Unreal Tournament?

Yup - Unreal Tournament - game that prolly will be CSGO of arena shooters.

Fuck I hope not. Unless it's the first, then maybe, but no.

The skill ceiling of most of these games will probably never be reached.

Even if you break up the game play into individual elements and introduce a separate skill ceiling for each of those, people still wouldn't be able to them.

Skill ceiling in aim is 100% acc (-spam), for most of the weapons.
Skill ceiling in movement is perfect cjs, not a single botched strafe or rj, basically at least as good as a defrag world record while playing a normal game.
Skill ceiling in timing is timing everything to the second.

Now you could argue that UT has a higher skill ceiling because the target size (head) is way smaller or for any other reason of your choice, but finally it is inconsequential because the skill ceiling in both games/series is simply out of reach.

your explanation is purely technical and doesn't account for positioning/strategy skill, which is arguably more important than technical abilities (once a certain level is reached). no?

Yes, this is a valid observation. I stuck to technical skills because with those the skill ceiling can be precisely defined, thus it was easier to show that these ceilings are clearly out of reach.

I believe that the same concept can be applied to strategy/positioning or any other skill but it might not be as easy to demonstrate that nobody ever came remotely close to those ceilings.

In the end I would guess the fierceness of competition will be a more influential factor than theoretical skill ceilings. E.g. it might be considerably harder to become the best individual CS:GO player than to become the best painkiller or Q4 player.

and what are your views on Monopoly?

:P

I have never played monopoly, nor do I know the rules.

LoL = highest skill ceiling
2GD said that.

btw. TF2 got quite high skill ceiling if you want to use all classes.

oh well if 2GD said it...

2gd hates LoL last I heard, are you sure he wasnt pulling some top english sarcasm out of the bag?

2GD loves LoL.

Nah breh. He thinks riot is satan and LoL players are casuals.

Which weirdly implies he must think Dota 2 players arent causals but I think they are both pretty casual. I have 400 hours in Dota 2 but theres no denying its a casual game, its just slightly less casual than LoL

Nah brah. 2GD is SLL -> Secretly loves LoL.

If I see any of this shit in Reborn I am gonna be pi$$ed

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/ch...nnie_2.jpg

awesome stuff for enemy model ;)

Doesn't matter how high the skill ceiling is if the game is shit.

LoL is a JOKE compared to Quake, this is an objective fact.
Of course he is going to be big upping LoL now that he is milking big cash from it. I can't wait for the stupid trend to be over.

honestly I was just trolling :P

Fast-paced FPS games and RTS games will always be at the highest tier.
Everything else is child's play.

MOBAs (doesn't matter which one) are at the lower end if not at the bottom for sure.

I'd say fighting games are up there too.

this isn't a circle jerk at all

Highest skill ceiling = caber toss (that Scottish athletic event where Highland warriors throw tree logs as far as possible), because one day some cunt will throw a log with mass so huge that the momentum achieved will propel the Earth into the Sun, like it was a snooker/pool ball.

Infa 100% (my da's got a PhD in Physics)

Who will prevent this?!

me

doubt that

Posting in a caber toss thread.

C A B E R T O S S
A
B
E
R

T
O
S
S

Thanks to give to myself a profund knowledge in physics.

posting in troll thread

ins
ceiling
lol

give me my 10 seconds back.

One of the highest. Up there with stacraft. Dunno about fighting games and unreal.

Just to clear things up ...

A skill ceiling is a theoretical limit, which by definition can never be reached.

The game with the most motivated players competing will typically be closest to reaching its respective skill ceiling.

Comparing the skill ceilings of various games is a waste of time.

Games with the highest skill ceiling are simply the RTS and fast paced arena games, below that are the moba and CS and there below CoD...

Chess.

/thread

/opens thread

Go > Chess

There, now we can
/thread

If you have ever seen someone like bleh playing UT99 CTF in offense, then you must at least consider that this is the zenith of FPS skill.

There's just so much going on simultaneously compared to duel.
The comms, the frantic weapon switching, two fire modes, both flags out of the base... and on top if that you still have to hit that combo miles away, surrounded by 4 enemies etc etc

Quakeworld 4v4, you need to bind a lot of team commands and communicate with that, even if you're using TS or mumble for example. Plus that you need to read all the ones from your teammates and still playing next to it too.

Yes that definitely adds depth to play, good comment.

May I second Quake 2 4v4 standard 20min matches:
A high level tdm'er needs multiple location binds/health status updates to communicate with teammates, while noting powerup times.

Since there are more weaps in use than any other quake, you need various ammo drops to teammates(loooong weap/ammo respawn times AND shit default blaster).

On dm1 and dm2 for example, someone needs to constantly drop rockets to the lift controllers. Or on dm5, the stationary red armor room guard needs to communicate armor avail. updates, control the lift(letting teammates down while keeping out enemies who can attack from blind water side) and supply teammates with chain gun(and whore it from enemies, since there's only one on the whole map).

And haven't even touched on running/killing quads...goes on and on. Fun stuff :)

Sounss exactly the same as QW 4on4 :D, but yeah it adds a lot of depth but also fun! Tbh I only played like a hour of Q2 ffa like a month ago, but Q2 looks fun too :)

Jesus these comparisons are ridiculous.

It's like comparing chalk and cheese.

I've never seen any COD player or CS player that is damn good at said game to come into Quake and destroy shit, however any Quake player that is fairly decent will be able to play COD and CS at a lot higher level than the filthy casual that just joins in, now there are a few other elements that need to be mastered to make yourself adept at the said game and I'm sure most people can see this for themselves. Not to mention a MOBA takes a completely different skill set because it is team based and it's pretty complex if you've actually made the effort into learning a game like that.

In a nutshell, you can use Quake almost as a training device to make yourself better at FPS gaming in general. This little debate will probably continue until the coming of our lord and savior Jesus Christ, hence the whole quake/chess analogy over the years.

you can use quake to make yourself a smarter person and to solve your ego issues not so much to help you with fps games specifically.
however someone who has improved and become good at quake can easily become good in any game because of quake's complexity.
still thought that doesn't make quake the master game

much truth about the ego thing

i've never seen a quake player go and be successful in cs, and vice versa.

If you mean team based then you've not read my post correctly, if you mean skill based then you've not played quake/cs as much.

You had Dark back in the early 2000s, he was a Quake player, but he became pretty succesfull at CS, but I have to say, the level was way lower in CS back than.

this is a pretty common misconception among quakers.. makes us egotistical faggots imo but o whalee...

QUAKE DOES NOT MAKE YOU A FUCKING GENIUS

BEING GOOD AT QUAKE DOES NOT MEAN YOU WILL GIVE GOOD PLAYERS FROM FPS GAMES YOUR 1500 ELO SLAPCH0P, YOU STILL HAVE TO LEARN TO PLAY THE OTHER GAME, BUT IT MIGHT BE EASIER TO LEARN IT SINCE QUAKE IS SO FUCKING HARD AND WILL TURN U INTO A VIKING NERD VIRGIN IF U DECIDE TO PLAY FOR A LONG TIME..

Also in quake, from what I can tell in the 4-5 yrs I've been playing... experience > everything. aim, timing, any other natural ability which may be easy for someone to pick up, doesn't matter how good u are, some corner rocket shooting faglet will always be able to kill u quicker.

Reason why u dont see any cod player coming to CS or quake is because cod is mostly on consoles, and imo it's way bigger than fps on pc at the moment. For anyone that follows, cod has huge following compared to any fps (even csgo)

Although there are a few Cod pros (on console) who play CSGO and are quite good, not godlike but they're not shitty idiots as we make them out to be.

I think CoD and CS GO are pretty even how big they are esport wise, sure CoD is a bigger esport in NA than CS, but CS is bigger than CoD in EU esport wise.

Sure COD can be big on console, but it's console, so you lose anyway.

COD and CS top players don't play quake because it simply doesn't make sense, to play a dead game.

While it makes much more sense for a top quake player to switch to Cod or Cs, now. The prizepools are immense and enough to live only of it and the sponsorships, if you're good enough.

But it never happened that a quake player switched and became a top Cod/cs player. Wich tells you anything that you need to know about their chance of success.

If they don't switch, renouncing to potentially "easy moneys" and sponsorships, its exactly because the various Cypher, Rapha, Cooller, Evil, and the likes, knows perfectly they wouldn't stand a chance in those other games.

Not really because of teorethical skill ceilings or other ipothetical bullshits (as someone already explained, nobody can hit the skill ceiling, because it means 100% aim, defrag-like runs, milliseconds timing, and shit like that; NOBODY is perfect, in any game, except maybe the few guitar heroes players and the like);

but because the human potential pools in those other games are IMMENSE compared to the quake drying puddle.

It's not a case that ALL the actual top quakers comes from the q3 era, when the players pool was at least an order of dimension bigger than the actual ql one.

Not a single top player have been developed in the quake live era. Not a single one.

There where a few Quake players who became pretty successfull players in CS in the early 2000s.

it doesn't fucking matter

this can never be answered, so who really gives a shit.

just for kicks, i nominate bullet hell shooters

You _could_ argue that these bullet hell shooters are more memorization than anything. After all, the bullet patterns aren't random (thank goodness).

Whereas in a quake game for example, an opponent can adapt and do different things.

i know it's all memorization
some are made to be unbeatable tho( without continuing)

don't care to debate this , wasn;t a truly serious reply
cheers

Even still though, they're really, really difficult. I don't know how anyone beats say, dodonpachi, even though I've seen it done in videos or w/e. Those games are just insane.

quite a few ppl in here got baited by atfab

cooller

SSBM.

LOLOLOL quek playas still think quek give much iq isnt it??!?! Lol

As stated before, a skill ceiling can never be reached.

So which game has the most individual skill ceilings? Which game has the most of them that you can do at once?

NO LOL

so much elitism in this thread, brb, gonna puke the quake rainbow

when a community becomes elitist there's no room for new players

yup. i've seen this kind of behaviour in ET, and it seems its part of Quake aswell.

You are Polish, this is relevant http://frag-executors.com/artykul/nie-chcecie...laski.html

funneh. this kinda proves how much im right about esr fegs killing q4 :D

wut? Elaborate

said a cpmer lul

Any community of any even slightly competitive game will have a constant circlejerk going on how their game is the hardest and most skill based. It's not something people have much of a clue about or are willing to have an actual discussion about, but they talk about it anyway.

So I'd say this thread is the equivalent of a fourteen year old wearing an anarchy t-shirt.

Actually people in the CS community know Quake is the harder game.

It's not something people have much of a clue about or are willing to have an actual discussion about, but they talk about it anyway.

Registered: 8 Mar 2014

Please point to the people partaking in these discussions who play or at least understand multiple games from different genres on a higher level.

I don't know shit about LoL or Dota so I don't talk about them (or compare them to Quake).

I hold that Dota is easier than Quake. It was evident before I played tons of Dota, but when I played it it confidmed this notion, despite the fact that I suck at both Dota and Quake (I understand them better than I play, I like to think).

My opinion on this whole discussion is such.

This is what dampens the discussion, the oldschoolers are all like "OMG all games are equal because no reason stfu idiot!"

Meanwhile, my basic premise for judging games in terms of their skillcaps is such.

But if you lurk around, you'll find examples of people wtih high skill in dota saying that. Like Oreozz, IIRC.

And in general, people love to say that there's no skill difference in games, because it's asocial to say otherwise. But then they're like "Quake/scbw is sooo hard". And they do tend to say that more about Quake and starcraft, for example. Many oldschoolers do. So it's doublethink to hold these two opinions, yet people do it.

Hm. I have a real hard time thinking about these things. You give an interesting solution in your second link, but I would like a more qualitative approach, that isn't depending on what the playerbase can actually do in their respective games (because the games are always evolving, e.g. you can't really compare QL pre-Evil vs QL post-Evil).

But if I do this, I hit walls really quickly. I can't even get to a conclusion whether aiming (or let's say, "doing dmg") is harder in CS or in Quake. Do the spray patterns make it easier or harder to hit everything? Could we theoretically see hits like these all the time in CS? Why aren't we? (Edit: Actually, when I watched the vid again, some of the frags were actually very RNG-dominated. But I think the point still stands)

shieeeeeeeet that video. needs a 60 fps reup.

You don't have to just look at what they do, you can look at what skills are possible, too. If you're the first one who figured out strafejumping and nobody does it yet, it's another skill in the game.

Aiming in CS and Quake is indeed hard to compare. CS has more "precision" aiming, and has recoil which Quake doesn't. CS also has movement interaction with aim. However, recoil is a 2D game against the computer as players hardly move while shooting.
Quake meanwhile has strafing, and, most importantly, it has projectile weapons, which also allow for prediction shots, which I'd say makes for a more complex aim. Not in all ways harder, just harder overall.



You can compare all aspecs of the game like that, and you'll get more definitive results than these usually. Comparing micro & macro in sc:bw to that in Dota or LoL is very definitive, for example. Stacraft just is mechanically 10x harder.

most players in all games are shit and anyone above average in any game can shit on the shit players of the other game because players are in general shit

shit

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