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Exciting.

Lessons we should have learned by now: we'll believe it when we see it play it.

Thou shalt not drool.

Daikatana 2

Daikatana 2.0*
-fixed

fps scene is alive dude, CSGO. Arena fps is dead.

tell that to romero

For him there is only one type of an fps game... the arena fps, hell yeah! Daikashitna

Yes. That will save us.

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hopefully they're mostly finished.

the fps revival started a while ago, OW is out in a month.

Romero, the savior of fps games.

Hail what?

It's the same dude who created Ion Storm because he couldn't keep up with rigors of work at id (he called it a limit on his creativity, go ask Adrian Carmack how he was fired because he simply stopped working), balooned its value by hyping Daikatana as the ULTIMATE FPS, only to try to sell it to Eidos and get a hefty slice of that inflated price - and then jump ship with no regrets.

He was also the "mastermind" behind one of the most toxic, jumbled and directionless corporate cultures ever devised, what caused his entire original team to walk thru the front door mid-development.

His entire Ion Storm/Daiaktana bonanza reeked of a scam which it was. Not to mention that when the game came out it was something ugly enough to save us from alien invasion - as no self-respecting aliens would ever invade civilization capable of producing such a retarded mess and calling it ULTIMATE FPS GAME.

This dude is riding his waning "creds" like a blind horse and still hopes that someone will buy his stories. Granted, he made quakeed, doomed, dwango, ted5, igrab, and other tools. So what, it was more than 20 years ago. Romero failed to create ANYTHING of importance in gaming in general since his useless Daikatana project, not to mention anything important in FPS genre. Or anything at all.


So yes, he's an FPS mastermind, alright.

It's going suck more then the new doom game. IF it gets made at all.

We all know how John makes games dont we.
IMHO it's a publicity stunt, nothing more. Even if it comes out it will be totally passable. The genre has everything discovered a long time ago and honestly you can't make a game that won't fall into already estabilished categories already full of excellent titles.
FPS started biting its own tail - hence the revival of interest in older FPSs in general.
When I played Daikatana again last week - I often replay old hits (SIN, Shogo, Blood1&2, dn3d, Redneck Rampage, All Serious Sams, Painkiller, old Quake singleplayers, RTCW, etc etc) I was amazed at how clueless the Dallas office of Ion Storm was while creating that game.

Romero fell out of spotlight because he overestimated himself and decided that id was not good enough for his ego. Granted, most of these guys (to name McGee and Hall for example) were eccentric and butted heads with each other - yet Romero was the worst of it all. Then he tried to get money from scamming the back-then-naive industry and gamers. It was all very easy, as most of gamers were young, didn't know jack shit about business in general and they were so enamored with the "legendary Romero of id fame" that they were willing to affix their lips to his ass at a whim. Romero knew that, that's why he made us his bitch with that infamous poster that basically spelled the doom of Daikatana. He knew he could ride the bullshit up to heaven's door, so he did.

To see that dude return 16 years later to pretend that nothing happened and that he's gonna revolutionize the genre is the worst fucking joke of the year. But I applaud his sense - lots of youngsters only know Romero as the man who coined term deathmatch and co-created doom & quake. And that's good enough for them to fall to their knees and prophesize Second Coming of FPS.

Dont fall for this. He's done it before and he will do it again if he can.

In ten years when ID releases quake 5 and it gets panned. John Romero will return again.

That second to last paragraph applies to John Carmack as well, since Quake 3, yet he is praised as a demigod.

What enthusiasts lust for is a revision of the classic Doom and Quake games. Id and no one else has delivered that, so maybe the actual creators will, namely Romero (gameplay) and Adrian Carmack (art). Same happened with the revival of the Wolfenstein series, which was done by an external company.

The engine and having to feature a long single player campaign are not problems anymore, which were two of the three reasons why Daikatana failed. The other was management, but that shouldn't be an issue as both John and Adrian are older and more experienced.

I wouldn't compare Romero to John Carmack in these terms.

Compare Romero's and Carmack's resume after them splitting ways. Name one engine Romero built.
Carmack did *a lot* of tinkering with 3D technology - Carmack's reverse, ATR, raycasting, BSP, surface caching, and even megatexture, whereas all Romero did was tools for level editing and one MP client.

I, for one, never praised him to be a "demigod" and I suppose that most rational people wouldn't call him one, too. He is a gifted programmer and a very good engineer. After Q3 he researched the ideas further (hence Doom3) and ended with RAGE where, as he said, megatexture failed for not having proper hardware to employ it as he envisioned.

Like I said in another thread, Carmack decided to ditch videogame industry in favor of other things - I think that given his mindset and technical acumen it was a good idea. Carmack is long past that one.

And where is Romero? Failed Monkeystone, tenure at Midway, zero influential projects and inventions. Yep.

No one uses idtech 4, idtech 5 or idtech 6, nor his work in mobile games. For the past 10 years that everyone has been using the engines of his competition, Epic. All that tinkering was fruitless and Carmack's work has not been influential in this millennium.

Idtech 4's severe performance issues are what caused Doom 3 to only have closed corridors combat and very few enemies, which killed the franchise to us. Carmack was in charge of the engine. Rage (Idtech5) was a buggy mess, especially with AMD/ATI cards. Carmack is responsible for that too, and in turn the game being like that is what caused Zenimax to heavily supervise id software. The Oculus Rift still ended up not being nowhere near as great as advertised, and was already surpassed by the HTC Vive in every single aspect (besides comfort, which isn't Carmack's department).

As for the managing side, while Romero sucks at it, it has to be said Carmack sucks too. Carmack is the one that decided to keep id with few employees, as stated in the Masters of Doom book, causing id to only release one game a decade, which in turn made id software not be profitable and be sold to Zenimax. Carmack was the one that fired Romero. After Romero left the company was never the same, quality and sells wise.

That's the transition from 1999 (demigod that created the engines that made possible the expansion of the FPS genre) to 2016 (a father figure in the industry yet no one uses his works made after 1999 because in his own company's game the engines have tons of issues).

Sure you can say the same about Romero, and even more so since he is not a public figure anymore and crashed and burned with Daikatana, but if I had to pick someone to make a FPS game today I would rather pick Romero over Carmack, because with Unreal Engine 4 (the best game engine ever) the technical side is already covered. What's needed is gameplay, and Carmack was always against the fast paced gameplay (wanted to remove rocket and strafe jumping, idtech4 and 5 were locked to 60 fps, and so on).

it's not like Romero and Carmack are the only 2 people who made Doom and Quake successful. Romero was not the only one who left in late nineties. I would argue American McGee has had more success outside of id. It's still one game, but that's one more than Romero.

oh and you could play Quake 4 at 125 fps after a few updates.

Yep. That's true. McGee is the only one that had a really successful career after 1999.

Also we keep on forgetting about Adrian Carmack (appearing on the video). Without his models the first Doom games wouldn't have been as fun.

Quake 4 had 125 FPS implemented in the very last patch, when no one played it. That was added by SyncError actually, not Carmack.

Just a "quick" digression. At the time, Sync was the newly appointed community liaison - as far as I could tell during the closed beta, TTimo did most of the heavy lifting for 1.4x.
Sync appeared to be more about prioritizing change requests and overseeing QA.

TTimo seemed to be very involved in QuakeZero QL after that (while Sync eventually contributed more and more slight code changes).
We owe him years of working Linux/OSX clients in a number of id games. :)

No one uses idtech 4, idtech 5 or idtech 6, nor his work in mobile games.

Yes, someone uses them.

id Tech 4:
-Prey
-ET: Quake Wars
-Wolfenstein 2009
-Brink

id Tech 5:
-Wolfenstein The New Order
-Wolfenstein Old Blood
-The Evil Within

Some of these as late as 2014.

So? How that compares with your statement that

For the past 10 years that everyone has been using the engines of his competition, Epic

As to HTC Vive: How it has surpassed Oculus? Because from what info I gathered, they're pretty head-on in tech department, and game library as well.

This list means nothing compared to ue3 games in the last 10-12 years, and ue4-unity (maybe dice and crytek engines too) in the last 1-2 years.

Well, it does mean something.
Namely, there were games released on id Tech during the past 10 years contrary to what megaman said. Nowhere is there any hint at these engines being more popular than unreal engine, because that's not the topic of this discussion.

Every single one of those games are from related companies to id software or Zenimax, or using id's IPs. None of those is a good example, and none counts.

Unreal engines have been used in hundreds of games in the past 10 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

Not only that, the current Unreal Engine 4 is the trendiest one in the industry. It's safe to say that in three years there will be a hundred games more on that list.

So, Carmack's idtech engines went from being one of the most popular (idtech1-3), to being the least popular (idtech4-6). That does say something about his work in the 2000s.

The Vive has destroyed the Oculus in reviews, mostly because the Oculus solely works for stationary (sitting) games and the final product still shares some of the flaws of the development kits. Instead, the Vive pulls that off better, as it has better specs, more sensors and the implementation is as good if not better, plus adding motion controls and the ability to play room-sized games standing up and moving. The Oculus didn't live up to the expectations, which is the same that happened with id games and engines since the year 2000. All hype, to the point people that pre-ordered the Oculus started cancelling theirs and got the Vive instead.

I've tried the DK2 plenty of times and my first and biggest complaint has always been the lack of motion controls. It truly is noticeable after 10 seconds of using it, because if in the game you see something that can be grabbed (pretty much all of them) you want to grab something physically, and without that the immersion is ruined. That alone makes the Vive be heads and shoulders above Carmack's design. Then comes the screen issues (you can count each pixel, unlike the Vive), and so on.

At least from the prototypes, I can say I have never been impressed with the Oculus. In 2004 or 2005 I went to DisneyWorld and back then they had better VR machines than it, which again says a lot about the Oculus being all hype.

I have yet to try room-sized VR though. People have been reporting it's quite awesome, better than sitting down still.

In the end most likely the standard in VR will be the Valve/HTC Vive, with the Facebook Oculus Rift being known as the project that started it all. Then of course people will continue to praise Carmack despite the Oculus failing due to his work, and will think Carmack was the pioneer when in fact he was contacted a long time after the project had already started.

I'm quite interested in getting either one of them in the upcoming months. Since the Vive is better guess I'll get that one.

It doesn't matter if the're from related companies, as the same happens with UE. It's a licensed engine just like almost all of them. They're still used.
Your point was that no one used id Tech in last 10 years. The games I cited prove that this is false. No amount of storytelling and twisting facts will change that they are using id Tech, and that it counts.
Actually, what does it change if id tech is used or not in the future? What does it prove in context of this discussion? Were these engines promoted as futureproof?

Facts remain:
-Romero was a map maker/designer
-He quit after Quake and that was that, 2 games. Wow. Besides, he was just one of "egos at id" and crediting him solely for doom or Q is completely unfounded. If you have time or inclination, ask Adrian or American if they would even want to speak about Romero.
-He failed to create ANYTHING of importance after his Daikatana stint. He didn't even try.

So. You might like Romero and dislike Carmack, or do the opposite, I don't care. But creating nothing of substance for the past 16 years does not point towards being any sort of "genius". Carmack ended his coding with id Tech 5, then decided to leave the industry. At least he had the good sense to say: I did all i could, I can't/dont want to do more, so I quit. I can respect that.

Romero on the other hand was completely clueless. He didn't even do much work at Ion Storm. After the No Excuses Tour he basically dropped the ball and told his team to do what he thought would be cool. He failed.

Now he's about to revive the FPS scene? Please.

Those facts are all wrong. For example Romero is a programmer (not a mere mapper) that worked in all the first id games (not only Doom 1 and Quake 1), so there's no point in further discussing until you start reading about the subject.

My point is not about me liking or disliking somebody. The whole point is this: the guys behind the gameplay and the art style of the best id games ever (Doom 1 and Quake 1) are the guys behind the new game. Therefore, they are prime candidates to make a great game of the subgenre they created. Those are John Romero and Adrian Carmack.

I wouldn't call "clueless" the very person that created the hobby you like. While John Carmack created the engines that made actual 3D FPS games possible, John Romero is the one that created the "Arena" fast paced subgenre that you like. Without Romero there's only Call of Duty, which you don't like and is what John Carmack always wanted to have in his games as he was against fast gameplay. Romero created "deathmatch" and "Quake", Carmack created "idtech1".

Carmack's work is not needed now that Unreal Engine 2, 3 and 4 blow idtech 4, 5 and 6 out of the water. What we need is someone to make the gameplay and the art style.

so there's no point in further discussing until you start reading about the subject.

I actually know the subject very well...if you want, we can analyze the entire production process of daikatana - no problem. I also know entire career of Romero - in details. Reading "masters of doom" doesn't make you an expert, sadly. Even though the book was fun.

Whats more, like I wrote before, I already pointed out that Romero wrote some stuff for quake and doom - but he was always concentrated on design, ever since he started writing comics in college. That was the case with quake, that was the case with funding ion storm. The entire anagram behind ion storm was that - vision and creation. So...care to tell me how many hours did Romero spend on programming, for example Daikatana, after leaving id? Do you even know how he managed the team and who did what then, and what was Romero's stance on programming work back then?

I wouldn't call "clueless" the very person that created the hobby you like

I would. Romero didnt "create" the genre. He was influential in fleshing its basics more 20 than years ago. If you read what I wrote and understood the words that were used, you'd see that I pointed it out. But it was 20 years ago and Romero burned out faster than Carmack, Daikatana was clueless, his attempt at mobile gaming via monkeystone was clueless, his tenure at Mdiway was clueless. These are the facts - if he's sucha genius, how come he couldn't show it?

So, basically, you still haven't proved your statement about id tech not being used in past 10 years. What's better, you still believe Romero to be a :prime candidate" to make a "great game". Well, to each his own.

If you could tell me what do you mean by "blowing id tech out of the water" i'd be grateful. Detailed technical whitepapers or comparisions are welcome.

Dishinored 2 also runs on modified idtech i think? Called void engine.

lol @ unreal engine 4 "best engine ever"

That's a lot of unfunded speculation, on his motives and decisions.

The facts are he is one ot the main influences behind doom and quake and was a creative genius alright.

He probably lacked a lot in the business part of game making. If we could hope people get wiser with age and learn from their mistakes, Romero could still rock the fps genre.

And what's this about "arena" fps? Who gives a shit about such labels. If it owns, it owns, if not meh, still worth the wait and speculation.

Daikatana is not that bad, if you played it patched up to 1.2 is a very enjoylable game, the level design from chapters 2 & 3 still stunts me, but yes, you are right.

Well, anyways, thanks to ion storm we have Deus Ex, which was a excelent game.

Big wad for old doom incoming, better than doom 2016 by shithesda for sure

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As long as he just sticks to programing and level design, and not the role of manager, he has a chance.

it's kind of ironic how bad management, the thing that ruined Daikatana supposedly has ruined Doom4 decades later.

Adrian Carmack on board!

Give Carmack and Romero a village of virgins , bond them together , make them friends again and voila .......Quake 5.

WE ARE SAVED

P.S.
Anybody have naked virgin island and few pc on it ?

just to make it clear... if romeros idea was choosen there would be no quake3 as we know it.

... but i am still happy they joined forces.

what was romero's idea?

adventure.

cba to reply to many comments here, but I recommend everyone to read Masters of Doom: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0812972155

i just finished reading this, good book=)

i dunno? i say give him a chance!

hey at least he doesn't delay his games for like 10-12 yrs

"i find your lack of faith disturbing"

Romero recent interview at Gamebeat 2016 (from venturebeat.website) July 7, 2016

Talks about a lot of stuff - from his past and what his future plans are. Blackroom game too.

He only games on macs. Interesting. Does not own a windows machine. (But has used windows machine if need be.)

http://venturebeat.com/2016/07/07/john-romero...o-created/

Is he a satanist or some cabale shit? I see he wear black nails.

o.O wtf?

Is this 2016 or this some living in the past shit?

o.O wtf?

cabale shit?

o.O wtf?

Gunman Taco Truck 2