yes.

Should be 100 damage max

yep, keep the spread-increase, make it 100 dmg

The spread was nerf enough. Dunno why they lowered the damage. You should be rewarded for getting all the bullets in that large spread up close and personal

Yeah, and the shotgun is 1.0 firerate right? so having it give same damage as rocket that fires at .8 firerate? If they were worried about long range damage they could cure that with falloff damage on the pellets.

Makes me curious to why they make shotgun a hitscan or immediate hit weapon. Couldn't a shotgun be a multiple projectile weapon?

My idea was 1.0 firerate 110 damage rocket being .8 gives 100, so for the extra .2 time per fire you get 10 dmg reward if you hit all pellets. Especially since there is no splash damage on the shotgun.

If this is the opinion in a month, we'll gladly change it.

ok, and get crackin on ladders

How much that around april people will be nostalgic of february ?

Bring old damage back with new spread!

the opinion of the general public doesn't matter, embrace your inner arqon


but seriously, it's much better now, before there was just no structure and it was utter chaos. it can still be chaotic now but at least you can get an edge if you are just a better fighter and your team is more coordinated. you are also rewarded more for the control you manage to get, although you aren't rewarded as much as you were in osp still due to the new spawn system. but it's a big improvement still, it's something teams have to adjust to.

i'd highly contest those who think that the weaker mg and sg make it too difficult to get back into the game. it's actually ironic to some degree because, if you get a team of really strong aimers like fnatic, (or pretty much any team considering how easy it was to hit with it) the sg is their strength as well as it is yours. it just becomes a contest of whichever spawner comes across a shotgun first on his journey back to one of the more important areas such as quad, RA, rail or whatever. so there is little control to speak of in the first place.

the other counter-intuitive thing about this claim is that, due to the lack of control possible the team who is down with the old sg/mg will always struggle to come back because limited amount of control means the team who is ahead can never really gain a significant edge - this works both ways. if your team manages to outplay the other team through a series of marvellous manoeuvres which are a spectacle to witness, they are actually hard to get excited about as players and spectators because the control (implied frags) that they are earning their team can be so little for the amazing work that they did. i would however argue now that the situation is better although it can still be chaotic.

so in this situation of one team in control, with the old damage and spread, if you manage to kill one of them, his teammate just palms a shotgun off to him and you are still in a terrible situation. or he can still do 100 damage with his mg to you despite the fact you should be rewarded with control for killing him and the spawner should never be in a position to mitigate that by himself. the game just had less structure, and still will for some months until more teams adjust.

a team should not be rewarded for dying - and this is essentially what happens a lot of the time with the old sg/mg variables; you die and you spawn with an mg and 125hp. this mitigates a lot of the positive effect of that kill and the control that should come with it. of course you can go too far either way, and make the spawner too useless or too strong and it's just finding a good balance for ql. in qw because of the way the weapons work the spawner is quite weak, but due to the spawn system, the movement, and how many implied frags come from control (other factors too) - this weakness is justified.

mr essay strikes again :I

This!

[+]'d for "embrace your inner arqon" :D

thank you dandaking

+d

sg is fine at 80. leave it the fuck alone. its still $$ at close range. u have to actually think and be careful with it to get a frag. no more free kills.

yeah, make it useless against rockets.... If sg stays as it is now, then RL needs to be seriously nerfed

It wouldn't be "useless", just "weaker". Rockets should righfully rule Quake. The fact that sg could claim a place next to that most magnificent of weapons troubled me deeply. Thankfully id has restored the natural order of things.

it has a shorter reload, is easier to aim and probably delivers on average more damage per hit for someone who doesnt suck, all at close range. this is what it is meant to do. now stfu and go away thanks.

haha, how newbish u are? U dont seem to understand that with rockets you can do so much more than dmg, you can force opponent to certain spots and after you land one rocket u will land x amount of direct rockets very easily...

l2p and comment after that

Even Carmack himself stated that you do not want to build a game off of vote but to get feedback. For many people the shotgun was random enough prior. Let's hope they stick to what Carmack stated in one of his keynote address and NOT build quake based off the opinion of esreality, esreality is awesome but should not be the people creating quake!

I hope you base your decision on statistics and not on a bunch of whiners on forums, or so called "pro" players.

put dmg to 100 and leave this new spread. Nerfing it so much is just not that necessary.

Always amazes me how ppl make up their minds in just 5 min, most of them not even having played 1 match. Einsteins all over the place.

the most disturbing part is theire calculating based on their hunch.They say 110 is too much then they drop to 80 (30dmg!!!!) just like that.Instead gradually decreasing for 5 every month to see how it actually turns out..LOL

well now it should be renamed from super shotgun to shotgun :p because theres no super stuff in it now.

yeah, making separate damage values for different modes is retarded, i rly like the damage it deals in CTF atm, ppl started coming closer and delay fire to deal more dmg <3

btw what do u guys think of making mg 4dmg/bullet but with reduced spread(not removing it, but reducing about twice or so, dunno what's the value for it) in all modes? i think that would be a gr8 idea to counter rail better(since there's basically no alternative to that weapon at long range other than spam atm) and close fights would be nerfed as much as they are atm, once again im talking not only about tdm

syncerror said the counter to rail is rocket explosions taking up the entire view, hence not adding cg_nomip.

separate damage values for different modes is definitely not retarded. U cant balance TDM and DUEL the same way.

of course you can, it's called quake 1 and quake 2

vq3/osp had different mg value depending on mode, but i agree sg should be 100

agree, spread and 100 max was enough

110 damages!

I thought the same in the beginning, but it just takes time to get used to the fact, that you cant use it for mid/long range fighting anymore.

When I look at random "weapon frags" stats, people still do a similar number of kills with sg than with the other weapons.

Like sync said, let's just wait a month and see how it turns out.

I think its fine the way it is; it should be a second tier weapon, and the rl /lg should dominate in anything other than point blank, I really hope it stays at 80 until dreamhack tdm is over :)

you didnt use it in q3 for mid either, but it was still devastating at close...like it was supposed to.

it doesn't matter how sg was in q3

The ole idea don't fix what's not broken, if so many people raved and though q3 was the pwn why would they kill it by rearranging #@!. Now this just promotes people using rockets in place of the shotgun cause of the diminished radius and splash damage. To exaggerate--just remove all weapons but -lg, rl, and rg and call it game.

I liked the original ssg the most.. but I can deal with the nerfed version. However the nerfed tdm version is far too nerfed! I agree with the majority here in saying that it should behave the same as it does in the other modes.

Also default quad should be 4x! :) (I'm aware it was 3x in q3)

Also BS shouldn't take splash damage

It's a new thing, as 4x quads.

It's fine from my view. Just takes a bit to get used to. It's still dangerous as hell if you dodge in to close combat = Just like it should!

SG's fine now.

been watching a few pickups and see people complain about it endlessly, but then, its really because they use it when they really arent supposed to.

its like trying to shaft someone from rail to battlesuit on dm14 and complain when he doesn't die, shotgun isnt, and shouldnt be, a long distance gun

not saying its perfect as it is though, just saying its not bad

just as i started getting used to overusing sg this happens

- 110 max. damage
- spread and pattern as it is right now
- ?
- profit

ah, and more ammo for mg :)

mg needs 5 dmg again imo, its fucking useless atm i mean really what can you do if your teams losing? your just gonna get fucked over and over unless your hitting 50% mg

l2aim then

Trololololol

i thought hitting 40mg was good nowadays lol, evolution and all that... looks like we all need to learn to hit 50 now :(

Ever played ET? people on there with 50 acc consistently since 2007.

iv tried to play it but never got it to work, still tho its not the same, they wouldn't hit 50 mg in ql

Most of the ET players hit crazy percentages in QuakeLive.

yea im sure they do but i really doubt they would be hitting 50% mg in TDMs

yea, we don't.

no, they don't

don't rush the other team, get with teammates give each other extra guns, steal some armors, attack quad

rinse repeat?

Dont just try to mg cess people with ur teammate.. rofl. What is that? really?

im talking more of, spawn, see some fucker infront of you when you spawn, batter 40% mg into him and then take 2 rockets, die

rinse repeat and get no kills with mg

its not as easy as you think to get weapons when the teams just locking everything down... iv not actually played a pcw with the changes yet but just pickups and theres not much u can do when your teams shit

You mg him until u know u cant kill him (too strong) or he realizes u are there and runs at u. Or just spawn and see him and then run away.

Point of TDM is to stay alive and keep control of areas and powerups.

It's not to frag and die frag and die frag and die. That's bullshit and how newbs play it.

and thats impossible without a wep

if you suck

good comeback, but were not talking about public TDM here so i wouldnt bother

"im talking more of, spawn, see some fucker infront of you when you spawn,"

if he's got a gun in this situation, you should die.

lol. QL tdm players are such pussies.

When QL tdm finally starts to become decent people start to cry they can't come back into the game, because their spawn weapon doesn't deal enough damage.

Imo ql tdm is starting to become interesting. More tactics and teamplay will be needed.

i'm not really talking about team games cos i haven't played any yet, i meant pickups etc really

it is fine in ctf really. i agree maybe a slight increase in tdm (90-100) with the current spread.

It's fine as it is right now imo.

Though I didnt try ctf yet, I think a 90 dmg max on CTF would be good aswell (seriously could never stand that some randoms could rack up retarded and undeserved frags on cp1 just by rushing in like a mofo).

Same goes for the defense: when you have eki that actually starts to scare the shit out of me with his 'waitin around the corner' sg frags, you know there's a serious balance problem on the weapons...


Now now I did read some positive comments from a few ctf players here so I might be wrong and an additional relative nerf to SG on CTF might not be necessary.

It's kinda funny really. I played a ctf pickup today on cp1 and forgot that the shotgun changed.

Needless to say, I was fucking terrible in it. The funny part is, eki was on my team, and he whined about SG being useless. It's at that point I realized it was changed and switched to RL more (too little too late tbh).

It just feels a shit ton weaker. I guess that's a good thing since it's meant to be a lower tier weapon. Gonna take some getting used to since I've started whoring it when it was buff

quad sg is pathetic now... used to be way over-powered though. i had a full quad run, spamming somewhat accurate sg shots, and no one was dying. at that time i didn't know there had been a nerf for it damage wise, but it really showed then. too weak now atm i think

use shaft for quadruns, omg

use pummel for quadruns, omg


*fixed

idiot

neidisch?

*quad is pathetic now

sg is fine now

The shotgun fucking sucks, and the MG is utterly useless.

Terrible nerfs.

20x5 pls:)

I agree that previous SG power was a bit too overpowered, but i still think players should get some kind of a reward by getting a close distance and scoring a full hit. 80 dmg per full hit just doesnt seem like a proper reward. With the wider spread for avoiding the long-range shotgun harras i think 90-100 damage would be more rewarding the risk a player has to take.

I completely agree. 100 with this spread.

yeah I also agree. old damage, new spread.

In all other modes it is fine as it is now, but in TDM it is really underpowered. 20x5 would be fine.

Damage 100 pls

ITT: useless posts, apart from ddk's one

The changes feel good. Probably needs more then a month to decide if they are absolutely correct though, so lets not be too hasty on changing anything back before we have all adapted our play style first.

Fear hasty id:)

Opinion.

Onion

leave as it is, its excellent now

agreed.

All will get used to it...

There was alot of whine about the RG being 80dmg as it has been in ql, compared to q3 100dmg (needless to explain really).

<polemic>

In q3/osp the weapons were glorious and exciting to use, in ql they are tamed and nerf'd and forced in to sensible and appropriate roles. You'd never want to pull out a rail gun at close range in ql but in q3 it was worth a gamble.
id stop listening to tdm players and lets try to have some fun!

If a fresh spawner with no armour and mg is somehow overpowered compared to most of the other players on the server then is the problem with mg dmg or is it a sign that tdm is a flawed gametype?

rl will be next on the list...

</polemic>


:)

well said

You'd never want to pull out a rail gun at close range in ql

k1llsen

agreed i guess, btw

"You'd never want to pull out a rail gun at close range in ql but in q3 it was worth a gamble. "

if you're not a terrible dodger, this still works out in a gamble kind of way

If a fresh spawner with no armour and mg is somehow overpowered compared to most of the other players on the server then is the problem with mg dmg or is it a sign that tdm is a flawed gametype?

so? if tdm works better with lower dmg values for mg/sg then why the hell would you not lower them? it does not matter if you think tdm is flawed or not, if a simple change like that is better for the game, why would you not change it?
discussing game/mode mchanics is one thing, doing the best for the game we have is another

As a sound engneer I have to mix tracks. Trying to achieve a subtle balance between many sounds is difficult for noobs and they can get in loops where they push up/down the volume of one thing, then the next, then the next until they've gone through every thing and gotten no where.
Now that mg and sg are much weaker lg and rl have become much more important. It won't be long before people will start calling for them to be nerf'd.
If these changes are confined to tdm then I really don't mind what the damages are but I think that high skilled tdm players strongly influence the balance of weapons across all gametypes.

Back in q3 with 100 rail damage a new spawning player could easily be killed with a rail and some mg spray. The point of rail seemed to be that a player would be fraggable with out some armour. Changing rail damage to 80 totally upset the ballance of the weapons and they still haven't settled years later.

The difference is that in sound engineering, you're not just turning up or down instruments to help them fit in the mix. You're giving each instrument a space to do their thing.

Think of Quake's weapons as instruments. They're all different sounding so give them there own space for the different purposes and results they give. That's balance. Not simply making one louder or softer

Yes exaclty, in a mix you would think of some other way to imporve the balance not just making something louder/quieter. Why not spawn with weak mg and pick up strong mg or strong mg ammo?

I'm a TDM player.
Machine is nosense. maybe for people that can track on 40% machine should be good, for people that aim on 32-33 it's useless.
Shotty is... uhmmm... ah! it's BBRRRRRRRRRR OMG.
In my opinion, nerf 5uck.
Was better before, i don't want play CS, i want Quake.
Exergy

Okay, having played with it a bit in all game modes, the general conclusion for me (whether you agree with it or not)

Machine gun - It's now a water pistol. Does little to fuck all. Still, that's not necessarily a bad thing in TDM
Shotgun - In TDM it just feels pointless. Mainly I got too used to whoring it but to get a decent amount of damage from it, you need to get so up close and personal, you might as well use a pummel.

deleted my old post cause I changed my mind :D
SG is to low now, something between the old and the new would be nice. Also LG is superdominant with these changes. I would keep the mg as it is now tho.

Wouldn't be opposed to 5x20 with SG and 5 per with MG.

mg is perfect with 4. sg just needs better super-close range damage

Meh, starting with 40 bullets @ 4dmg a shot just feels useless

A new spawner shouldnt be rewarded with a 'strong' gun in hand, I think it should be fairly weak. Gauntlet would be useless :D

starting weapon feeling useless is a good sign, like yellack said, why would you be rewarded with a strong gun after dying.

Be glad its not the q2 blaster ... :p

yep, just keep nerfing all the weapons, esr needs a -

I don't know if 5 dmg really qualified it as a strong weapon, 7 dmg for sure, maybe increase the starting ammo from 40 to 50.

all? his post is explicitly about the starting weapon being inferior to the other guns?

After playing some games yesterday, I stick with opinion that weapons needs a small changes. If MG damage stays, more ammo is needed. SG needs a little boost in TDM, perhaps 90 or 100 dmg with new spread.

Shotgun was better before it was nerfed. Change it back

Lamers don't like SG nerf, becose it was easest way in tdm to kill.
Respawn with 125 hp, take sg and go vabank, to kill 2 enemys, who have guns. it's not tdm...
Ofcors now lamers whining and crying. GET SKILL!

I dont want SG back as it was, it was for sure overpowered, but theres quite a gap between before and now. The main problem now in my opinion is that with those changes LG becomes way to important/powerful.

in tdm you often are out of ammo with LG after 1-2 kills. with sg you can have fun for a long time.

not really

you need lets say 2-3 shoots with sg to make a kill in average.Which means youre missing -60dmg after 2 shoots.But that is only if you hit FULL damage,which means that in the end cause of bigger spread you are actually missing lets say -100dmg and this is why new sg is too weak.Its a fucking joke not even close to a decent weapon...you dont have fun with it, you die before killing ur enemy :D

lamer, get a skill.

you do know how to calculate 1+1 right!?

the shotgun is diff in duel and tdm? I played some tdm last night and the sg was pretty much pants.. presumed it was an overall thing

imo its fine in tdm aswell, easy finish off weapon, as it should be

maybe i just cant'a im then :D

yes its different, dont wanna sound like an ass but why dont you just check the changelog?
doesnt even take a minute...

Team Deathmatch Weapon Balancing:
Machineguns and Shotguns both now do 4 damage per bullet in Team Deathmatch to reduce their dominance.

cheers

I think MG should be 5 damage again and SG should be 90 damage in all modes {:=]

4.5 dmg , 5 was 2 strong imho :P

you can still easily frag a low nme (not 100-50 or 125 hp), in long distance it's still the 2nd best weapon, theres loads of ammo around etc...mg needed that change

for sg ... i need some time myself to adjust :P can't aim for shit now, but in official tdm games it looks good so far, you can really control the map and powerups now (look at the recent [R] vs xt match where xt pulled a nice control/quad dominance in the 2nd half of the game on dreadfulplace)

sg: You could really control with 100 damage tbh, it was the spread change that fixed it mostly IMO.
mg: i dunno, it just feels completely useless, even when you hit 50perc there's no reward really

why would you be rewarded for dying

sure, +back ftw

I dont think it is about "rewarding" any of the teams, the team in control have the weapons aswell : )
it is more about the pace of the match.
agree with diabz, both weaps are sort of useless now, it only makes the team out of control play more careful and slow.
people wanna see aggressive and fast matches...no one wants to spec or play a lowscoring game.

quake tdm should be a bit of chaos, dont wanna turn it into a completely boring, all tactical fps like [insert random slow fps game here].

more ammo or dmg for mg and would like to try sg with new spread and 100dmg.

spawn and rush primary (cause mg is powerful enough) aint fun either tho. It already did my head in tbh, I prefer mg beeing weak.

yeah i agree about that aswell. i dont want it to be q3cpm dm7 all over again, u gotta find a good balance and i think it could need a bit more rush/speed than it is now. adding slightly more damage to the weaker weapons may just be the way to go : -|

deathmatch > survivematch
$$$

and as we all know, deathmatch = ffa, you got your mode, don't make tdm another ffa

tdm
trololo

rush games are fucking terrible to watch

:'(

no

sg takes 4-5 shots to shot someone down...
and mg is way too much useless now, we'd need at least +20-25 ammo

Don't know anything about TDM but I want normal SG in duel as it used to be. Even in close fight use any weapon but not SG cause it seems doing nothing