totally depends on maps, better play some pickups and people will tell you what to do on your position.

or they will just flame you

where them guarddddd guides from 4seasons

Here!

http://www.4seasonsgaming.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=129

You use some weird generalizations so I am not sure how exactly to answer your questions.

- give specific maps you have questions about

- in turn positions and strats will change

- yes you can divide the game in to flag, mid, and att but it goes deeper then that.

- defensive position is less forgiving for faulty play compared to att. so i recommend playing att and mid more. mid requires more aim and damage giving capabilities (generally speaking) it also requires more movement and decision making.

-therefore play att at first imo. unless your aim totally rapes, then you can play mid somewhat even if you have limited knowledge on where to be at what time.

for more specific info, more detailed questions please, and yes! play pickups and listen to the ppl there.

Let's talk about Camper's Crossing then since I played it a bit last time :

As a base defender :

- shall I take the MH + the Yellow (near the teleporter) ? The two guides some people gave me advised for the defensive player to take YA + MH (Siberia / Ironworks). This is also what I tend to do in public games.
- shall I stand in the upper platform (the one you can access via a jumpad in the base or the jumpad from the large mid area) ?

I understood what you said about defensive position being harder because less forgiving, the thing is, I often played games where nobody wanted to defend...

Also, do you have any idea of the difference in position between 4v4 and 5v5 (in general) ?

on cp14 (camper crossings) the def takes mega and the middle entrance ya yes. siberia and ironworks is how you say as well. np there. you stand around the mega area on cp14 most of the time.


on ironwork you have cycle between mega / ya, help mid if possible (have rail), make sure you always have lg, and always spam the ra water in case someone tries to sneak in (grenades are great for that)

siberia is a combination of sittin in base, keeping an eye on ra area and help mid a bit from far whe nyou know ra part is safe.

yea you can play anything you want in pubs, np. i meant that for pickups or more.

the difference between 4v4 and 5v5 was either 1 more defensive player or 1 more attacking player (far more popular option) the other positions like flag def etc was not that different. STILL its not a good idea to compare both because positions "evolved" over time. flag def on spider crossings used to be sitting on top of flag and collecting ra / mega for alot of teams (atleast in na) but nowadays its using those resources to help mid whenever you can and return back fast in case someone sneaks through

http://www.4seasonsgaming.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=900

http://www.4seasonsgaming.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=903

Hey, thank you for that, that's a lot of infos there.

Where I can find this tutorials cuz it seems that this links doenst work for me : (

Sry Infuscomus, I can't help you there :(

If I were a good ctf player, I would've given you some advices for sure, considering the fact that you're a cool guy and I keep reading your articles about quakelive at esportsfrance.com :D

But if you want some advices regarding dodging/aiming, maybe I can help you :)

Can't [+] you but would have done it.

Watch team overlay and track your team mates. In games with no voip (pickups, pubs) TO is essential, whether you're an attacker or defender.

If you're attacker, use it to sync with other attacker, use it for area information (safe/unsafe) when you have the flag and want to escape/cap.

If you're a defender/mid, check your team mates health and status (do they need help?), if your defender is weak, go help, if he is stacked go help attackers. If your attackers are bringing back the flag then use TO to easily meet up with them and ensure a safe cap.

As far as the items go, here's the breakdown of most played pickup maps:
spidercrossings: mega - 120s - def, red - 60s - def, yellow - 25s - mid/att, powerups -120s - att (or stacked def in some cases)

japan: base yellow + shards - 25s - def, front (main entrance) yellow - 25s - att, powerups - 120s - att (or stacked def again).
also, this goes only for first spawn, if you're not a defender do NOT take base rocket launcher and railgun

troubledwaters: mega - 35s - def, rail & base yellow - 25s - def, red - 25s - att, medkit - 60s - att

ironworks: mega - 35s - def, shards + yellow - 25s - def, medkit - 60s - att, red - 25s - att

Not trying to rain on your parade and I haven't played in a long time, but isn't YA 30s on SC?

ya is 25 for all

im pretty sure its 30 aswell

it is

ironworks, sit at the middle, know the spawn points, play the angles (the transparent fences, 25hp bubble, etc.), +zoom, win the match by your own with a huge ego boost. Also attack (get their defense low and help stacked attacker). defend (2nd floor is awesome), hit 100% rail on the regen rune spawn, and always focus on your friendly and enemy lg/ra.

c7 mid should try to sync with enemy RA attacker, this is the hardest part of being high att position, you have to deal dmg, but don't focus to much there, the trick is to spot the enemy RA player (who attackes only when he is stacked) and dmg him as much as possible, also help your homeRA player if he needs help.

:)

^ I always ask before the match who is their main attacker in order to focus him.

+ always tell the team when someone goes through and from where.

well i don't need to ask anymore after so many games, but ye, its good to know who needs to take dmg ;)

ye binds are probably the most important part of ctf

Ok, I got a few days off and time to kill so why not.

Since you said you're gonna focus on playing defender/mid I'll give you some basic advice on the maps I feel comfortable doing so. Some of it may be wrong and I won't cover every situation so just take it for what it is. I'm actually an attacker but I've played def quite a lot..

Basics/Pure CTF theory:

The idea behind pure ctf is that there's necessary and unnecessary frags. The pure/perfect ctf'er only makes necessary frags, however there's a lot of TDMers in CTF making unnecessary frags that disrupt the flow of the game and that can actually hinder your team in CTF.

As defender you want to only frag the enemy as close to your flag as possible as this gives your attackers more time to attack, fight the enemy def and get the flag out of their base, and then get to mid and through. Quite a lot of players make useless frags in middle that just makes more respawners and then you can't attack, and you invite more pressure onto your def as well. You don't always have to engage in fights and some of the time its actually better to ignore someone even if he's shooting you. This would be the perfect pure CTF though. Its not always possible and its not so bad sometimes to just make that frag because you still relieve the immediate pressure. But the top players know to control who they frag and who to leave on low hp without getting frustrated about being fragged. A lot of the time those TDM style players are insulted as "chasers". It's up to you personally how "pure ctf" or "tdm" you want to be as both styles can be effective.

Japanese Castles:

Stay in the box 99% of the time, but don't be scared to replenish your GL, SG and RL ammo. Spam grenades low as much as possible while listening for enemies coming behind you from high, also keep watching for binds because a lot of attackers will tell you where incoming enemies will be. Always keep a time on YA and don't let enemy attackers steal it. That YA platform is their best chance to kill you because they're raised above the flagroom so its easier for them to hit rockets onto you and harder for you to get splash damage. The low entrance also has a lot of health bubbles so its the most dangerous place to get attacked from. If you get a spawn in enemy garden, your first thought has to be to get back to your base, but if enemy PU is coming soon then go to that and help your team to steal it. You can also decide to attack if you think it'll be more successful because sometimes on the way back to your base, the enemy attacker can get the flag and you won't know where he is. It's up to you to work that out and it comes with experience to know which is the right choice. The key is not to kill anyone at mid and only kill them around your box. The most annoying thing for your attackers is a defender who's fragging enemies that just spawned.

Spider Crossings:

Keep a time on RA and MH, and help mid every time you got more than 100 50. Come to mid powerup as well but don't get too pushy to take it. Its not impossible to defend an enemy double PU on this map as long as you have your own regen. So try to help get it, but make sure that you secure the regen. At this time you can go low and stay at regen to defend it. Alternatively you can stay high around the shaft and let your mid and attacker defend the regen, while you stop any attacks on it coming from the upper. If your team got the flag then go to mid to try and help him get across. Main message for this map is to always know where enemies are coming, keep timing of RA and MH, and to stay mid-side of your own flag so that you're never behind the EFC chasing him.

Troubled Waters:

This map is all about the defender imo. Keep timing of MH, AT ALL TIMES here. Your main job is actually to help mid here, but always go back if enemy is coming through water or coming into your base. Not too far back, always be close enough that you can easily get back to mid. Thing about this map is that you always want to have the most players hitting rails at mid to control RA while having attacking pressure from your offs. From an off's point of view, one of them should always be rushing through water or high to pull back the def from helping mid. You can also get your attackers to come back to defend the water for you if you need to stay on mid, but you need good communication for that.

Ironworks:

It's similar to Troubled Waters in that you need to be helping mid as much as possible, but there's no RA there so you can be more defensive. Keep time of MH and YA, and stay high at all times. You can cap in 7 seconds through high, so be in position to stop them before they ever get there. There's also grenades just around the corner that you can spam into your home ra water. If your team got the flag then always look for a way to help mid and get the cap. Main thing to take away on this map is just to stay high as you have access to MH and you stop a quick enemy cap at the same time. It's the job of your team mates to manage the health of enemies and such here, don't overextend too much.

Courtyard:

This is the most fun map to defend for me. Time both YAs and medkit, and run around with LG. Fun! Try to make sure enemies aren't stealing your medkit or MH, and always be there for your PU. It's really a dynamic position because with your high/mid def you can really extend and even push enemy PU and medkit at times, and help your FC into your base through the lower halls. It's not so important to stay on the flag because you can catch them out if you stay low and you've got a high def/mid helping you.

Infinity:

Keep time of MH and get a stack, get RL/LG/RG and push out as far as possible without dying, try to rail from mid especially. Never go to quad because you'll die. It's more important to stay alive on this map so that you're always there to kill incomings. It's the easiest map to defend anyway with all the chokepoints and as an off I really hate this map.

So that's what I'm comfortable to say on those maps, some of it is a bit too strict for pub play, particularly the pure ctf part, but if you got a good player on your team he'll appreciate the way you're playing. The thing is that playing your position correctly is only helpful if your team mates are playing a position that compliments what you're doing, so its best to play in a team that appreciates and understands CTF, and the way that positions interplay with each other. If you wanna see clear examples of that then watch old demos of bface and k1ck. Remember all that I said is just focused on the defender position, its actually quite a complicated game when you start writing it all out :)

/baerlic
ps. potatoes gonna potate

On Troubled, I wouldn't be too radical about timing MH and going back every time. When you kill 2 attackers, you can safely push to rail and prevent them from crossing mid altogether because of 100% visibility. Once you have visual, or console confirmation that enemy attackers are pushed back, there's really no danger to your mega. And you can use it to re-stack yourself right when you think they will break in.

This , though, conflicts with basic CTF principle of performing defender role, which you kind of towed around with a bit on other maps. It's not to only protect the flag, but let your attackers be able to take the flag out. And if you decide to own the middle , that means your attackers will face 2 stacked defenders + 2 peons on enemy base, and it's impossible to confront enemy for their resources and take the flag out. I've been to games where your team dominates middle , but cannot take flag out for 20 min because you force enemy to play 4D.

It's simply important to re-assess the situation mid game and see what enemy flow your team prefers to have. If you are D 200/200, you can take some heat at home wasting enemy's time while your team is working on bring flag out of hot zones. It comes down to high risk vs lack of result assessment.

Some general advice here: http://massman.dk/ctf/

If a teammate carries the flag or a PowerUp *ALL* items are his.

Do not steal armour/health/PU in front of your flag or PU carrier.

Use Quad/Haste for attacking, not defending. The enemy team will expect you to attack with Quad/Haste, so they increase defence at THEIR base leaving you wasting the PowerUp in YOUR base without any enemies.

If you have the flag during cross-steals (when both flags are taken to opposite bases) your #1 priority is to stay alive. Do not take ANY chances and run away if need be. Don't try to be a hero.

Depending on your health/armour/aim/movement you might want to /drop the flag to a teammate.

Prioritize FLAGS above anything else. If your flag is taken and your teammates are trying to intercept, do not spam "MEGA HERE" 3000 times, just take it.

Some of the guidelines are overruled depending on the status of the friendly flag, enemy flag, teammates, enemies, PUs, armours, etc. Unfortunately the combinations are too numerous to list, use a bit of common sense to determine if a rule does not apply in a certain situation. Basically I added this line since people kept asking me "in guideline 6 you say that I should do this, but what if this happens... and what if this... and what if..." Although I enjoy discussing CTF tactics, try thinking a bit for yourself :)


------- Basic advice for attackers ------

Leave armours/health in your base for your defenders. Attackers steal mid/enemy armours. In NTF leave ammo and back packs for your defenders since it is their only ammo source, they need it BADLY.

Use PowerUps properly. Good defenders know you are coming, so storming in using haste and 100/0 is stupid - you will die 90% of the time. Wait for your attack partner and/or get armour.

Keep an eye on your teammates' health/armour/PU status. Stealing the flag in front of a teammate who has 200/200 + haste is extremely stupid. Use your drop flag bind if you take flag by accident.

Leave weapons dropped in your base that are usually out of reach. For instance on q3wcp14; leave rocketlaunchers in base - RL spawn is FAR away so your flagdef has NO chance of getting an RL. On q3wcp1/cpmctf2 leave railguns, on q3w3/q3wcp15 leave shafts and so on.

Your primary role is to bring the flag home so don't chase enemies your own base or middle. If you frag an enemy attacker he will just respawn in front of you and you'll have to deal with him again. By all means shoot at people, but keep moving towards the enemy base, don't stop or turn around.

Ignore irrelevant enemies when you are carrying the flag and don't worry too much about enemies BEHIND you, especially not when they only have an MG. If you frag them they are likely to respawn in front of you, which is much worse.

Rocketjump more. A rocketjump deals 50 damage at most. That's NOTHING compared to the enemy rails, rockets or shaft that you could have avoided with a rocketjump.

Intercept the enemy flag carrier. When your flag is stolen consider stopping your attack and instead intercept the EFC, dependant on your current position.

---- Basic advice for defenders ------

Your role is NOT to frag people, it is to prevent captures, frags are just a bi-product. Inexperienced defenders will often chase retreating attackers, abandoning their defensive position.

Flag defender: Accept that you simply CANNOT stop all flag carriers and do not chase if they get out of reach. Concentrate on securing your base and leave it to your teammates to intercept. If your base is lost, your flag will just get stolen again after it is returned.

2nd/forward defender: Secure middle to escort your flag carrier. Good opponents will try to intercept your flag carrier at the middle of the map. This means there will often be no attacks while your team has the flag and you should push forward instead of idling back in base.

If a flag gets dropped in a position that makes it difficult for attackers to get it, for instance on jumppads, do not return it. Leaving it gives you 30 seconds of easy defending (until the flag returns by itself)
In fact you shouldn't return flags unless absolutely forced. The fastest attackers can steal your flag from its spot at high speeds and exit your base even faster. Any uncertainty of your flag's location makes it MUCH more difficult for attackers as they can't attack on autopilot.

During cross steals (when both flags are taken to opposite bases) your role switches from defending flag spot, to defending your flag carrier. It is pointless to guard the empty flag spot as enemies won't go there, they are trying to frag your flag carrier.

When your teammates are about to get the enemy flag home return any dropped flag. DO NOT make your flag carrier stand on an empty flag spot since he WILL have enemies chasing him. Get close to your flag carrier so you can quickly take the flag if he gets killed.

http://ql.esdf.in/

edit: demos archive mentioned in the guide,
http://www.esdf.in/owncloud/public.php?servic...ztwz4q0brh

plus for the effort.

also, what i forgot to include (which i did now) is link to demos:

http://www.esdf.in/owncloud/public.php?servic...ztwz4q0brh

Discovered a useful tool looking at the source, pdf2htmlEX. Actively developed and everything!

ye it was converted with that :D