-dm6 +dreadful place. dm20 is missing aswell, i dont see the point of leaving 1 newish and still fresh and 1 brand new map out for the sake of that piece of shit only some q3 veterans want to keep

seriously, dm6 on but no dm20?

dm20 isn't really worthy being called quakemap anyway.. I can aggree on the dm6 being removed thing but don't add the peace of shit dm20 is.

The only reason it was there is that without the other 'new' maps like 'realm of steelrats' and 'deep inside' and 'purgatory' there where only 2 TDM maps.

might as well give dreadful a try, if its bad then there will still be enough maps to avoid being forced to play it

dm6 and 20 can fuck right off to ca where they belong

you have my vote!

dreadful place plays really well, so much fun on that map :) we played it in practice and twice in the ESL one day cup.

dm6 belong to CA? you do know that the map has been around for like 10x the time CA has?

It may be old, but its a good TDM map nonetheless. It should stay. Leviathan or Purgatory may leave (the more I play it the more I hate the latter) and be replaced with Dreadful Place. dm20 must stay out of any TDM mappool.

DM6 is only really a good 2v2 tdm map. 4v4 is blergh

CA is at most one year younger than Q3, and RA has been around for more years still.

dm20 is not a ca map.

\o/

ctf 5o5, good decision admins!

Nice!

Looking good. Nice mappools, except for dm6 for TDM imo.

Are there teams looking for members? I don't care if it's CA/TDM or CTF. I'm familiar with all gametypes, allthough it's a very very long time ago I last time played them. (Q3 1999-2002)
I'm an average players with lack of experience so I guess i'm looking for a team in lower regions.
Also I don't really ooze in free time so it's not like i'm able to play every night...

CTF 5v5

why for fuck's sake?

to have amazing 0-0 matches

1. Get a team of aim-heavy players
2. Funfdef until overtime
3. ???
4. PROFIT

Oh and because we have more maps for 5v5 than 4v4. Oh wait..

lold. all your arguments just suits perfect for 4on4.

and thinking about the new maps coming up theres is no way to avoid 5o5. or do u prefer to play 4o4 on maps like stonekeep or siberia?! thats just bs <:

What upcoming maps? Do you know something noone else does?

You have massive skills if you can funfdef with 4 players \o/

im just guessing more 3w maps are coming. since they announced more maps for every gametype.

and yes smartass, there is no difference between 4 or 5 defs, as long as your whole team is deffing..

This is not true. If you all def in 4v4, you have a 1 on 2 att - def ratio. If you all def in 5v5 you have a 3 on 5 att - def ratio. Giving the attacking side more chance on succeeding in killing the defense and taking the flag. I think we shouldn't rule this advantage out at all, because it is quite significant.

also there are 5 people sharing the base health, armor and weapons instead of 4 so they will be less stacked.

in 4on4... wouldn't you go 3 att in that case? seems like a waste to have another guy camping mid/entrance/whatever.

Depends on the map and the team you are playing against. It always has to balance itself out in some way. People don't seem to understand it and think that if one team goes 3 att, the other can do it as well. I prefer a 1 basedef 1 mid/stack attack and 2 steady attacker strategy on all maps. But if the opposing team plays a strategy that doesn't balance our strategy out, we or they have to adjust to it.

So if one team goes 3 attack 1 basedef, Automatically if I play mid/stack attack I will have to support the basedef. Because in Quake Live CTF if you are able to enter enemy base with a teammate, you can easily dominate the defender based on positions and weaponry.

3 attack works against a very defensive team on the same level of skill or if you face a lower skilled team who you can just overrun.

tyskdef'ed!

frag parade ! frag festival !

or i really dont get it ...

boring boring boring

I'm pro 5vs5, but I don't think the current mappool is good for 5n5.

Oh well. First i'd have to find a team anyways:)

;/ we are screwed.

Looking forward to see how Hektik plays.

Leviathan needs to be replaced by dm20 or even Dreadful Place (haven't tried it yet though)!

Almost all of the good players/teams think that Leviathan is a really bad map.

ctf 5vs5? what it's wrong with you?
and courtyard? :/

arguing against courtyard but not troubled waters is just insanity imo

The new courtyard is actually playable map.

weird how everyone is whining about 5o5 when the latest esr poll clearly shows people prefer it.

most of the people prefer dm6 as a duel map, but that doesn't make it a good map

most of people are gay, but that doesn't make it good choice.

Wonder what the teamlist for CTF will be. I reckon around 20, with about 2 to 3 being able to blow out every other team. Then a very delayed final, because the teams in the final are made out of inactive 'pro's' who are too lazy to schedule a decent date. Might end in default, but with some rulebending a game could be played. Of course if the opposing team allows for another inactive pro to be added prior to the match.

But no worries the final will be streamed at around christmas, so we can enjoy it while sitting at the family table eating diner. However we might be denying the streamers of their christmas diner, so that won't work.

Oh well have a nice cup!

ooo look who's not even going to signup just to prove his point !

Last fall 2009 with 4v4 was so awesome wasn't it ?

80 clans signed up, 30 clans dropped during the season, and for the remaining clans that were in the playoffs mostly thanks to defaultwins, most of them didn't even play their games afterall.

1st league: all defaults, no playoffs played
2nd league: one semifinal defaulted / bronze final defaulted
3rd league: only the final was actually played
4th league: wow, all playoffs played (only 8 clans/12 didnt drop)
5th league: bronze final defaulted
6th league: final and bronze final defaulted
7th league: one semifinal defaulted / bronze final defaulted


Summarize: 80 clans signedup, 30 dropped because of more than 2 defaults during groupstage (WC used?), I dont even want to guess the number of default wins that did not result into clan-drops ^_^. Only half of the playoffs matches were actually played (14/28).

Conclusion: Let's all stick to 4v4, this is obviously the path to success in CB OC cups and this cup format proved to be suiting the CTF community...OR WAIT ?!

Ye 4v4 is totally to blame for that, also it's of course much easier to get 5 people to play at any time than 4 people...

i seriously hope you aren't blaming 4v4 for that because that would really just ruin your credibility and nullify most of the work you put into promoting 5v5

My point remains.

Me, aswell as a lot of ctf people ive known for years, mostly from coolpickup and spontanctf in the last years of q3, think 4v4 ctf is BORING the way it is and thus is one of the main reasons there's such a downfall.

I alo believe this massive fail of a cup that this one was mainly is because of this.

Eventhough you can arguee all you want safely that gathering 4 people instead of 5 is easier (which I certainly agree with, duh) I believe most people just didn't care aout playing this cup format because CTF is BORING in QUAKELIVE 4v4.

I don't see how it ruins anything to have that opinion noctis. I'm making the point that eventhough you can say the ctf community reduced constantly throughout the years from 2002 until now, we've never seen such a massive drop of attention and careness from the ctf community that we had after ONE season of 4v4!

jesus, if you really think 4v4 was the cause for the downfall of ctf cups on cb then i can't take anything you say serious anymore :E

either you stop taking me serious or you can start reading properly what I say.

(...)one of the main reasons(...)

No, I didn't say it was the reason.

EDIT:
Yes, I believe it is one of the MAIN reasons
Yes, this is my opinion and I don't mind if you guys dont share it.

Thankfully us Australians are sticking with 4v4 because we are not braindead l0l

24 signups for the cup with DP actually being the only decent one next to (MAYBE) MobacH. Looks like the old times have returned, just a bit faster now. Oh well grats on your cup win that doesn't mean shit. But ClanBase is done for anyway. No prestige, no real reason to play that anymore.

Like I care anymore with the current state of Quake Live CTF being so dire and close to death. Get 10 decent teams going again and that might give a sprinkle of hope and get DP defaulting and dying again.

Are you implying the latest 4V4 CTF leagues were any more filled with skilled clans ?

k1ck ? and ? ...

Get 10 decent teams going again and that might give a sprinkle of hope and get DP defaulting and dying again.

omgggg please get broken in and rape us then ! Maybe if you care enough you might even invent another couple of your so-called BRAND NEW STRATEGIES made in blade !

The latest weren't, but before that there were plenty of potential teams going around. They just never bothered to continue getting better and mostly defaulted everything (just look at the clanbase groups LLL had). We (broken) had to play every team in our group, because we had teams that wanted to play. In 2 clanbase cups, LLL was always placed in the group with not 1 active team (except wizards).

A few months ago you had: LLL (dead now?), broken, 2Fast, Infused, viRus, k1ck, DP (dies every cup), wizards, r2L, LKFF, EXEC, Asgard etc. You can make quite a good cup out of those teams. What do you have NOW? Just look at the signups for this season. Most teams indicated grades 7 or lower. Division 1 will be pointless if no other team signs before 12th of September.

Or don't you agree with this? Do you think broken would enjoy blowing all those teams out in 10 minute matches, just to play a final in late november or december against DP? It's not like I prioritize showing that we or you are better in 5v5 CTF, that would just be plain sad.

One team signed that is a mix of good players and then DP. Rest graded themselves low and would prefer a division 2 position, because they KNOW they will not have a chance against either two teams. THIS is what is wrong with the community, no one wants to improve and lose. Every one wants a chance at winning something. This is important for teams that aren't top. Problem is that teams that are playing to be the best of the best are denied this oppertunity, because THERE ARE NO BEST OF THE BEST. Same in Quake 3 CTF where you had oMg and DP only and do you really think a mix team cares to practice to win a final that doesn't mean shit? No, they don't.

So what's your point ? That CTF state is sad, there I will agree with you and this discussion is pointless as we both know this.

Now I think your previous posts implied that the cause of this CTF downfall was because of 5v5, and if thats the case then I have to totally disagree on this.

haters gonna hate

hi we own

"Like I care anymore with the current state of Quake Live CTF being so dire and close to death. Get 10 decent teams going again and that might give a sprinkle of hope and get DP defaulting and dying again."

That's why you reply to dem0n from the beguining? And you can't stop crying about 5on5 CTF to give your mind.
Register your team on this league, and play vs us instead of mimimi. You remember me the last CB q3 CTF when dp raped oMg, saying q3 was dead etc, even your teammates asked you to stfu on coms.. Whereas our team was not even playing more than 2 pracc in a month, we were not playing more q3 than you.
So play this cup and mimimi, or shut up. Thx Bye.

Wow did I just get 3 replies from 3 different DP members by 1 post? Amazing. So much bullshit going around. I was crying on comms that Quake 3 is dead on comms during a game? :p And they told me to stfu? Where did you get that information from, because I remember it to be another player who did that.

Give me one good reason to sign my whole team up for a cup that we will blow out and the final might be a bit closer, because you are the only players actually caring about winning? We only have five players and unlike just defaulting mid tournament like you guys, when we sign up, we actually want to complete it.

@ dem0n: Sure the other cups were a mess, I think only ESL was at some point decent. But only k1ck bothered to schedule stuff unlike LLL who were the new gunzoids and only Derfel bothered trying to arrange something. Rest of you were fucking inactive so that is actually an example of what made CTF go to shit.

It is just really funny that now clanbase gave in to the 5v5 format, whole DP is suddenly flaming me, because they actually stand a chance now in a format that is played by no good other team currently. I wouldn't want to play a cup where Japanese Castles and Stonekeeps are the only two playable maps. It just saves a lot of stress to not have a final with at least 1 to 3 unplayable maps. Get some decent maps in first, then we MIGHT bother to compete again and maybe some other teams to make it worth it.

And lol are you actually implying that some tactics didn't come from us? I am sorry, but broken was one of the few top teams that started again when Quake Live got active and we actually went on servers to develop strategies to bypass the basic ones every one played. You can play 2 def and 2 att in so many ways, doesn't mean it is all the same. People say inspiration is unique, but it all comes down to what you have experienced looking at others. That's what we do, we look at other teams and base a counter tactic on it and we don't steal it like most do it.

You guys can act all cool and all, but thank fuck the actual good CTF-ers understand what the main problem is in Quake Live CTF. Have your fun while it lasts and maybe competition will exist again in a couple of months so you can all crawl back in your little holes and real teams will start playing again.

tl;dr

There you go, sorry if I ignored your insightful one liners before.

np man, all good, just how i ignore your insightful wall-of-texts where you constantly try to make up new words for saying "5v5 is shit" with no real argumentation and a ton of bragging about how you invented and then reinvented ctf. :D

actually, are you sure that you didn't invent q3/ql as well?

Seriously are you that ignorant? I know you are mentally retarded based on you posting some random crap below every post on esreality, but you are really one of the worst trolls to post here.

Are you one of those self-important dicks that is all giggly behind his computer screen every time you reply with something totally irrelevent to the topic?

Really you are terrible, plain terrible.

cba to read all the shit you wrote but i guess it's some 5v5 sucks mimimi again, if u want, sum it down to 1 sentence/line and i'll give a fuck.

hey ctf-brain, any new inventions on p1 ? or p5 ?

we need some u know :(:/(::(:(/:/:

Sad.

" So much bullshit going around. I was crying on comms that Quake 3 is dead on comms during a game? :p And they told me to stfu? Where did you get that information from, because I remember it to be another player who did that."

You seem to have difficulties to interpret what im telling you. Or maybe your memory is really short.
Read these coms again, even your coms, what is vertex aka Stinobi asking you please?
http://clanbase.ggl.com/news_league.php?nid=317537&lid=8757

Look how is your overweening pride on these coms.

You talk about us without knowing us. DP droped a lot of league due to inactivity (lack of nice maps tbh) and lack of our full line up on ql (which we had on q3). Dem0n went in LLL on ql because we didn't really want start it at the beguining. Geneticz is not interested to play ql. Conan stoped gamings. Makie didn't really play CTF this year (he is since this summer). This year, visser stoped ql for a while (he is back now). Besides who joined us on ql was not even active, he was working (he is back in september). So yea it's really hard to get an active line up when you need your players.
Now DP is back in business with vertex as new recruit. So I really doubt we will drop.
Are you happy to know all this now?

"Give me one good reason to sign my whole team up"
I invit every good teams (fnatic, k1ck, broken, eo..) to register and play this league. We swear d&p will finish this one.
We didn't like to play 4on4 cause it sucks like you think 5on5 sucks.. But, we tried even with problems we met about activity & co..
Why not signing this and give a "last" try? (for you Blade :]) I red a Sol4r's com saying you would play this 5on5 CTF cup to see how it will happen. Just do it?
You seem to say and repeat your team was one of top3 (I won't deny it). So, you can only do it on 4on4?
I don't get why people dislike changes..

Yes, because I actually remember something in an opencup I played a year and a half back which had 2 games till oMg dropped. Are you really that proud of your wcp1 victory? I am very happy for you that you recruited vertex, I bet it will be really needed for this seasons cup that doesn't even have teams to fill up 1 group in 'division 1'.

Like any decent team you just mentioned will sign up. Face it, they don't give a shit, especially not about scrubs like you.

Anyway have fun lmfao.

Yeah you droped cause your ego didn't stand to loose vs FA on cp1 ahahah

sry blade, cant hear you from the sound of "server reserved for lower skilled players"
http://omploader.org/vNWV1bA

I don't know what is more sad. The fact that you are actually scouting me around and joining a server to randomly flame me to act cool or that you seriously made a reply on esreality about it to gain more fame from your DP butbuddies.

Haha just plain amazing. Keep going, you might strike a nerve, which is your ultimate goal doing to people by your random posts right?

haha, ur 50% bitter, 50% butthurt. i sense it. now go play some more pub 5v5's so you have something to whine about here.

btw the reason why i noticed you is cause my friend happened to be in the same game :) and he said he's kicking your ass, how could i pass up on that kind of opportunity.

Give me one good reason to sign my whole team up for a cup that we will blow out and the final might be a bit closer, because you are the only players actually caring about winning? We only have five players and unlike just defaulting mid tournament like you guys, when we sign up, we actually want to complete it.

@ dem0n: Sure the other cups were a mess, I think only ESL was at some point decent. But only k1ck bothered to schedule stuff unlike LLL who were the new gunzoids and only Derfel bothered trying to arrange something. Rest of you were fucking inactive so that is actually an example of what made CTF go to shit.

Ok, two paragraphs, two points I need to clarify with you.

Firstly, DP played all of his seasons in the q3 era and never defaulted anything. The reason for the DP team to never complete a league in QuakeLive era is probably because of its unstable lineup and the constant will from headz to reform DP. The thing is, with me having to play with LLL and genet1cz who just hates QL from the beginning, DP was never really DP. The main lineup of DP has always been around ynam, makie, genz and me, plus some play&go players like conan, visser, apex, etc.
I can assure you DP was not DP until today, when a few weeks back, LLL died as a team and we all split.

Secondly, second paragraph of yours, I think I have a simple explanation as to why we were 'the new gunzoids of CTF'. CTF is, pardon me, FUCKING boring nowadays and has nothing in common with CTF how we liked it for years. This feeling of difference, you could probably compare it to cs1.6 players nostalgic having to play CS:S. QL CTF, with the mappool we had before the big update in august, without the kill feature (or call it unefficient spawnsystem if you are one of those believers who think any spawn system algorithm can match the level of balance /kill gave to the game), and with 4v4, just was another gamemode.
Trust me, unlike YOU, I liked this gamemode, I played q3ctf EVERY SEASON, NONSTOP since 2003, in various leagues. I think I played every CTF opencups since 2003. So unlike you, I actually liked the game. Why do you think it has changed now ? I was playing pickups everyday with the 30 same players for years. Now I can't do it anymore because I have NO fun at all playing.
Now don't tell me that the downfall of CTF is my only fault. I promoted and played the games for years when it was dead. Where were you then ? And now you are almost pointing me.
Dude, seriously, point the fucking game, not a bunch of players who kept playing and thus kept the game alive as much as we could.
This is so ironic, seriously...


EDIT: sorry didnt read your whole post, might keep editing until I finally answer all of your ignorant speeches.

It is just really funny that now clanbase gave in to the 5v5 format, whole DP is suddenly flaming me, because they actually stand a chance now in a format that is played by no good other team currently. I wouldn't want to play a cup where Japanese Castles and Stonekeeps are the only two playable maps. It just saves a lot of stress to not have a final with at least 1 to 3 unplayable maps. Get some decent maps in first, then we MIGHT bother to compete again and maybe some other teams to make it worth it.

Seriously your level of ignorance on the subject is terrifying.
The reason DP came back to life is SIMPLY because I came back and am willing to play with my old mates and have a good season of CTF. We are all happy with this. There's no such 'we actually stand a chance now zomg lets play its 5v5'.
Mark my words blade, I'm still pretty sure you would have one hell of a time beating me and my mates, be it in a 4v4 or 5v5 scrim.

You guys can act all cool and all, but thank fuck the actual good CTF-ers understand what the main problem is in Quake Live CTF. Have your fun while it lasts and maybe competition will exist again in a couple of months so you can all crawl back in your little holes and real teams will start playing again.

When competition strikes again for real you won't be in the winners team anymore, I'm afraid.
Keep promoting quakelive CTF while playing hon or whatever other shit youve been playing, and please don't be shy to continue sharing your thoughts in the future.

Peace.

I am tired of replying to these kind of topics. Let's just keep it the way it is and you enjoy whatever you are going to do and I do what I do.

Just please, tell your DP buddies to fuck off and acting cool towards me on mIRC, esreality and even ingame in Quake Live. I prefer that more than the 4v4 or 5v5 discussion.

I am never tired of correcting people's thoughts.


Feel free to post more incorrect statements if you like, I will make it a pleasure to answer asap.

And I don't have any control over them, can't put them on a leash :). But I love em the way they are !

Looks like you were totally wrong once more.

You expected around 20 signups and the result is around 225% more than you had expected.

Isn't it cool that nEu is in aswell ?

Besides all that I am also expecting some lonesome cowboys like linkin or spartie to join random teams here and there and raise the cup level a little aswell.


Now that nEu joined though I can tell you DP is never going to cancel the cup, we'll play this cup, glad that there's still some activity going and hoping it doesnt fail once more like it did last year...

I was wrong about the 20 teams yes, rest might still be valid. Didn't know that nEu is the catalyst to form an active quake live CTF scene :O oh well I guess it might be Nace, he's just fucking magical.

Not sure, so many invalid statements until now.

Ah well, can't always be wrong I guess ;-).

Btw as far as I know, nEu aint the reasons we have 45 teams instead of your expected 20.

I'm only happy about nEu because that gives more interesting matches to play/watch and a more unexpectable end to the cup...

Still expecting to see some teams adding some players to their lineups during the cup like spartie and linkin and possibly draven and most of the 4v4 crybabies, which would as I said increase the level of some of the clans signed up.

Teams signed up does not equal teams competing as past experiences have told us ;-)

5o5 haters, stop complaining, you guys can play TDM finally again so dont pollute our gamemode anymore and let us enjoy real ctf, thanks.

GJ admins, I see you guys aren't a part of these tdmers-recently-converted-wanting-4o4.

YAY

The argument for 5v5 always boils down to "CTF" players feeling like their mode has been "taken over" by "TDM" players who just "TDM it" (read, any player who has too good combat skills resulting in everyone eternally spawning in base and making capping nigh on impossible).

Fuck off with your ridiculous claims that it's TDM players who have been invading the CTF scene, playing TDM-in-CTF and ruining it as there is nothing further from the truth.

agree with you

no you fuck off and quit replying to me while you're at it, you're not a good read.

I'll stop replying to you when you stop whining about "TDM players" ruining CTF and when you learn to read and write English correctly.

dude you're literally glued to me. Might celebrate my first use ever of the ignore feature on ESR.

Actually that's what I'm gonna do, cheers.

EDIT:

Ignore list:
iNkind (remove)

You ignore him because you have no other way to deal with what he says to you, quite fun to watch.

your "arguments" failed again

He is correct, ctf went downhill fast when it became popular and every tdm man and his dog started chasing points and showing off hit "leet aiming skills" by shooting attackers in the back

So CTF only works when nobody shoots?

Great argument.

ctf as a game works best when people as a team focus on the goal at hand which is capturing the flag.

Unfortunately most tdm based players do not consider this to be the primary goal in a ctf game.

Reality to eri, reality to eri. Eri, reality is calling and wants you to pay attention.

The ultimate goal of CTF is to capture the flag, however the primary goal is to prevent your flag from being stolen as without your own flag in base, you cannot achieve the ultimate goal.

So if CTF only works when people ignore the primary goal then that's just tough luck and is just another example of why CTF is a flawed (albeit fun) game.

"Unfortunately" most players do consider the ability to prevent the flag from being stolen as the primary goal in CTF and even you do recognise this fact in reality since I've never seen a team play four/five man attack as their strategy.

It's not TDM players who ruined CTF, it's competitive players wanting to win games who ruined CTF.

The primary /ultimate goal is to capture the flag one more time than the opposing team, not to prevent your own flag from being captured.


So i agree on that

A 9-8 win is just as good as a 1-0 win.
.
That is the beauty of the mod, a good flag runner can win the game without even killing once.

But as for you never seeying a top ctf team playing 4 or 5 attack, i suggest you watch some demos of the sheepheads/recap q3 ctf teams.

I can name you numerous official games in which we played 4 or 5 attack against top level opposition and won as well.

Stopping the other team capturing would surely make it easier for you to capture more than them, wouldn't it?

Obviously fragging excessively will make new respawners and make it impossible for caps, but ultimately its just defensive play.

Its a tactical choice i guess.

Ive played both styles, some of my teams adopted the don't let them cap mentality others used the we will just cap more mindset.

I do know which is more fun though =)

You're wrong.

The ultimate goal is to capture the flag one more time than the opposing team, yes.

In order to achieve the ultimate goal however there is a requirement that must be in met with no exceptions:

Your own flag must be in position

Therefore, the primary goal, that is the first goal that must be achieved, is to prevent your flag from being out of position.

Without achieving the primary goal, the ultimate goal cannot be completed.

This is different from TDM where there is only ever one goal, to score more frags or football where there is only one goal, to score more goals.

Name those numerous official games then with the following information, opponent, league, year, score, average team ping and the percentage of time you spent with no defence.

Apparently though, "CTF" players are too stupid to understand how their own game works and it took "TDM" players to come along and show them how it works.

So actually, it probably wouldn't surprise me at all if this did indeed happen. Just not against serious competition, you know, when the "TDMers" invaded and ruined it with teams like aAa making finals etc.

Google for it mate , i don't need to prove my own teams tactics :-)

And yes we did also play in the aAa and foe etc days, even with those tactics, all the way up to the eurocup semi finals.

Obviously we did also defend but we had no fixed defender role per se, whoever spawns in base defends if needed at that particular point in time.

This is not an easy tactic to execute well, hence why you probably did not see it more often.

In fact ive played top level ctf all the way from eurocup 3 era till the very end and we actually played more defensive back when the tdm invasion hadn't happened yet.

It saddens me to see people like you claim that offensive ctf is not a viable tactic and that tdmers showed us the light lol. If anything the tdm players owe clans like cn and iqs a lot because we showed them the light as far as how to play basic ctf.

Google for games that you said you could specifically call out on?
Er, ok.

You're actually blind apparently:

Fuck off with your ridiculous claims that it's TDM players who have been invading the CTF scene, playing TDM-in-CTF and ruining it as there is nothing further from the truth.

From my first post.

By more dfeensive i mean 2 def as opposed to one, nice troll attempt though.

Tdm ers made the mod more defensive in general theres no denying that. We just always went against that trend in the teams i played with.

Yes i can name u but weve beaten every clan playing 4/5 attack on occasion, so it would be pointless.

Ask any old school ctf er , they will confirm our tactics and my story.

"Troll attempt"?

TDMers didn't make anything more defensive, the natural competitive instinct of players made CTF more defensive.

Sorry, but claiming, you can name me games, then just saying "google it lol, I don't need to backup my claims, we bear everyone, so it would be pointless" is a pathetic cop out.

It's not that I don't doubt that you did this, it is I doubt the effectiveness of this strategy, since many circumstances could have led to them being successful which would not exist now or under ideal conditions.

So you would describe TDM style CTF as 2Def?
That's funny, that doesn't seem to have anything in common with TDM at all.

There are no ideal conditions in a game like quake.

So that is a moot point. But no we did not have a ping advantage (rather the opposite) and no they did not play with a backup team or whatever.

And i also never claimed it is the ideal tactic, in fact it has a high risk of ruin , but when performed correctly it is just as effective as any aim or def based strategy. Just takes a lot of dedication.

Also tdm style has little to do with the amount of fixed defence, it has more to do with the style of play overall. But yes i would say 95 % "tdm ctf tacs " are based on 2 full time defenders.

I wasn't asking for you to spew out some unspecific garbage, I was asking you to back up your claim and apparently you are unwilling to do so.

The risk-reward factor of said tactic isn't effective or efficient enough to work against an equally dedicated and skilled team playing the more defensive tactics (hence why you didn't win the EC).

I guess you haven't worked out what I'm on about yet. There is no "TDM" style of CTF no matter how much you and your buddies wish there to be one, what you are complaining about is the most efficient and effective method of play for CTF.

It's like a football team playing with one defender and then complaining that "Rugby" teams are ruining football when they defend with all men behind the ball when the "Rugby" team goes up the other end and scores.

Also tdm style has little to do with the amount of fixed defence, it has more to do with the style of play overall. But yes i would say 95 % "tdm ctf tacs " are based on 2 full time defenders.

So yes, back to the start, CTF is only a good game when people don't shoot, since the style of play that you refer to as TDM involves causing heavy damage to the opposition and is the most effective and efficient style of play.

Yet again no its not, provide me some statistical evidence for what you consider "your most efficient ctf style".

Because in that comment you imply that every succesfull ctf clan over the past few years has played the exact same way down to a tee. Show me the proof.

You know you reallt try so very hard to appear intellectual and superior to the average esr user but if i could be arsed to use the same style against you you would be totally lost in your own words.

It's kinda laughable really

Yeah, sure, I'm using some "style" and you could make me lost in my own words...

Do it then.

Yes, all the top QL CTF teams play in this manner and the teams winning when Q3 CTF was at its most competitive also played in this manner.

The goal of CTF is not to capture the flag, but to capture the flag more often than your opponent.

Most players, CTFers included, at one point discovered that one of the optimal ways to reach this goal is to shoot at other players, once they reached a level of aim which made locking down the base possible.

That's the entire problem.

The tdmers made it obvious this locking down could be done and hence arguably ruined ctf.

As you say yourself it's "one of the ways". The issue is they are tdmers at heart and hence do not have the skills needed to play ctf in one of the other viable ways. Therefore making the mod boring tdm chase and def only.

You call them TDM players, but really, you're just throwing accusations around at a community that didn't ruin anything.

Competitive players "ruined" CTF.

If the other "viable" ways are so "viable" how would TDM teams who don't have the ability to play CTF properly, ruin CTF?

The problem is, it becomes the only viable strategy when two teams of equal (high) skill play against each other.

Again it is not and has never been the only viable strategy in q3ctf even between top teams, i wont speak for ql ctf since ive never played it.

It still amuzes me how you are trying to argue this point with me, ive played far more top level ctf than any of you.

Oh, the good old, "I've played more than you" non-argument that dem0n and co like to trot out whenever somebody calls them out on something.

If it isn't the only viable strategy, what's the problem?
Oh, right, yeah, the other "viable" strategies are "too hard" for most teams.

Youre well known on esr as the guy who considers himself to be always correct in every discussion on every subject known to mankind, that's hardly better now is it :P

But regarding that demon comment, yes it is sometimes wise to just believe people who have far more experience in certain fields,
I do not agree with demon a lot but he's right about that.

That is if u want to appear wise rather than get laughed at while trying to be a constant smart-ass about everything.

I may be "well known" as being that, but I do not claim I am always correct or that I know everything about every subject.

So yeah, I am better than that.

It is never wise to "just believe people who have far more experience in certain fields", ever. This is beyond stupid and the kind of thinking that results in people blowing themselves up.

It is never wise to "just believe people who have far more experience in certain fields", ever. This is beyond stupid and the kind of thinking that results in people blowing themselves up.

Well, the whole school system is kinda based on that.
I would rather trust an experienced bomb defuser if i were in a situation where i might get blown up. But i guess you were talking about religious fanatics. I think they do that out of desperation (no other way to achieve their goal) rather than belief.

No the school system isn't based on just accepting what you are told (well, I guess it might be where you live). A teachers job is to show you how and why things are so that you can work things out, this requires more than just saying "this is gravity, accept it".

Aren't you suppose to verify your knowledge by stating the exact things you were told?
How else do they let you pass to the next grade in your country then?
I'm very interesting to know... might want to start petitions in my country to make the education better.

They tell you how and why things are, which isn't the same thing as just telling you X is Y and then you regurgitating it.

Even so, you're forced to agree with them if you want to pass the grade.

t is never wise to "just believe people who have far more experience in certain fields", ever.

No, you aren't forced to agree with them at all, so long as you are correct and can prove it.

You mean when debating a teacher or when taking a written test?
Any examples of this?

Oh and i hope you're not refering to higher education like masters or doctors degree.. you're suppose to at that level.

I'm referring to a school test.

I've corrected and argued with teachers a few times in my school career. Sometimes it did end up with the teacher hating me and giving my bad grades, but most of the time they were cool about it.


Examples:

Using a different way to reach a solution in a math test.
Arguing a different view point in politics, history.
Giving a different interpretation of a text / metaphor in language classes (that's often a tough one and got me a few Ds over the years :P)


In the end, it's a bit more difficult to do than giving the answers a teacher expect and you have to make sure you have more arguments than for the expected answer to make a good case.
But it did make school a bit more interesting than just repeating what you are told :D

I'll use my chess example like i have throughout this thread, do you seriously believe you can improve kasparovs reply to say the catalan defence?

If so while i applaud you for your belief in yourself i also must scorn you for your blind arrogance and ignorance.

Yes it does pay to listen to people who do really know better than you at certain times.
Any great mind of the past say 20 or so centuries started of by doing that, apparenrly you think you are the exception.

I'll use my chess example like i have throughout this thread, do you seriously believe you can improve kasparovs reply to say the catalan defence?

If so while i applaud you for your belief in yourself i also must scorn you for your blind arrogance and ignorance.

No, I don't believe I can improve Kasparov's reply to the Catalan defence. What a ridiculous strawman argument that is.

Once again you've got sidetracked by your own stupidity.

What I am saying:
Person A: "I am more experienced than you, X equals Y"
Person B: "Why should I believe you, show me how X equal Y?"
Person A: "Because... A, B and C"
Person B: "Ah, I understand how A, B and C work together causing X to equal Y and can repeat and explain this"

What Wise-Eri is saying:
Person A: "I am more experienced than you, X equals Y"
Eri: "OK"
Eri: "Hey Person C, X equals Y"
Person C: "Why does X equal Y Eri?"
Eri: "Because Person A said so and he is more experienced than me"

Not a single great mind of the past 20 or so centuries started off by taking for granted what people who "know" (LAFF) better told them.

With the exception or super extreme circumstances where rapid decisions must be made and one is totally out of their depth (like, having to defuse a bomb) there is no reason to just listen to those who are more experienced if they do not present their argument properly.

Again it is not and has never been the only viable strategy in q3ctf even between top teams

uhm, really? you and me (should) both remember the time when gos won their first eurocup and what happened afterwards.
i still have nightmares of those nordic teams plaing 2x mid, like nace and irb making me want to hurt someone sooo bad... or kruse + x just making me want to scream at anyone near me :d

the only viable strategy against this was (imo) a double pu run with 4 atts, this or desperately trying to out-aim the railnerds.

who did you play with during those times, sheepheads? my memory fails me.

Sure it was pretty damn gay to play against and probably the best overall tactic but there were viable alternatives still.

As FOE (amongst other clans) showed.

The main reason it was so effective was not the 4 - 5 def per se imo but the psychological effect it had on the opposing team

It mainly just frustrated the hell out of opponents causing them to start playing a sloppy unstructered game , couple that with constant ninjascript powered "perfect" flagruns and you got a recipe for disaster.

Kinda similar to the "tilt" phenomenom in poker.

I played for recap back then afaik,

true, but i also think that is one of the main reasons for the influx of tdm players. even the oldschool ctf teams realized they needed atleast one guy taking the pressure off their atts at mid and not go crazy after a map or two.

i used to be that guy for suq, a clanwar meant realizing that i had to stay coolheaded for a 1+ hour version of (quake) reflex. still i probably enjoyed that part of my quake 'career' more than any other.

tbh i don't think that's a bad thing per se, if a gametype manages to create such different roles without the need for classes it's a plus in my book.


edit: hah, didn't want to bring ninja up. in a way the script kind of negated the funfdef tactics!? it was pretty retarded in any other way, but i always wondered what would have happened if we kept allowing it.

Can't say i have fond memories of the influx of tdm players. It made the games a lot slower.

Ninjascript could be seen as a counter to that but well , when the main skill as a flagrunner is pressing 1 button a few times something is very wrong.

Where do you draw the line with those kinda scripts anyway, if ninja is allowed one could certainly make a case for a script that allows the user to strafejump in a perfect fashion as well. (like the ones that are used for cheating in defrag). Combine all those tools and in the end the game just becomes a mockery of itself.
Since theoretically it would then be possible to make a bind that gets you from 1 flag to the other in a fully automated fashion.

Sheepheads certainly had the most fun playstyle ive ever seen in top level ctf, too bad other clans did not follow the example :(

you don't have fond memories of me :*

just kidding, i agree on the rest.

don't hate the player, hate the game..........................

No, a CTF team with good aim that uses TDM style until they can either get lucky with a grab or gain some sort of advantage (better stacks, powerup) and then use a coordinated push to get the flag, is the strategy that works these days.

The average qzctf8 is the perfect example. Lock down your base for 2 minutes, attempt to get the advantage by getting a stacked quad, attack en masse. If it fails, lock down base for 2 minutes, attempt to get quad again.

The reason why that strategy is not always very apparent, is:
a) some teams are unable to do coordinate between defense and offense well enough (too little CTF skills)
b) some teams have too little fragpower and are steamrolled by the opposing team (too little TDM skills)

I'm talking about q3ctf really, i dont know ql ctf since ive never played it.

But to say tdm style play is the only viable top level q3 ctf tactic is just false

Would you describe what you consider TDM style CTF so we all know what you are referring to specifically?

i dont know ql ctf since ive never played it.

well in that case you do not have enough experience and your opinion is wrong. ;P

I always find it extremely funny that some players dare to say that 4v4 CTF is just about TDM, whereas 5v5 CTF at top level was most of the time about locking the map with defs and midds, and all-in attacks on powerups...

Look at the scores during the QCON CTF tournament ? There has never been high level matches with so many captures during the last years of 5v5.

With this simple observation, we can conclude that the "4v4 is all frags" whine is just bullshit.

CTF became all frags and changed when the average aim increased. It has nothing to do with 5v5 or 4v4. Like 1on1 changed since fatality's time as the aim increased. Nobody is going to say "look at fatality's strat on ztn, it's super effective !!" whereas we know it's bullshit to talk about strats of an other era, when the average skill was obviously not the same.

So when I see eri saying "yeah we proved that all off was viable"... yeah, maybe at that time ? Not anymore. At least not with 5v5.

Oh, last funny thing, the Belgium national team, (and oMg) were the first to use very defensive strats and counter-attacks with powerups only, to cap. They won a few nationcups and eurocups like that. And now, demon comes and tell us that all-frags ctf sucks ? You had a big part in ruining this game, and proving to the world that 5v5 ctf is shit. So don't complain now.

I dont want to repeat myself over and over again, but why do you all have to put high scoring games on a throne ?

I never thought that games that ended 6-4 were obviously better than games ending 2-1, 2-0 or 1-0... But for some reason some people do. Quit thinking a game with 15 random caps is obviously better than a close game with football like scores.

I'm not for a CTF format where there is so many random caps that the scores look like it's basket ball...

why do many caps automatically have to be random?

You might wanna check on the other thread what I had to say about it, I'm too lazy to go and repeat myself on every other thread there is.

I will also check when I'm back home my IRC logs where I describe more calmly why I think 4v4 is much more random and how it makes for high scoring games.

I also question this generalized opinion that high scoring games with 10 caps per map are 'better' than low scoring games where a cap actually is a thrilling and workful event during a game rather than something as common as a frag would be.

so one thrilling moment that takes maybe 20 seconds in a 20 minute game is a good ratio?:E

No. Actually plenty of thrilling moments. But plenty of mid-returns. Plenty of little team mistakes or brilliant team covering moments that made these flagruns turn into flagcaps.

The reason a cap occured much less often is because it was much harder to work out a cap. You had to give in all you had to pass the mid, to communicate with your teamates.

How terrible has it become now ?

- less people on the map (4v4)
- no /kill to balance the lucky 'in-front-of-efc-spawns'


Let's analyze what happens now, and what more precisely explains the high scoring games we have nowadays. What I call 'random':

What tactic is the dominant one nowadays with top ctf teams ?
Let's take ctf7. THE 4v4 map. THE reason leagues chose the 4v4 format. You basically have one flagdef, one home ra, one enemy ra, one freefly attacker. (Try and do other wise and you'll most likely lose the match, everyone will tell you that). The point of this strategy isn't really to get a capture happen at any time of the game, but most likely at several moments, every couple minutes approximately. The time the home RA has got himself a decent stack with a medkit and possibly the PU.
The point of the enemy ra player isn't really to get an attack in, unless he gets lucky or unless the other team doesnt use the proper modern ctf7 tactic. The point of this guy is to weaken the enemy home ra player so he can't get this stack that is so dangerous for your team. There's really usually only one attacker (the freefly). If the defenders aren't too bad, one guy at a time won't be much of an issue now, would it ?
So what happens then ? Well, the guy who's got himself a stack will start a gamble: "Im going to attack the enemy base, if we're lucky, this will give us a cap and we can do that again in 2 minutes."

Why do I say 'gamble' and 'lucky' (random) ? Because most likely, the outcome of this attack would mainly depend on the random spawn system (c) ID software and on various more minor bad decisions taken by the flag carrier (failed RJ, wrong route, shit aim). Since there's only 4 people in a team, one cap can be decided randomly: are you going to spawn luckily in front of the EFC, or are you going to spawn behind, become useless and resign yourself to stack up again and prepare for the next events in another couple of minutes ? Same goes for the covering team, will they spawn in their base after getting killed while attacking the base or will they spawn in a place (mid/shaft?) where they can help their FC ?

I know you're going to say this is very empiric or whatever. But if you just think about it, or if you have ever played ctf7 on 4v4, you will most likely have lived this course of events, more or less, probably every time. This obviously also applies on ctf2. If you have 5 people instead of 4, theres more chance you will have chances to atleast recover the enemy flag or cover your FC if in the other team. CTF8 is also same: stack up, get the quad. 50% of time you will make a cap happen based on random events during your adventure in the enemy base and the return to your base. You just have to kill everyone and run. Your main hope at this moment is that you got lucky on the spawns of your teamates and your enemies.

In 5v5 you KNOW that 90% of the time, there's going to be something in front of you that will try to kill you. You NEED escort, you need teamwork, you need to think more on how and when to cross the mid. You can't just run blindlessly alone and think you can make a difference alone.

I'm sorry for this long post but this is how I lived 5v5 and how I lived 4v4. I had plenty of games and leagues and stuff to forge an opinion and if you know me you know that I'm not some kind of blind nostalgic, hating change whenever it occurs. I've always been for new maps, for new mods, for new weapon balance, for new netcode, whatever... But if it WORKS.

My point again isn't that 4v4 is 'less skilled' or whatever. I just want people to explain to me why they find it more fun, why they think high scoring games are ALWAYS better, why also they bring the 2002/nostalgic argument as if all of the pro-5v5 people were all a bunch of backwards thinking nerds.... Just explain that to me, and also do not hesitate to explain to me why you think my description of a typical 4v4 game above is wrong...

tl;dr

But in a few words : all mid and one cap per map is boring.

And you can say all the bullshit you want, in the end, 5v5 comes down to this.

You want between 2-4 caps per map on average which gives a nice balance between saturation and dullness.

Didn't you know?

If it's 1-0 that means the cap must have been super skilled and the reason why was nothing to do with a random mistake by the opponent.

But if it's 4-2 that means the caps must have been the result of lots of random things happening and the winning team only won because 3 of their caps were random.

Yeah it's easy to see that you're the football loving type. But even football lovers know it's a very random sport.

Are you trying to tell me that a game with one or two caps per map, which can be the sum of random events/tiny mistakes/lucky spawns, is less random than a game with 6 caps for example ?

Yeah, that's probably the same reason football is less random than rugby. Except it isn't.

I stopped reading your answers when I realized you took the comparison I made between sports so seriously.

i.e. when you noticed the example helps him more than it helps you?

OLD

I think you mistyped "YES" there.

FAST

and the part about Belgium, we just were better than you were and that's about it. As far as I know we scored 5 times on 3 maps versus Sweden and there were a bunch of caps during our game vs France afaik.

EDIT: and I remember 100% how oMg played. The reason they won so many euro and opencups isn't really because they played alldef.
The reason they won is because they had a powerful team of very good ctf players, period. I also remember that they used to have 4 constant attackers on cp1 for example so whatever you tried to imply is really debattable...

I didn't say you weren't better, did I ? But Belgium team was better thanks to this new very defensive approach (during your early nationcups wins at least). Are you trying to say that 5 caps in 3 maps is a lot ? You kinda proves my point. And at first, oMg were clearly using the same strats. Then after a few cups, it's true that you played more offensive again, but it was when nobody was training half as much as you were at that time (not a reproach), so whatever you would do, you were winning easily anyway.

we had a good defense and you can't blame 5v5 for having a good defense. You had a better offense ? fine, our defense was better than your offense then.

Seriously you need to relax and use the device called a "BRAIN" before answering. I don't even see how your post is related to mine.

I didn't talk about our offense or whatever, I said you used way more defensive strats than Sweden or France.

Is this so hard to understand ?

real ctf? your "real ctf" needs one more player to do the job because you like to play all defense and you can't do it with 4.

PS: welcome to Quake Live, stop living in 2003.

Who decided the TDM map list?

- Dreadful Place is the most fun of the 3 brand new maps, it should be in.
- If you drop any map it should be Campgrounds.
- Hidden Fortress is a good map and should remain in for this season.

I would include EVERY playable TDM map this season. You can have some system of each team eliminates 2 maps first or something but still having every map as an option makes it much more fun.

TDM

- Dreadful Place
- Hidden Fortress
- Campgrounds
- Grim Dungeons
- Deep Inside
- Realm of Steel Rats
- Purgatory
- Leviathan
- Intervention
- Retribution

That is 10 maps and might be quite a lot but most are well known and there are really only 3 maps to learn. If you drop any then make it the older Q3 maps like Campgrounds, Retribution and Realm of Steel Rats. But I would rather have the choice of loads of maps then a few admin favourites.

Or have totally new maps only pool so:

- Dreadful Place
- Hidden Fortress
- Purgatory
- Leviathan

I would like to see some night cups that are just using 1 map each to give these new maps a real play test.

Anyway add Dreadful Place and Hidden Fortress and even Retribution with its changed item layout over Campgrounds.

Only 3 new maps to learn? I guess you forget not everyone has 10 years of Q3 tdm experience. For us there's 6 new maps that people really havent played before, except purri.

IMO all 3 brand new maps, aswell as 3 old-new maps in the patch should be included, this leaves room for 1 map from the old maplist if we want to have a 7 map pool. Even if Leviathan or whatever end up being shit, it's better to play new shit instead of old shit that's been confirmed to be shit a thousand times over. Atleast its a different shade of brown.

But adding dm14 and leaving out dm20 (personally I dont mind) feels stupid, since dm20 is still fresh and homemap to several clans. I'd like to see them both but that leaves us with a 8 map pool. DM6 and DM7 are just bad bad bad and old aswell.

- Dreadful Place
- Purgatory
- Leviathan
- Deep Inside
- Intervention
- Realm of Steel Rats
- 1 old map, but definately not dm6 or 7.

edit: I wouldnt be against the 4 map pool consisting only of new maps, but I'm sure almost everyone else would be :| And it leaves us with the same problem as before, small map pool. It just gets boring, especially for spectators if its always the same maps. My proposed map pool imo is a good middle ground with plenty of new maps and some older ones

Yes ok I agree with your map pool with the last choice being Hidden Fortress.

We can bring back older maps in future seasons and rotate it.

- Dreadful Place
- Purgatory
- Leviathan
- Deep Inside
- Intervention
- Realm of Steel Rats
- Hidden Fortress

Only problem I see with this map list is a lack of a real forced tactical map like Grim Dungeons, but I would rather as many new maps as possible. Although Realm of Steel Rats (cpm4) is one of the oldest Q3 maps it changed a lot and is an awful map since the end of shit aim OSP days (so kinda new..). Leviathan is far too simplistic for interesting exchanges. So I would expect those two to be replaced first in future, maybe with the return of Grim Dungeons (dm14) and...

are u serious about leviathan ? :/ that map failed

I don't think its a particularly good map and will be dropped for sure in future, but it will show a few good games if it is used for a season. I don't think any of the new maps are classics and have item layouts that encourage ffa style gameplay.

Imo you are wrong about the tactics.

I did not mention tactics.

I guess he meant that you saying ffa (lack of tactics) is false

God, give it a chance for fucks sake.

doesn't deserve it

dm20 is worse than dm6...teleporters are the bane of positional play and if you don't have positions in TDM you get an aim-heavy FFA fragfest with quad-phase. Which is exactly what dm20 promotes. Its bad bad bad bad bad bad.

No it is not and you should learn how to position based on the teles

So tele camping is good gameplay for you then. KK, but that was not what I meant with positions.

And tele camping is not what he meant.

Oh I dont care if dm20 gets removed, even if we're quite strong on it. But a lot of other people really want to have the map in the pool.

So why cups always got a mappool? Why don't add all playable maps, so everybody is happy to play his favorite.

If there's too many maps its hard to practise all of them, that's one of the reasons. And if there's no changes in the pool you always end up playing the same maps. And I'm no authority on mappools or anything, I'm no admin etc so dont ask me :D just posting my opinions and what I think would be the best for the future

So u both complain about the old maps being new to some players like yourselves yet at the same time u use the argument that for example dm20 is "still fresh".

In other words what u really want are maps that are new to everyone just so u wont have a small disadvantage, not because they are actually any good.

It's hardly our fault that you guys didn't play q3. Stop trying to blame us for it

rofl fuck off, dm7 and dm20 were strong maps for us, aswell as dm14. its not about personal/clan advantage, THE MAPS ARE DULL. They are not new to anyone, they are old, thats the whole point. As you can see I suggested all the old-new maps should be included as they offer somewhat of a change to the same old shit we've played for almost 2 years now.

Both? I played q3 tdm... You on the other hand don't play QL. I have always liked developing tactics for maps, something which you can't really do on a decade old map like dm6.

Who says i do not play ql?

Just because i'm not involved in top level play at the moment does not mean i do not know the game

And same answer kinda as i gave frs. Blaming a map for personal inability to innovate is just a crutch for your own shortcomings.

To use the same analogy, chess has been inovating for thousands of years on the same map, so has football etc etc.

You can argue all you want but i will bet everything i own on the fact that not one team has so far come up with a game theory optimal way to play dm6, not even the old ic team.

Those games aren't comparable to Quake TDM in any way and it's not the same analogy at all.

So what if nobody has come up with a perfectly optimal way to play dm6, it's played out. Since everyone in quake constantly sucks SC's dick, do you think SC would still be so big if they played the same maps they did a decade ago?

Yes i do to be honest.

Although personally i find sc boring as fuck to watch so i don't really understand why it is so popular .

This is Quake, and map lists have always adapted. This is not Chess.

I agree with perhaps the optimal strategy has not been found for any map. But this is not a professional pursuit where players full time job is to learn every inch of a map and work with coaches on adaptive strategy. The strategy we have now will not change much more then it has already and will not drastically evolve the way the map works.

It is not about shortcomings or lack of adaptation on my part. The UK notoriously weak on dm6, adapted a strategy to beat the Netherlands (ESL ENC finalists) on it, while also being one of the strongest teams on the brand new map dm20 because we were first to develop effective strategy and tactics.

You could counter the argument that initial inventive tactics are the skill most players are lacking and thus the resilience to having to adapt to new environments. Most teams just learn strategy and tactics from other teams and players before them. This is something we saw so clearly with dm20. It is not all about the amount you play a map but having an understanding of what to do. Some think about this, while others learn it by just repeatedly playing it over and over.

Perhaps that's where our difference in opinion comes from.

I seem to look at quake as more of a serious competitive platform. Hence the "need" for fixed standards and all.

I would never remove a map because it's "old" , i would simply view that as a challenge for teams to come up with something new and revolutionary. Which i'm sure can still be done even on dm6 even today.

New maps while perhaps fun to play just do not have that aspect of true innovation and pushing the envelope.

I would be happy with brand new maps being released at an event and teams having to learn it on the spot. Creativity is more interesting to me then refinement, in terms of play and spectating. Some maps like dm6 are so limited there is no creativity left just very small refinements, which makes them boring to play and less interesting to stream.

"For us there's 6 new maps that people really havent played before, except purri."

How can they all be dull when u still havent rly played them before according to your own words?

6 maps out of 10 will always include at least 2 old ones like for example dm6 dm7 or dm14. That is a matthematical certainty since there are only 4 completely new maps.

So yes you do contradict yourself completely.

That is effectively the problem with the quake community and changes; everyone speaks from their personal viewpoint first and the community view second

Speaking as individuals sure most of the current players will like the new map thing and all but for the growth of the game that really is not the way to go at this point in ql's development.

What we need to get more new blood in the game is a fixed ruleset and a fixed gamestate.

After all noone complains about chess being stale and confined to just 1 map do they?

The maps referred as old are the ones that have been in the map pool for ~2 years now, dm6, dm7, dm14 and more recently dm20. The 6 new maps to us (and I want all 6 in the map pool) are osp5, osp6, cpm4, purgatory, leviathan and dreadful place. nice trolling with the chess thing tho

osp5 and 6 have been played for years and years by the oldschool tdm crowd as well, so why not remove them then ?

After all they could be considered stale as well by now for most people.

The chess thing is not a troll, if you gave it any more thought u'd realise the point behind it.

Innovations are good for a platform which has a huge loyal userbase as is, not for one that is still in development. After all if you are a newbie at game x why would u spend your time perfecting your skillset when it could be rendered obselete at any given time by the powers that be (eg the old jaded playerbase longing for change in this case).

You can expect to alienate a certain percentage of players that way, and ql simply cannot afoord that in its current state.

osp5 and 6 have been played for years and years by the oldschool tdm crowd as well, so why not remove them then?

Because they haven't been played in QLTDM for the past two years?

The chess thing is not a troll, if you gave it any more thought u'd realise the point behind it.

Sadly the point is stupid and doesn't make any sense. If we were talking about changing the checkers board then sure, you've got a point.

Innovations are good for a platform which has a huge loyal userbase as is, not for one that is still in development.

Because that's a proven strategy for success with Quake, right?

Checkers is a game that can be and has been mathematically solved so i really dont see how that would contribute to this discussion. Since my entire argument is that quake tdm maps cannot be solved in that way, theres always a better strategy or counterstrategy

Chess is also a game that can be mathematically solved since, like checkers, there is a finite possible amount of moves.

Chess is more complicated than checkers, but the two games are not comparable to Quake in any way.

It can be in theory yes, but not at present with current technologic limitations.

Given that there are more game states than atoms in the universe.

I'm sure even quake is solvable,just hasn't happened yet

What we need to get more new blood in the game is a fixed ruleset and a fixed gamestate.

Because that worked so well for Quake so far, right?

I would argue that it works better than the other alternative which is constant change.

Quake inherently has a steep learning curve, no way around that unfortunately, but constantly introducing new maps or gameplay tweaks will only make it harder/more discouraging still for new players

I would argue that it works better than the other alternative which is constant change.

For ten years in Q3 and two years in QL we have played dm6, dm7 and dm14. Hardly "constant" change, more like the opposite in fact.

Quake does inherently have a steep learning curve, a large proportion of that is map knowledge since the rest is more reflex based than anything else.

Ergo having new maps allows players with less experience to improve faster as they are able to compete with people on their own skill level (best way to improve) rather than having to play against worse players because their experience isn't enough to compete with their equals.

I can't remember a single new player ever complaining about new maps, only old, inactive players.

I'm all for new maps personally.

I just do not believe that it helps new players.

What you are saying may be true in theory, however in practice it only increases the stress on the new playerrs since they now need to learn more and more maps in order to even be slightly competitive.

Whereas if we had a fixed mapset they would at least see a light at the end of the tunnel.

Then again it might be a non argument, since i guess it all boils down to wether the game itself is good enough to keep them interested for that long regardless of the maps.

It's not just true in theory, whenever a new game pops up there are always "new" players who step up and are suddenly just as good as the best of the previous game(s) even if in the previous they were considered mediocre at best.

If the map pool is all new, what "more and more maps" are they having to learn? They could just forget trying to catch up on the old maps and they get to start on an equal footing as everyone else on the new maps (so skill, commitment and innovation will shine through).

The problem comes when admins cling on to old maps (hi, CB dm6 in map list) or give in to community pressure to add in old maps (hi, CB post-ec5). This only ever helps to stagnate the game and new players are always less likely to join in.

They will never ever start on equal footing though, they will always have a disadvantage aim wise and movement wise to begin with.

Bar the occasional prodigy.

Hence i'm all for letting them perfect that aspect of the game first on a number of fixed maps rather than asking them to both learn new maps every month or so and at the same time hone the other basic skills + established maps.

Althoug granted "new maps" in ql probably means one or 2 a year rather than 3 - 4 every month, so maybe i'm being too paranoid about the "new " thing

They will only have a disadvantage against people who are more skilled than them, yes.

But they can compete against a player who is at a similar skill level to them. In the other situation when they come against a player who is as skilled, but has years worth of competitive experience on a map, they cannot compete.

The fastest way to improve is to play against people who are the same skill level, or ever so slightly higher, than yourself.

Thus being behind in experience so much means they have to play people who simply don't have the skill to compete with them regardless of map knowledge and they don't learn or improve anything.

When I first picked up Q3 in 2004 my team were way more skilled than the teams we ended up against, but our "equals" had been playing the maps for so long and we had never played a TDM game before. The result was, we were too good for one set of players but nowhere near knowledgable enough to compete with players with a similar skill.

Improvement took about a thousand times longer, with the exception of one map, ospdm15rc3, where we often destroyed other teams.

A month wouldn't be enough to get anything out of a map, one year would be enough for some maps, two for most and I guess occasionally you'll get one which last even longer.

The fastest way to improve is to play against people who are the same skill level, or ever so slightly higher, than yourself.
Thus being behind in experience so much means they have to play people who simply don't have the skill to compete with them regardless of map knowledge and they don't learn or improve anything.

a similar phenonem also exists in chess:
I used to play blitzchess (5 minutes each player) often, but my approach to chess is different than most of the other players, I am more of a calculator and try to play creative energetic chess, most blitz players instead play mostly pattern based chess and don't care going into dull and completely equal positions.
And so it often happens that I have completely winning positions, and I am in 70 % of my games totally better than my opponents, but I still lose on time. Of course some people state "time is an element" of the game, but the truth is these people can't and will never be able to play energetic creative chess like me, because they just can't do it, you also need a lot of imagination for this, most of these player can't think of more than 2 moves ahead, and they can't see any moves that they have not previously learned in books, that is also why I have quit playing blitzchess, because I play mostly against players who are 300 points and more under my chess understanding, so playing against them doesn't help me improve my chess understanding, although they might be at my level in blitzchess, it even worsens my chess understanding to be exposed to their play crap play ...
now I do only play 15 minute chess, there the timefactor is not that decisive ...

gotta love those pseudo"geniuses" like you.

what do you know ... :-)
I only stated that I ended playing blitz, because I mostly play against players with less chess understanding, which does in the end harm my own chess understanding ... because in blitz complex play and creativity gets easily punished, which is actually probably the biggest strength in my play ... tbh. the best for me would be do start playing a complex endgame, because there I could really outcalculate more or less all of my opponents, it's just so interesting how most of my opponents fold in an equal endgame against me, they just can't think clear/logic, they can't calculate, they do only rely on their memory and patterns ... besides there is some GM in the internet who set me on his notify-list when I go online, so there must be something about my play ... I also drew (not by luck) already an IM with 2450+ Rating on the board ... my playingstyle is just not suited for blitz ... and as a matter of fact most players I know that have a similar blitzrating in the internet like me are more than 100 points worse in real life ... of course I do not know if they do occasionally cheat online or even let other players play for them, which of course would also help them to maintain a higher rating ...

The problem comes when admins cling on to old maps (hi, CB dm6 in map list) or give in to community pressure to add in old maps (hi, CB post-ec5). This only ever helps to stagnate the game and new players are always less likely to join in.

Every VQ3 league had dm6 in the TDM map pool, i think even kuh3liga when they were trying their custom map cups.
I don't remember old maps being added after EC5. Map list was pretty much the same all those years.
The only change was removal of ospdm15 which was only played by like 4-5 clans... mostly belgians.

I agree that new maps should be added.. but not all at the same time. Every cup season should introduce 1 or 2 new maps.


By reading your comments i have a feeling you don't really care what anyone has to say regarding maps or the whole CTF 4on4/5on5 thing. You just want QL to be different from Q3 as much as possible, the key point being NEW. Or am i way off?

With regards to CTF, there is nothing inherently right or wrong about 4 or 5 player teams and the decision should be made based upon the available playable maps, which clearly favours 4v4 currently. My posts in this thread were pretty much only about the stupid "TDM" arguments that supporters of 5v5 go on about.

With regards to TDM, it's not about being different from Q3 as much as possible, it's about selecting maps that are suitable for TDM with preference for new maps where possible (since dm6,7,14 have been on the go for 10 years after all).

For example I don't want to see dm14 go, as I feel it is a map that actually promotes TDM rather than TFFA.

The problem with the whole cycling in new maps thing is we have been playing these maps for so long that the game began to stagnate and lose players a long time ago. Now is not the time to be cautious and slow.

The only 4on4 CTF maps i see in that map pool are troubled waters and ironworks. I absolutely hated troubled waters in Q3 with 5on5. Especially when trying to go middle where the other team had 4 guys at middle. Which is why i prefered to play def 8 years ago and it's still stuck on me today.

TDM style can be played with any number of players actually.
You were asking what that means somewhere in one of your comments..
Well, TDM style is based on controling key positions which is obviously done by camping.
What CTF players are usually refering to is having half of team as defs in the base (key position being flag). Really good CTF attackers (runners to be totally honest) can sneak past mid in to the enemy base almost fully stacked. Imagine their frustration having to deal with 2 defenders that have the same amount of armour.

Disclaimer: what you see below is a theory :)
I guess why they would prefer 5on5 instead of 4on4 is that with 4on4, you have 1 def, 1 def or mid (depending on situation), 2 attackers. Of course the def-mid guy can help with attack but thats very risky especially on bigger maps.
With 5on5 TDM style is to have 2 defs, 3 attackers (that hang in the middle most of the time). In the past CTF style usually just meant having 1 def.
The difference between these tactics is that with 4on4 you can have 2 defs instantly which is the same as in 5on5 but with the absence of one attacker.


About TDM. Leviathan doesn't seem suitable for TDM to me altho it is new. Deep inside (osp5) has been played more than dm7 and dm14 in Q3, so i guess it should be excluded from the get go?
I thought dm7 also promoted TDM.

It wasn't exactly easy to introduce new maps to Q3 as there were so many out there and each had a fan that thought it was the best map ever.

If players are really new, they would consider old maps as new as well :)
Take QW for example, they're playing the same maps over and over again and still have a large userbase. Admins don't really care that much about new players as they tend to give up trying to achieve the same skill as players that have beein playing the game for a long time. So they prefer to keep old maps as thats what makes the old players happy. And they have stuck around for many generations of new players.
I guess something similar goes for QL, no one wants to lose old players by removing old maps.

You've typed so many stupid things in that post I'm not sure I can cover them all.

It may not have been a popular decision to introduce new maps into CB, but lets be honest, the first sign of discontent and CB gave up.

ospdm5 was played more than q3dm7 (available since q3test) and q3dm14tmp (available since pretty much 1999)?
Ignoring the years of extra TDM use these maps have over ospdm5, even when all the maps were in the same pool many more teams had q3dm7 and q3dm14tmp as their home maps over ospdm5. Just look at the last EC final, dm14, dm6, dm7, dm7 or the semi (aAa v Iron) which if I recall were dm14, dm6, cpm4, dm7, osp6.

I'm well aware that ospdm5 was often the winner or runner-up (behind dm6) in "favourite map" polls but the reality is that the majority of matches (league, cup and friendlies) were made up of dm6, dm7 and dm14.

q3dm7 promotes TDM if you consider TDM as just being "four guys on a team vs four guys on a team" and if you think that, who cares about maps anyway?
Lets just play aerowalk and blood run too.

Also ospdm5 hasn't been played for the past two years in QL TDM so it is a different situation entirely.

I answered all your questions and agreed on some of the things you said.. what was so stupid about that?

CTF:
Agreed, i mearly explained what CTF players call TDM style. Can't you even accept that? I thought you were better than that :/

Altho i began my online gaming with Q2 CTF (the real CTF!) 11 years ago, i still consider myself being a TDM player as thats what i've been playing mostly all these years. I get called out a lot as playing TDM style in CTF on pub and that bothers me as well, but I at least understand what they mean.
I don't think TDM players ruined CTF, they just changed it a bit. Switched focus from attack to defense. That kinda screwed up old CTF teams where they only had one good defender and 4 attackers.

QW:
The size of the userbase doesn't matter. It depends on what kind of game people want to play and QW is very difficult to learn and not everyone has the patience or ability to master it. I said QW still has a large userbase. Meaning they were able to keep it while not changing anything. You assumed that having the same maplist will make the game lose players.
I know you'll probably reply that you meant Q3 and not some other game. Well here is a dirty little secret that wasn't even the case with Q3. The series of events eventually killed it (Q4, CPMA, QL). I know i know, how dare i ... well, stats don't lie.

Old maps:

Of course new players don't consider old maps as old but there is a significant problem where new players are not able to learn and develop as players since they are stuck between being too good for one skill level and too inexperienced for another.

Not sure how new maps can change that.

As mentioned before, i already said that cups should introduce 1-2 new maps every season.

New maps:
But if you add a bunch of maps to a cup just to test them out and you end up with majority hating them as they're not real TDM maps at all... what then? close the cup? Thats a risk organisers are not that willing to take.. and it's not just CB.. but i guess some people just like to blame CB for everything.


Yes osp5 was played more than dm7 and dm14. Actually q3dm14tmp came out in january 2000 shortly after SDK and Q3radiant was released and not in 1999.
So you hand picked an EC match to prove that osp5 wasn't played a lot?
I didn't know that maps top clans have as their home maps are the most played maps. I thought we shouldn't blindly trust people with more experience : /
I admined a lot of matches and still have demos of all of them. Guess what, if i sort them out i end up having dm6 in the first place with osp5 right behind it.
Also as far as i remember altho it depends on location of course, osp5 was being played a lot more than any other map (if you don't count dm6 :) ) on public servers.

What do you mean with "four guys on a team vs four guys on a team"?
Not sure if ztn and aero would play out the same way as dm7.
Altho ztn has been played with 4on4 in the beginning, needless to say.. the map was too small :)

Agreed, i mearly explained what CTF players call TDM style. Can't you even accept that? I thought you were better than that :/

The problem is, what you described as TDM style isn't what others call TDM style, ergo there isn't really a TDM style of play, it's just an insult CTF players use when they come up against a strategy they don't like. They tell themselves "It's ok, it's not CTF or CTFers, it's those dirty TDMers ruining our game".

I object to this attitude that the CTF community has about TDM ruining CTF, it was competitive CTF players who ruined CTF.

The size of the player base does matter, you said it was large and nothing could be further from the truth, they've not changed the map list and have not grown in size at all but only decreased.

This may come as a shock to you but Q3 has been in heavy decline since at least 2003 and the impact of Q4, CPMA and now QL has really been negligible.

I'm sure you'll agree that since Q3's heyday between 1999-2002 the player base has been more than decimated and one of the reasons why was players searching for new experiences and finding them outside of Q3.

I explained quite clearly why new maps are beneficial so I'm not going to repeat myself. But adding a couple of new maps gradually is not the approach to take after over a decade of dm6 and dm7.

q3dm7 has been played since q3test and was played for several years before ospdm5 existed. It was played excessively in all the cups and tournaments prior to ospdm5's release and yes, that includes EC1, 2, 3 and 4 (and every other cup and league).

Even after that it was a map that was heavily played right through until the death of Q3 TDM. Your anecdotal "I got admin demos, LOL" argument is silly.

My point wasn't that they were more experienced and didn't pick ospdm5, I was just using two examples off the top of my head that I'm sure most people would recall (or would you rather I recall a random cup I played in?) as illustration.

But anyway, it's besides the point. ospdm5 hasn't ever been played in QL and QLTDM has been going on for two years or so now. (Not to mention it's a map that is suitable for TDM, unlike dm6 and dm7, hence its popularity in polls).

I'm well aware that ztn was played in TDM, the point is nobody would claim those maps "promote TDM", even though technically it is "TDM". It's the same thing with dm6 and dm7, they aren't suitable TDM maps (they have less health and armour than ztn!) only TFFA.

It's useless whine trying to vent frustration, altho i think i clearly explained the difference. Also backed it up with my own experience from my TDM view point trying to fit in a CTF environment. There isn't just one TDM tactic, there are many and they may be different from what old CTF players were used to. Just because there are many versions of the same thing doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Shouldn't use that narrow-minded way of thinking.

I didn't say it was large, i said it is still large. And no amount of new maps could change the size of userbase so that it could be compared to.. wow for example.
It is still large compared to itself. By your statements the game shouldn't have any players left since they haven't changed their map list in 15 years.


I'm a stats freak and there are no surperises to me, i've been around watching Q3 since the test version.

The numbers went up and down thru the years with the peak being Fall of 2002 and the last stand of Spring 2005. What you call being decimated was a small reduction. The exception being Fall of 2004 which is when EC TDM was cancelled. But the numbers went up 20% the next season. The major blow was the release of Q4. That is when you can infact see a huge decrease in Q3 activity. Needless to say, Q4 wasn't what people have hoped for and it died out eventually. Apparently new maps didn't help much as there were too many other problems.

osp5 was being played a lot in the beginning of 2002 and after that (2002 being the most active year).

When you take a statement out of context and put "LOL" at the end of it, it of course sounds silly. My point was i have data which can be used for statistics. I admined matches of clans from all contries. I'm sure dm7 was popular in your country but you can't base your arguments solely on a single location.

Again, you need wider range than that not a single match. If EuroCup was full of swedish clans, you would mostly have dm6 as a home map.

What do you define as suitable TDM map?

Yes, if you play less than 20 minutes a week and they add new maps every month, you will never learn the new maps better than current dominant players who play an hour per day.

On the other hand, if you play an hour per day while the current elite only plays 20 minutes a week and they add new maps every month, you will soon have a significant advantage over the "old" players. Good luck to newcomers trying to catch up to a decade of experience on the old maps.

To me, the latter paragraph seems to more accurately describe the current QLTDM scene.

Indeed. Just add all the possible tdm maps ffs!

So everyone is happy and everyone can play the map they like.
And with this diversity some teams can outplay other teams by just being specialized at a map, which I like.

if dm20 stays in any mappool they better start using a remove first and pick after map picking rule.

removing dm20 and playing ctf 5v5 ? who came up with this shit

Why did they bring Hektik and hub3tourney1 in the duel map pool ? Can't they have a map pool with 5 maps like every fucking league/tournament ?

- "Ok what's your home map?"
- "Hektik"
- "Oh ok thanks random-player-who-practiced-a-map-that-nobody-else-knows-just-so-he-can-win-some-matches."
- "Fuck you, what's yours?"
- "Dismemberment"
- "Oh ok thanks old-school-q3-player-who's-trained-like-a-maniac-when-CPL-added-it-to-the-map-pool."

It's not like players care to learn these maps for Clanbase...

Are there actually any decent and old school q3ers playing a clanbase opencup duel? I would think they focus more on zotac, gdata and any other duel cup with prizes :p

It's not like players care to learn these maps for Clanbase...

Don't worry, they will have more reason to learn them soon i guess :P

so u think CB shouldn't have different mappool then anyone else ? Interesting.

I think that 7 maps is too much for a map choice system, and adding different maps just for the sake of it is one of the reasons that players don't finish the leagues they registered in.

ye hektik and dismemberment arent really needed imho .... maybe hektik has some potential and its new but not rly the other :(

Eurocup with Lanfinals ?? or what exactly is difference between EC and OC nowdays

cup icon, doooh

Hopefully there will be some prices for the winner. That could be a difference. :)

LAN FINALS!!! :DDD would be awsome! :D

not gonna happen :/

For how many years haven´t there been EuroCup finals?

everything is posible :P

Yes, everything is possible. For example it's possible that ASUS ENC Final has no stream :D

the finals have been played already?


meh, i kinda missed it :D

Sweden won 2:0 both maps ~50 frags. I hope we can get some demos...

the swedes won, how surprising ;>

yessssss !!!

It would be awesome only if Juvenile comes to LAN finals. And the new star will rise!

cant we all just be happy that quake tdm is back in eurocup :O

Wassup niggaz? Why u remove dm20? wtf is wrong with u?

coz i told them to xD

It won't happen anyway, they will put dm20 in maplist, cos 60% of players want to play this map!

Names of these 60%?
ok, ok, you are the first one. Second frs and third disrepute. Thats just 3 guys which won't be reach 60% of all TDM players.

Well... Anonymous from germany not in this list 100% :D

Well, you're right and i'm not the only one. So u won't reach 60% anyway.

i like dm20 but i do not care if its removed (aslong as the replacement is good) there are lots of people who want to play it though

dm20 must be in no matter what! also leviathan must be removed no matter what! others things we can discuss! let's make a poll on esr!

not again plase

Legie I hope in QQC future TDM leagues, you will make good maplist...

yop

I told them to remove it so they removed it. End of topic.

Oh... did't know... then it's ok. Sorry Shao Khan.

(Almost) Everyone want dm6 and Leviathan to be removed. Don't play it then in cup as your map pick. Admins will see after cup is finished that it's not needed for the spring season. Just play the other maps of the current pool and stop discussing about mappool until next season.

Really... what's going on? No prerequisites to remove qzdm20. It's still a fresh map, many teams like it. What's wrong with you people? It's really cool to watch, many action on map, many quadruns, cool frags...

Make another reply, maybe they will see it. 4th time is a charm I heard :)

I like to spam!

^^... xD

QQ;

chuck campgrounds and get dm7 on that list

good tdm pool imho, stick with it

listen to the noctis!

why would you remove dm20?

i dont really think hektik is suited for competition and i personally dont like dismemberment, but this is the open cup, where else would you try things out? people need to stop taking it all so serious, just have some fun and next season we will have a better way of judging the maps and maybe we will also have more alternatives by then and can easily rotate the bad maps out

Why do you think hektik is not suited for competitive play?

I think it has potential. I am looking really forward to see some games on it.

Dismemberment, well it might not be the best map on the planet, but at least Players that did not play it in Q3 back then do not get raped that hard as they are in Aerowalk.

whatever you guys decide to play on

as long as you stream it =)

We would love to stream the team games over at http://www.levelupyourgame.net

i would love that you do that too..



finally a chance to see some good 4o4 with playable maps :>

sucks that its premium only 1v1...would be good if theres a nonprem too even if hosted

we could make a q3 duel comp ;)

cba to google downloads...ql will do

hektik in a duel cup booyah \o/

Good old Clanbase... I spent a week trying to recover my old account via their "Help" desk. I guess I'll just give up and make a new account this time :(

I think you need confirmation from your team mates.
Guys at helpdesk do huge amount of work solving support tickets, especially at the start of the cup season so it's very important to follow instructions.

I think this was back in April when not a lot was going on.. but anyway... no, confirmation from team mates apparently wasn't good enough even though I said they could pick ANY of the active players from ANY of the old clans and they'd confirm for me.

They had me download this anti-cheat software called UAC2, to take screenshots of my GUID in Q3... No problem. I install it, and it refuses to work in Win7. No problem, I install XP and dual boot it, reinstall Q3 because it wasn't installed anymore, and spend ages finding a server with PB actually turned on so I could view my GUID.

So I take some screenshots with this software, update my ticket and get told something along the lines of 'there was something wrong with your screenshots, please take some more'. So I take more the next day, update the ticket, get the same reply. This goes on for 2-3 days and I'm starting to get a little miffed. I ask exactly what is wrong with the screenshots so I can fix the issue, and get told basically 'we will not tell you what is wrong with them, it's up to us to decide when we will accept a screenshot'. So I kept going for a few more days following the instructions and then gave up. It's either poor policy or I was unlucky and ran into a total jobsworth admin.

I should add that I followed the supplied instructions to the letter... but I wasn't prepared to carry out the same process every day for a month without any way of knowing whether the 'issues' with the screenshots actually existed, or whether they were just fucking me around, and especially not when the easiest way to verify me (as per their FAQ too) is what you suggested above. They wouldn't even confirm that there even were real issues with the screenshots...

Wow, the longest post I've ever made on ESR and it's a whine.
Surely that gets me an invitation into some sort of private club?

No

If this is your account: http://clanbase.ggl.com/humaninfo.php?hid=1206234
I guess whats wrong is that there are no GUIDS registered to that account.

That means the only way to confirm the account is by having a clan leader of one of those clans you were in to confirm your identitiy.

Looks like they removed the associated GUID since the tickets then. And like I said before, they wouldn't accept the confirmation of anyone in any of the other clans listed there.

Perhaps I'll give it another go and hope I get a different person actioning the ticket...

Nice map pools, I like it, especially giving a chance to hektik which is really promising map.

true, hektik is fun to play :)

CTF 6V6 IMAO !!!!

if any team already with premium and pro players needs a standard one to play tdm, gimme a call!

TDM Mappool seems okay, please do NOT add dm20! :>

Please remove dm6 and replace it with Dreadful Place...agree?

Ye, thats fine with me. (while I still like dm6)

AGREE!

admins should ask every clan leader of signed CTF team what his clan wants to play (4v4 or 5v5).

I wants to see results ... please

Imho we should use different modes (4v4 or 5v5) depending on map size. For example Troubled Waters,
Ironworks and Siberia in 4v4 and the rest in 5v5. This could be decided in pool or smth like that.

I believe troubled waters play better in 5v5 though.
Also Siberia is big enough for 5v5. Only Ironworks is problematic in terms of size really...

Siberia should be 6v6 really and Ironworks 3v3, it is the only way to make CTF fun like the good old days.

[+] I like your forward-thinking

5v5....Troubled Waters. Insanity!

Try it, rather than imagining it.

CTF2 better in 5v5, wow...just wow. You really have no clue at all :)

YOU have no clue at all :).

Contrary to you I actually play the game. Remember ?

I have experienced a few pickups of 5v5 (somehow, everyone agreed without any whine to try it again) in a row back in April or something... All of us on the servers (10 people aye) liked so much to play ctf2 on 5v5 that we played it again, with no leavers and no subs needed.

So yes keep saying I dont have a clue while you sit inactive playing sc2 or whatever else and still think you know better than me :)

Pickup does not equal clanwars. A pickup where the skill-level varies from div1 to div3 in a single game does not equal two organized teams with proper communication and tactics who have consistent rail aim on CTF2. Clearly you don't see the difference between this.

4v4 on CTF2 was bad enough, but unlike you I had the "privilege" of playing it 5v5 in Q3 against railers such as sifer, raoul, blokey, etc. It was complete shit with a 100 rail dmg. Granted, QL rail only does 80 dmg but it's also alot easier to hit with the rail. Like someone in this thread said earlier, since people have been getting better internet and better aim, some maps have just become completely horrible over the years.

I also find it hilarious that because of my recent inactivity I suddenly have no valid opinion. I've played in the most active CTF team of Europe for the past year and also actively played in the high-time of Q3 CTF. Also, I never said I know better than you, just that my arguments are more compelling than yours. :-)

Well then give 5v5 a try in QL.

Whilst I think it is granted pickup does not equal TOPlevel clan games, Im not sure you can use this high level competition ideology to defend 4v4 against 5v5.

If the debate is between which one is the most awful to play on top level, fine let's debate on this. Because I am still sure the 4v4 system without the kill feature is just majorly flawed and makes most of games end depending on how lucky you were to spawn mid or not. Yet again, we are speaking about highlevel, which is about 2% of the playerbase.

If the debate is between which one is the funniest format to play on, fine, let's debate on it...

but you need to tell me which aspect of the game/which part of the community you are trying to favour in your opinion.

I say 5v5 is funnier and isn't as FFAish/newb friendly that it becomes a random chasefest.

You say 4v4 is better because each individual is intrinsically a key player in everything that he does aimwise and decisionwise. That it is also better because it is easier to get 4 people together than 5.

I say this doesn't favour lowerskilled individuals and it removes a key aspect of CTF which was that the mere PRESENCE of a teamate next to you was a KEY factor. Now it isn't really the presence of a teamate that matters but how he will be able to outaim the others. The emphasis in 4v4CTF isn't much of what your teamates do anymore but HOW they do it. It automatically makes aiming a much bigger factor than players and team's decisions.

If you remain true to your past experience in 5v5, you will agree with me that 5v5 was indeed sometimes a fragfest, but not to such an extent ! There had to be a balance, you obviously can not win a game with 5 aimwhores who can't strafe or RJ for a shit. You can't win a game with a bunch of people who rather kill this guy than run for the capture.

With much lesser players to kill, it becomes easier for anyone with a good aim who knows basic strafing to get out of the base and work out a cap, hence why we have such very-stupidly praised highscoring format with 4v4 nowadays. in 5v5, a team that gets outfragged can still overwhelm an enemy, know which guy to chase, which isn't really that important. You can still return a flag if you respawn mid!


I didnt mean to say you didnt have a word anymore on the matter, but you and bld are always bringing that condescendant speech because of your past achievments and that easily pisses me off at times. I know that you guys have always been for a small lineup and whilst it would be a bit lame to simply think that you are mainly praising 4v4 because of that, I believe it's not wrong to think it has some weight in the balance. Also as I said I also had my share of tough aimwhores to deal with in the middle and I had my share of whine about it, but in the end I never stopped playing and never stopped adding up and having fun. But ever since QL ctf and 4v4 came in, this + the removal of the /kill feature, I really tend to get bored and I really hesitate before adding to a pickup...

EDIT: "and unlike you..." blabla: no sir, I had that privilege aswell. What do you want, shall I kneel before you, your Majesty ?
Really get off your throne, you and blade.

I don't mean to be condencending at all. The thing is, I remember in 2005 when Q3 CTF was dying all the top teams were asking for 4v4. You can read it in any of the ClanBase comments of the latest EuroCups. I just see history repeat itself in QL. Old maps, which are fun to play in pickups of course, but really bring nothing new to the table to veteran players and clans such as you and I. Old maps and old gametypes bring no new blood and new blood is exactly the thing we need.

Let's put aside which mode is better to play skillwise, funwise or whatever, we can talk about that forever. In my eyes 4v4 just brings a more dynamic and more accessible way of playing CTF. Easy to learn, hard to master, that sort of stuff. Even in the Q3 days people argued 4v4 would bring new life to the community because TDM and FT teams could hop in without having to find an additional player. Your own clan LLL has had immense difficulty fielding 4 players for a CTF game, I can't even remember the last time LLL has actually played a final. These situations will only get more likely in 5v5.

Now with this renewed discussion (which for me still comes out of nowhere, probably just because CP1 was added) splits the already small CTF community in half (again) and if 5v5 were to go through it would mean that teams will have an even harder time fielding a full lineup to prevent defaults which have been happening in every division for the past year. I just don't see the benefit of 5v5 for the "scene" at all, besides the fact that I personally don't like it.

But maybe you're right, maybe 5v5 will do wonders for QL CTF. Just with knowledge gained from Q3 CTF dying in exactly the way QL is now headed makes me very wary of a switch back to 5v5.

(I'll just ignore your edit for the sake of civilized discussion)

I have always said 4v4 in q3ctf was fine. But that is also mainly because we had still the kill feature back then.

As I said the main problem with 4v4 is actually what you guys point to be bad in 5v5 and that you want to see less happen thanks to 4v4.

Your main issue with 5v5 is the fact that maps tend to look a bit overpopulated at times contrary to 4v4.

My main problem with 4v4 without the kill feature is that I had sooo many times that feeling that the enemy team robbed an easy cap in just because they had one or two good spawns and/or me and my teamates had one or two bad spawns.

Probably 4v4 CTF could be great with the /kill feature which I always believed to add more depth and dynamic to the gamemode.
I believe that 5v5 CTF is a needed step atleast at the moment to compensate from these ridiculous lucky caps that only happen because of the random spawn system we have right now. And I also sincerely believe, however how complex and workedup spawnsystem ID SOFTWARE is going to propose to us, it will never reach a level of balance as /kill offered.

Whatever would the consequences be of going back to 5v5 in terms of number of teams (it's already low and dying anyway...) I don't want this to keep on going any further, as every other CTF clangame or even PICKUP is just a big sack of frustrations.

I don't think either 4v4 or 5v5 will eventually save or be the death of CTF, but I sure would prefer a 5v5 League format with 30 teams and a lot less randomness and much more fun than a 4v4 League format with 35-40 teams and a bunch of random games with 7-4 ending scores and alikes..

Seriously, ctf2 even in 4v4 is a shitty experience for spectators, I'd hate to see the middle cessfest with 5v5.

Yea maybe you're right, but I'm not much into CTF so I just gave an example to show that sticking in one particular quantity mode for all maps is actually not adequate. Some CTF gurus shall meet together and discuss what mode is the best for each map and make it standard. I think it is the only way to satisfy as much players as possible.

Good idea! I want admins make same thing with TDM maplist!

Don't add dm20

To be honest guys, I see all mimimi on 5on5 CTF about more TDM, chase, more respawn etc.. etc...
I find it so stupid you know, it's all about the way you play the game mod. People think we have to chase and tdm in 5on5 more than in 4on4, It's all bs!!
You can have in 4on4 CTF, TDM, chase and lucky respawns aswell, look at k1ck CTF team. They play TDM so often during the CTF game.
Look at JapaneseCastles, and ShiningForces, if you are really CTFER, there is no way to midd and chase and bs company, because there is NO MIDD to do. like we had on q3wcp9. We have 2 box on these both maps. All that you need is the pressure of 3 attackers on 2 defs.
Now, about others maps like Stonekeep, ctf8, ctf2, or Courtyard it's enough big to play it in 5on5.
Just go learn how playing CTF then. I will only agree on fact you say ctf7 is too small for 5on5 CTF.
Thx bye.

still same points

- old maps wcp1, wcp9, wcp5 ....
- "they play TDM so often during the CTF game" - how they can play tdm when they play ctf ?
- "All that you need is the pressure of 3 attackers on 2 defs." - again wrong logic and arguments, i think it should depends on clan or not?

I understand you guys from d&p and GRAND, you were playing a lot of OSP 5v5 on wcp maps before and I understand what you want , but this is quakelive, its not q3 osp.

so players like czm, cl0ck, deus,viju, linkin,spartie,draven etc and top eu ctf clans are not good CTFers? or wait .. they are/were JUST best in the world. Its because their TDM style ?

TDM just seems to mean good aim really.

The problem is not people not wanting to learn how 5v5 is played. In the end, it's all about you, dem0n and a few others being too lazy to train and wanting their clans to be good as they were in Q3. Can't stand change and that you're not at the top anymore ?

now i see what guys want

whos flaming on ESR about 5v5:
headz
demon
naity
makie
visser


http://clanbase.ggl.com/claninfo.php?&cid=1532324

there is see something similar , but dont know what ... or wait

you mean that you won last 5v5 cup in OSP that you can win now with 5v5 league in QL? niceeee ... that's it ! (:::::

you are pathetic. Pretty sure we'd have won that cup had it been 4v4 mr smartass. 5v5 is just better and I took time to explain my thoughts clearly but all you're doing is trolling.

yes kirua, we would be sooo much better in 5v5, such a major skill boost for us man, you have no idea.

Actually believe we'd jump from bottom div5 to top div1 only thanks to 5v5. You just discovered us, damn.

AH dem0n :P

I dont think you would have won 4v4 like 5v5.

You had 5 players the last cup and we had to play with 1 guy who couldnt speak english and didnt have teambinds even :P

5v5 is better. There's a reason it was used back in the days. Now stfu, thx.

thats right mate!

UT2004 1v1 has more signups than QL 1v1...remove the premium maps goddamn

Looking for a clan !!! div 1 or 2 thx ^^

Can someone give me a good reason that dm6 should be a map anymore?

It's not that fun to spectate except when its close (not that often), it's not that fun to play when you are inevitably out of control, and it often comes down to small, minor mistakes (in other words, LUCK) as to who wins the map.

Look at the ideal QL map of ZTN. At no point are you out of the game, but if you are playing a good game, you can shut down your opponent. There's no luck element involved.

Dumb comment retracted.

Didn't read the post, assumed dm6 for dueling.

Leviathan = bad TDM map, I'm happy admins removed it from the mappool!

I am the only one worried about the so low number of clans registred so far?

34 clan for tdm is a total failure
29 for ctf ...

these are the numbers of a dead game :(

Pretty much. Eurocup AND Opencup TDM? I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Maybe if we made tdm 5v5...

Make a poll!

not getting much smarter are you

Said the guy that made a complete fool of himself and continues doing so with almost every post he makes.

If YOU say this it must be true.

Yeh not that good.

Well i'm up for playing ctf, but I don't really put any effort in getting into a team. Where should I look for a team?
Back in 2000 we as a team looked for free players on pub ctf servers if we needed new talent. I haven't seen such a thing happening since I'm playing QL.

its clanbase, its wank, why bother signing up? ;p

-dm6 :(

amazing shit :P

Kirua and Blade going forward to be the elite clowns of quakelive <3

It was nice to play against oMg for years, at kuh3liga, clanbase, jolt whereever we played them.

But the last q3 season where oMg played with Blade and without vertex was only sad.

Only a whining team which was not able to win a match and dropped to fuck up the last quake 3 season.

Nice one Blade.

Sorry slic, but you failed many times in my tournaments and also in Nationscup when you sign up and your team didnt play single game. How you can blame someone

Because he's just another scrub who thinks bringing up meaningless crap makes him feel part of the 'gang'.

I signed up one time of my life for 1 of yours cups and i played all games there :)

And about your nationscup: You asked me Legie if i could get some people from Norway again to play in your cup, i never told you we will play for 100% :)

So plz piss on the right people, who destroyed Tourneys everytime like Mr. Bld :)

@Blade

STFU plz, 10 years of quake and still no competition ;)

i dont know what to say. ill become a full time caster and just whine how ctf became 5v5.

ah oh wait im gonna play tdm this season :) hell yes!