The progression of this industry is cool and all, but god damn I still like me some CPL style LANs. Back then, it was relatable because that's how some local/national LANs would look like. Today there is a raw, lo-fi vibe to them which is so nostalgic.

Most of all, more real nerds, less hipsters.

Can't remember any loud drunk annoying Counterstrikers from my first LAN ~1999, 2000 either. It was bliss until those fuckers arrived.

Hipsters are soft cock pansies lol

Ah yes, the time when E-Sports was supposed to make us all rich. "It's the next big thing!!1"

Ironically, prize money for hardcore competitive gaming only went downhill from there.
I mean the prize money that's actually being delivered. I'm still waiting for my prize from the 2002 WWCL finals. "Our sponsor dropped off" - aka "It's E-Sports, we don't actually have to pay you"

Good mini-docu, good insight into the spirit of the time.

Eh, I don't know. I'd say CS:Go is very hardcore, StarCraft/2 too. Sure, they don't pay as good as Dota 2 or whatever but these are living the dream. OUR DREAM :(

Anyone who hasn't lived at least since the 80s hasn't witnessed, and as such maybe can't tell how the increasing abundance and accessability of screens in our lives (TVs, tablets, smartphones, cars, ...) has basically turned our brains into mush.
Anything displayed on these screens has been designed to be as easy and instantly gratifying as possible. Why? Otherwise people won't bother with it and instead buy the more easily accessible, more pleasant product of a competitor.
25 years ago, you had to put down at least a months pay for a desktop and monitor, then be able to install an operating systems and drivers, often being required to enter data into a text-based console, to access the internet. Nowadays you agree to a monthly 10€ payment, press a button and a logo, and you're there.

We do very much live in an instant gratification society. Anything that requires serious effort to be put into it will be avoided by the ADD ridden, TV and smartphone addicted masses.

As such, popular FPS E-Sports games are flashy, round-based, and team-oriented.
Flashy optics attract beginners. A round-based system eliminates the need for intricate, long-term strategy. And teams make individual skill much less important, again attracting lesser quality individuals (-> your average, every day guy).

Any popular E-Sports game certainly is NOT hardcore. If it is hard, much less newcomers will begin playing it and stick with it, there won't be a large enough playerbase, little to no sponsor money, and as such no major tournaments.

Do not agree with this line of thought. Almost everyone can perform most physical activities in the Olympics, and yet there are countless competitions held around the world on a daily basis. Easy to learn, hard to master. I don't even give a shit about sports. Just saying.

You do have some valid points but, honestly, I am still not quite sure what your point is. Were you just in a bad mood?

The Olympics benefit from tradition. Interestingly, the same can be said about hardcore E-Sports like Quake - half of the current top players come from the mid 2000s. Player numbers in Quake have been steadily dropping since the late 90s though.

The point? Explaining the pathetic shitshow that is E-Sports today. I mean, invent a time machine, go back to 2000, talk to me or any other Quake player, explain to them how E-Sports will look like in 2020, and they'll laugh at you. It can't possibly get that bad. But it did, and looking at the reasons for it helps.

Ha, the current esport scene it certainly not what I expected, much less wanted. It's sad, really.

But... Quake has become utterly boring to watch. I am not interested in watching people wait and wait and wait. vo0 vs clawz was the most exciting Quake final in a while. And it wasn't that exciting cause vo0 underperformed.

If you doubt my words Quake has become slow, just watch any recent CS:Go final. I do that every 6-12 months. CS is getting better (aggressive) while Quake is going the other way. No, +back is not hardcore

Because you are not watching Quake, you are watching QC

I just got into (watching) QC / QPL about half a year ago, and I honestly find it pretty sublime.

Dunno about that judgement about pace. If you find current Quake 1on1 too slow, don't bother watching previous Quakes, except maybe QW and Q3 Promode. Q2 and Q3 1on1 matches were certainly slower paced than current QPL matches.
Have you seen Rapha vs Cypher in the Stage 3 finals? Insane!

I have watched some CS:GO after you mentioned it. Also some Apex, because I wanted to see what Cooller plays apart from Quake. My opinion on those games: meh.

I guess I am bored with Quake. Maybe spawning with a load out wasn't such a bad idea.

Please share a link of the insane rapha vs cypher stage 3 finals. Is that QC?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDsm0QgAwzc

QC definitely isn't boring yet. Even in the ~6 months I've been watching there has been plenty of change and adaption. I can for example name that vengeurr has become a much more solid player. Cypher has really come along too. As far as strategy is concerned, Rapha showed in the Stage 2 finals how effective Athena can be, which a number of players have been trying to replicate. And in the Stage 3 finals Cypher used Keel very expertly. When I started watching I saw Sorlag get picked a lot, which doesn't really happen anymore, because player started to be able to predict the movement better.
I've heard repeated claims how camping is too prelevant in QC today. I don't know what these people have been smoking. QC is definitely a faster, more aggressive game than Q3/QL and Q2, and the most successful players are those who use controlled aggression. Yes you can ride it out on ztn after you established a healthy lead, but that has always been the case.
People have mentioned k1llsen. If you think he's a camper, watch the end of the last map vs Rapha in the Stage 3 finals. I won't put up spoilers.. just watch.. nuff said.
Frankly it seems people just like to complain. There is often very little basis for what is being said.

K watched the first three encounters of your link, in the first map. I stopped watching QC because. For you and the sake of my answer i put this pain on me again.

Like i said, i watched the first three encounters

1. Cypher trying to do damage on Mega. Because of only being able to collect little stack and because of the fact that both RA and MH have the same respawn time, both of the players are evenly stacked most of the time. This results in very cautious attacks like in this example.
2. Rapha attacking like crazy on RA. Also the result of limited stack size and equal respawn times, it results in all in attacks.
3. A freshly fragged Rapha frags Cypher, wo has the RA and full health and all weapons. Also Cypher hits perfect LG. And he is Cypher. How is that even possible? QC has it.

An uninteresting clusterfuck of too cautious or too aggressive attacks and randomized frags that make no sense at all. It is exactly the same like in the beginning of QC. And how could this have changed anyway if the game rules remained the same all the time?

QC is bullshit and not worthy.

No offense (really), but what you wrote seems like what I described - complaining for complaining's sake.

I think equal spawn times for both major items fit very well into the game, because stacks are not purely determined by items, but rather by the champion picks - especially starting stacks. But the prevailing strategy right now is that players try to delay the major items to create a dominant rotation with them - which sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't. It's just a different form of strategy than let's say in Q3 with 35 secs for the MH and 25 for the RA.. but I really don't believe it's an inferior one.
Your point 2: yeah, that's Rapha, lol. I criticize him a lot for his arrogant aggression. Most of the times sadly it works out. Also he tends to try stuff, fail at it the first time, learn from it, and then succeed at it the next time. If you continue watching you'll see the next times he rushes RA with Cypher waiting, he gets the frag.
Point 3: as a fan of Cypher and the LG I personally didn't like that either, BUT it just demonstrates there's more to Quake than aim, and you can lose an encounter despite quasi-perfect aim. That's Quake. Cypher made a tactical mistake, Rapha played it very cleverly, and that caused the outcome.
Btw., I had great LG in Q3 and often got taken out by attacks with other weapons that I felt like I won too. Again, that's Quake. Despite great aim I obviously had a weakness somewhere that my opponent was able to exploit.

Please name a recent matchup where you got the feeling that the inferior player won. I can't think of one, and I have watched most QPL matches of the last 6 months, meaning hundreds of games.

Also, name your alternative. What is better than QC?
I lived Q3 for a couple of years, and at least from a spectator's POV I rate QC almost equal.
I played Q2 a little and have watched some LAN finals etc., and Q2 is frankly completely outdated and outclassed by the later Quakes. I just watched the QCon 07 finals just to make sure, and was again remembered of the very much less immediate weapons and the grave imbalance.. I basically just watched minute after minute of spawnrape.
Q1/QW: claustrophobic maps, the whole of two (!) significant weapons.
If you have a first person arena shooter that you like better than QC, please name it, and post some of your favorite matches.

The superiour player wins, that is not the point. The point is, that in QC, it looks shit. And there is no alternative. I stopped watching Quake because QC is not Quake. If it was Quake i would watch it.

Okay, to each their own. I'm still curious though, as we are having this discussion - did you watch / play and enjoy any of the previous Quakes?

I love playing and watching Q3 and QL. The only sport, including non electronic sports, in this world i ever enjoyed watching. I was always super super super excited when one of the few events actually took place and i watched it live rather than as vod to squeeze the last bit of enjoyment. QC is a scam. It sucked in the beginning and it sucks now and it will always suck. Tim Willits killed my only sport related excitement. I hate QC, i hate SpongeError, i hate Tim Willits. And i don’t ever again want to talk about Shit Shampions. Hate it. Go to Reddit with QC related opinions.

Sry*

Okay, thanks for the info. I at least wanted to understand where you're coming from. I still like Q3 best too btw. (although I'm biased because it's the Quake I started with and the only one I played seriously).

In multiplayer i started with Q2, (then Q1), then Q3test (1999 baby). But seriously played only Q3/QL. Though i am starting to miss Q3 over QL. First fps in general was Wolfenstein 3D though. And first multiplayer shooting was Duke Nukem 3D. =) Never played Q4 online, only single player. Tried QC for a bit, had to puke and started to hate it for it destroying QL e-sports.

Nice. Very similar path here. First MP game was Duke3D and Blood (based on the Build engine, same as Duke3D).. played it on LAN in school in IT class instead of learning stupid Turbo Pascal programming :P
First online FPS Unreal (not -Tournament). Very soon after that Q3 (Q3Test.. can still remember it running with like 30 FPS, if even). In one Q3 Test version they even disabled strafejumping or decreased the jumpheight radically or something.. biggest shitstorm of the time.
From then on only Q3 for a couple of years. Late Q3 with CPMA and QL was never for me.
Tried Q2, Q1, Q4 in that order, don't like any of them :)
Then 10, 15 years pause, and now only a couple of months ago rediscovered Quake and tried QC. Plays like shit :) .. rockets garbage, sound garbage, no brightskins.. But as much as I disliked playing it I enjoy watching the high calibre matches in the QPL.. somehow these genius players overcome the technical deficiencies and just play great Quake.

As you just came back. The QC thing has already gone through ESR. It is about to die. Let it die gracefully.

ok, that wasn't half bad.

borg guy has crouch slide now?

Well he's had that since I've been watching, and no clue before that :P

Watch Cooller vs Raisy at Lucca 2019 too if you haven't already. Especially Awoken.

Yeah, all of that has happened after I gave up on this game. Last final I watched before that was k1llsen against some new guy. It was a snooze fest. Just like that k1llsen vs cooller from I don't know which event

QCon 19 probably. I didn't like that one either.

the cooller game? How in the world did he manage to time multiple tribolt shots from mega to tribolt platform on ztn. Was he able to hear him?

I haven't figured out the sound in QC yet.

Btw., another great matchup from today imo. Just watched it.. just felt like classic great Quake imo. -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMzBYt7cIdU

QC is just shit to spectate, pace of the game doesn't matter.

This is the brain dead corpse of the Quake community talking right here. The same type of stupidity that swears up and down at "hardcore" Quake is but can't explain why top flight Quake players get routinely annihilated in any other competitive game.

it was predictable even in 2015, and it's surprising that they managed to win any tournaments at all or get a few 2nd placings. playing quakecon ctf tournaments once a year with lineups comprised of two duelers and two ctf players doesn't exactly translate to playing a new team game with real competition. winz and akm did ok though.

Couldn't agree more with everything you said.

How has prize money gone down? Dota, LoL, CS:GO, Overwatch prize pools are pretty sizeble, and I imagine Valorant will add to that.

Nice documentary, but Fat comes comes across as a an egotistical bell. I guess you have to when you want to succeed. For me, he was good, but nothing how he puts himself across on his stream and in the media.

Nostalgic though

He is more of an entrepreneur with a lot of self confidence than a gamer. I bet the gaming side of things does not interest him too much. It is all to make his brand and grow his business. This is professional marketing.

He was very much a gamer since he won world titles in multiple games, he just realized that he could set himself up for life if he marketed himself correctly. He had the entire package, good looks, youth, great speaker and self-belief/charisma/self-confidence.

I'm really happy that he did so well for himself, he deserved every bit of success because he worked his ass off.

Good looks oO :D

I was about to say that's the 90thiest thing I've seen in quite a while but then they showed Painkiller and now I am not sure if the mid 2000s were ... oh never mind. I just remembered how I looked back then.

Loved the part where the host casually touches Johnathan's shoulder, notifying him that he's there. No wonder reality tv took over.

Yeah it's weird how the early to even mid noughties still had that 90's vibe, especially with crt's being the norm.

Indeed. Now I wonder what else do I remember wrong :|

Was a while great time, loved the 90's and early to mid noughties, a lot better than now.

Has nothing to do with getting older, just a lot more chilled relaxed period, none can have a laugh anymore and I find it sad.

djwheat and thresh just started a new interview podcast and did an episode with fat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voVXQ6cQ4NU

i recommend the other episodes as well, really good show

72 views only :/

We are dinosaurs :|

Thanks for the link. Great stuff!

Cheers for that will check it out

Never knew about voo doing that to Fatal1ty's stuff.

I don't know him well enough so I don't have a valid opinion, he could've been pissed off and we all make mistakes.

That was a great interview, shame it's got no views.

I always wondered how fatal1ty practiced so much. If I played that many hours my aim would deteriorate and I would be better off taking a break.

Another rare video, I only ever saw the finals, never knew the semi's were on YouTube.

I'm going to dig deeper and see what else I can find.

removed/disabled?

Watch the video directly on YouTube, works for me

Yeah, that worked. I watched this thing live at the time. CPL showed the world how it's done. It died later but Munoz did open the door

I always wondered why it died? It seemed like it got enough air-time and it seemed very popular as well.

Poor mangement?

Best I could offer is baseless speculation. Guess their business model didn't work well enough at the time. My personal observation is that Intel has been the driving force for a good 15 years now. ESWC, WSVG, ESL, you name it. Everything after WCG died has been heavily backed by Intel. Maybe they pick and choose who wins, you know? As I said, speculation based on nothing but uninformed observations.

edit: added missing words

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Young people being brainwashed into wasting their money and precious time on consumerist nonsense, while the corporate media socializes it with the adults through what is supposed to be a sober, disinterested perspective on the whole charade (it is anything but this).

Underneath the facade was an interesting and exciting game, and the community produced a number of great individuals. I'm glad I was able to enjoy these things while they lasted. But the rest of it can stay in the past.

What are you talking about?

https://youtu.be/00CnR8Rwdf4?t=204

Best quote ever.