games, I think pick pick is great. Just Ive convinced myself that toss toss is good for online tournaments because I think it gets more players :)

.

Well yeah there is no winning on either side :) But I think toss toss gives you more of a balance of things.

//Some things that come off the top of my head

pick pick = players will complain that new maps are being picked
toss toss = players complain that they can't play their map
toss toss = people like rey throw away same map every time (t4)
pick pick = people like rey ff out of their disliked map (t4)

//Other things to consider as well
small/standard maps for pick pick = map pool is boring
pros play new maps = interesting
a newb plays new maps against pros = not interesting
a newb getting smashed on a map they barely know = not fun
more maps = map picking is more dynamic
less maps = map picking is fairly straight forward and predictable

someone should start an online tournament in NA that only features non-standard maps. shit like DM17 and proving grounds that you wouldn't see, ever. or maybe you know, pick some of the good maps that AREN'T already on the standard map list.

no ztn, aero, dm6

toxicity and furiousheights should be on that list, because they're sick maps. toxicity is probably (imo) the best QL duel map introduced to the game.

Maybe higher seed gets to drop 1 map, lower seed doesn't get to drop. Just a quick idea. When 2 maps get dropped it certainly sucks.

for duel i prefer dropping on an amateur level and picking on a more serious level.
reason is that amateur player just wanna have some fun and should be able to remove something they do not want to play. but on a competitive level you should not allow players to avoid a map.
spectator wise its a trade off between seeing players at their strongest and seeing close matches.

probably the same reason maps like hektik and dismemberment got into the pools

i don't care as long as it is a 5-map pool

don't play newb mode.

like mainly people wanna have fun instead being obsessed by artistical representation, the retardisation of video games in general had to hit the competitive scenes as well

this is part of the big plan the world is driven by, in most activities anyway: give the lamers a chance to win; or better just give them prizes, skip the goddamn competition part entirely, we hate natural selection, long live human rights to the extreme that equal people are so equal that we will wake up very soon living by Lenin's laws in the comunist regime

P.S.: I've been saying this a long time ago already, but the guys were so happy with their "love the lamers" slogan and by the time 2good was too busy with his self satisfaction into action by watching himself on the tv while masturbating all over his grimace, not knowing that he is 2lame 2begood nobody noticed, that the whole dirty affair not only escaped clear but it became unhealthy habit no1 in the world could think living without it, believing that otherwise the whole planet will slowly dissapear

Imagine if baseball and football players could throw out any stadium that doesn't meet their demands. Sports become ingrained in the fans by the emergence of standards that are entertaining, dependable, and repeatable. Forcing players to play 'new' maps is problem inventing for the sake of problem solving. There's nothing wrong with playing the same maps over and over. A trillion soccer fans don't disagree.

You could make the same argument to go back to QW, or to only use 1 map ever.

Quake is too dynamic at this point for one all-encompassing map, but in the actual Quake days DM6 was pretty much enough.

It would be fine, if people weren't playing it for fun.

agree about how this deters play on newer maps, disagree on everything else. tournies arent designed to let you play your favorite map. so lets not talk about that. but if ur going to argue about whats more fair then by all means go ahead. i remember having some heated exchanges with carmac about this when esl changed to drop drop (which was the start of the drop drop syndrome). i favor the pick pick system on a bo5 map list tbh. but i think overall, the map pick system has little effect on how good a tournament is in terms of fairness and spectator value. note the word overall. there will always be exceptions, in either system. one of carmac's original arguments was that drop drop deters one map wonders. which is certainly true. however on the flip side, pick pick deters people who just dont play certain maps and would drop them every time if they could.

there is really no solution to this other than picking a well balanced map pool with maps that support a variety of different styles.

I agree.

.

i understand what youre saying. but again i have to say that giving specific examples is just inappropriate in this case. because you can always be countered by a case where someone is only good at 2 maps out of 5 and gets a lot further down the tourney tree than he should.

i would love to get a statistical distribution on how people like different maps and perform on them. then maybe we could actually make rational decisions on this. but until then ull have people who dont like the system, no matter which it is.

also on a related note, i really dislike 7 map pools when the majority of games on most tournies are bo3. just seems unnecessary. and certainly dropping 4 times on a 7 map pool for a bo3 is kinda meh.

Well, it's just fun seeing the players playing on their best maps -- awesome exercise of will at times which creates those "OMGWTF" type of moments. Not that's missing entirely, but it is fun B)

video game stuff and maps and levels and hats

ahah big, newspaper hats at that.

.

think of someone whos exceptionally good on a couple of maps but bad on other maps playing someone whos reasonably good at all 5 maps. if u have a pick pick system, chances are good the former rapes the latter on the first map, and the ok player pretty much just gives up. and before you say hey he should know better, my point is simply that that sort of thing happens even tho its not very common. just like someone dropping an opponents favorite map and winning because of that happens but not very often. so i dont see how it lowers the skill of the matchup. forcing someone to play z4 is as good/bad as forcing z4 to play non t4 maps (k im not saying z4 is not good at any other maps but u see my point).

also new maps usually wont get played unless the map pool is chosen carefully enough to promote them. on a 7 map pool, neither pick pick nor drop drop is really going to enforce people playing new maps. altho pick pick is more likely to produce some games on the new map. so for that atleast i do agree.

anyways this is something we can talk about ad infinitum without really getting anywhere. personally i think that if the map pool is chosen wisely enough and so is the format, the picking system is really irrelevant.

"think of someone whos exceptionally good on a couple of maps but bad on other maps playing someone whos reasonably good at all 5 maps. if u have a pick pick system, chances are good the former rapes the latter on the first map, and the ok player pretty much just gives up"
isn't jamerio the best overall?

Actually I've changed my mind. Dropping maps first is better because it forces everyone to either be strong on all maps or risk getting screwed. Hence, it requires higher average overall fitness. It's also fun to try to figure out what someone's most comfortable map against you would be, then drop it.

what?

Drop drop first =

cooller = DROP HEKTIK
everyone else = lol wtf...

pick pick first =

cooller = prick ztn!!!!
everyone else = PICK HEKTIK
cooller = :(

= new map played, fucking reject

If drops are first, players risk getting their best pick dropped. So they can't count on having a home map, which makes it harder overall. In best of 5 with a 5 map pool (which I consider the ideal) the latter maps will come up eventually, they just can't be used to power through a match in 3 maps. Thus, more close maps for spectators, and players have to have their shit together.

It's not really a big deal, Rapha will win anyway.

only some wanna see excellence in action, instead communist well met criteria
it's not like it is bo1 for christ's sake; if player is good on one map, the game should give him a chance; what's wrong with this picture?

lol

I totally agree here - pick,pick,trow,trow is much better. Because as you said, it always happens that the best map of each player is eliminated.

Main error is probably letting players decide on the maps. A better approach could be to have a 5 map pool with fixed map groups for the early bo3 rounds and bo5 for the final rounds. Map order could be decided by random() or be fixed from the start.
Example: pool ztn dm13 dm6 t4 hub
Round 1: t4 ztn dm6
Round 2: dm13 hub t4
and so on,
Final rounds:
Round 1: ztn dm13 t4 dm6 hub
Round 2 (Final or Semi): hub t4 dm6 ztn dm13

No drop or pick anymore, map lists and order are announced before the actual tournament.

interesting idea

stop crying, you are not cooller, you are not z4, you are not czm. the only map you can play is aero and that's cause you can hack there.

He has a pretty epic ztn game....

If thats a prerequisite for posting, are you cooller, z4 or czm? LMAO

.

you're a loser druggie but you do make some goddamn sense

fuck drop drop

One thing loads of people don't get is that knowing how to play all the maps well helps you gain a new perspective on how to play your best few maps.

there are ql tournaments?

mostly just weekly zotac cups, etc.

Why plusing him, plus me ;<

tuesday: jeesports duel tournament (qualifier for monthly finals)
wednesday and thursday: jeesports amateur duel tournament (coaching lessons up for grabs)
friday: jeesports 4v4 tournament (qualifier for monthly finals)
saturday: jeesports duel tournament (weekly cash prizes depending on # of signups + qualifier points for monthly finals)
monthly jeesports finals with 160 EUR prize pot

sunday: zotac cup with 100 EUR prizemoney


clanbase 4v4 eurocup
clanbase 4v4, 1v1, CA, ctf open cups with weekly scheduled games

house of quake 4v4, ctf, CA, 1v1 cups with weekly scheduled games
house of quake King of the Hill 1v1 on tuesdays? don't remember, not being advertised atm

ESL EMS 1v1 with prizemoney qualifiers atm, playoffs soon
ESL Autumn TDM cup

some ESL ladders
QLranks.com

Dreamhack with TDM 4v4 (and possibly duel?) as a highlight

People are talking about players like Zero4 being punished by losing their best map with toss, toss. But isn't that just punishment for only practising on one map? :P

But seriously, shouldn't someone's skill be determined by how good they are across all the maps? Anyone who wants to do well in duel comps should practise like 3 maps over and over at least.

But seriously, shouldn't someone's skill be determined by how good they are across all the maps?

no. who decided this? stop saying things without justifying them.

Why not then? If someone is only playing one map and is the best player on one map, don't you think they would lose every tournament because they don't know more then 1 map

why not what? they would lose every tournament that emphasised playing more than one map, yes. my question is why should tournaments be formatted this way? there is some default assumption by everyone that this is somehow a good thing or that it makes a player more skillful. that is nonsense.

I think that it may be better for competition to encourage specialisation in one or two maps. this makes the game more approachable to newcomers as well as more accessible, and it essentially makes the tactical aspects a far more consistent affair. I think there is a lot to be said for being really good on one map. the only difference between being good on one map and being good on all maps is time invested. you are penalizing smart, thoughtful players by requiring them to expend more effort to learn new things. that may or may not be desirable depending on your view, but I don't see any justification for that as the end-all, be-all of things, and a lot of the modern rhetoric on ESReality surrounding this topic involves the push for "new maps," seemingly without end. how about some standardisation, instead? these people who argue that ztn is played out and can't be improved are ignorant. I think that gameplay on ztn just for example, is continuing to evolve, and there's no reason it couldn't serve as the basic foundation for a highly competitive Quake environment.

Good player shall be good on all maps not only on the one. However in bo3 with 5 map mappool I would preffer pick-pick-elim system. Tossing map is good when you have 7 map's pool so every player can concentrate on 6 maps. The advantage of it is that we don't see constantly the same match ups between two players.

this is against the first rule of competition
imagine if powerlifting or weightlifting would use the same system: good bye world records

I can't find your analogy accurate enough. If you want to compare quake to any sport it shall be also 1on1 or team game. Powerlifting etc is results based competition, like defrag. I don't see any valid comparison to map picking in real sports, because all of them are based on simple rules, one area and no variations.

Getting back to Quake. I'm sick of Blood Run, it's so overplayed and boring map. Without drop rule I'm forced to played it over and over again because like QL Ranks stats say 60% of matches are played on ztn. So it indicates that most of my enemies will pick that map instead of any new map. That is sad.

Until map pool is balanced (e.g. by dropping ztn) tossing is pretty reasonable map picking system.

you put too much emphasis on overall performance, which is just denoting that you did not have much in common with performant activities; it does take a lot of time and dedication to get very good at one specific task; what's that funny quote about an expert being that person who knows very much abt very little, till he will know anything abt nothing? also the things you struggle to adapt to can't be put away or change overnight
you can be very good on one map and horrible on other maps, depending on the maps you train more

if people is eliminating your best maps then what good is the training, because if I am training with dedication on a new map and I become very good on it, I can be very sure that my opponent will eliminate this map; instead giving you the motivation to be good overall your fucked up system is just discouraging players to become good (on any map); your system is encouraging mediocrity (ok, I have to become just as good as the others so no1 will eliminate my best map, which is not my best map anyway)

the connection between ql and other sports is the training! the best way you find to compensate my training, dedication, my time and my ultimate signature I've been putting on what I've been doing the most, is to ask me to play another map? are you out of your mind?
jeez... I talked enough

Drop drop is good to weed out the single map savants.

A pick pick first caters to having two one-sided maps first, and then have a crippled third map. A drop drop system forces players to be good on all the maps, except for one (5 maps), or two (7 maps).

While it's true that it makes introducing new maps harder, it's easily overcome by introducing more maps, meaning that eventually, players will have to play them. Looking at the history of QL though, it doesn't really matter what system is being used, as new maps are introduced at such a low pace and when they are, the community doesn't adopt them anyway (hello there ztn, aero and dm13).

here is my suggestion:
-drop
-drop
-drop
-drop
-drop
-go home
-profit $$$$

Hey guys. I was just wondering what the big deal is? Didn't you hear they are shutting down Quake Live after Dreamhack?