respect the paco

My face while reading this topic:

http://filesmelt.com/dl/Face8.png

http://www.concordextra.com/img_uploads/rennie-extra-tablets.jpg

ELO is okay for duel only. Like we've constantly argued with Sirax in the past, the ELO measurable is only handy in one verses one situations but he never agreed.

For instance in TDM. If one team wins, that entire team wins ELO (as long as the other side had decent/similar ELO) and didn't take in to account individual performances. Ie, why would the lowest scoring player still gain ELO etc.

And the same with LOLca, you could have a player on the losing team that gets 10k damage and 110 score, but if his side loses because he's carrying 4 noobs he doesn't gain any ELO for his exceptional performance.

It was always flawed for anything apart from duel. I fully support it coming back, but only for duel.

It used Trueskill, which was designed for team games. Specific situations like you describe don't matter because it's a statistical measure and quirks like that will average out.

Winning is the only measure worth considering; if you do a lot of damage, you will win more which will increase your Elo. If you play like a +back camping glory hunter you will do a lot of useless damage which doesn't help your team win.

Elo is not designed to reward "exceptional performances" or doing a lot of damage, it's designed to predict the outcome of matches (which it does quite successfully, including in team games).

You've pretty much covered it, playing with anyone decent the games come out insanely close, makes it much more enjoyable. On Steam hitting 4k net damage in a random server is almost a given and it's such a waste of time.

Yeah, the other team are just as likely to have noobs. Think about it..red team, blue team..eventually it's 50/50 red/blue. The only constant is you yourself. If you win fewer than 50% of your games, it's YOU that is the deciding factor in that.
The problem with it is that takes far too long to become accurate. And that everybody knew how to abuse it to get an artificially high elo, or to get an artificially low one to play on noob servers. So...the elo of the other people on the server (something the algorithm does take into account) wasn't ever going to be accurate.
Maybe now that new players have to pay, it would be more accurate, but I still think that for team games it should take more than just the final score into account. The result SHOULD be a big factor in it, though. Otherwise, you get what we have at the moment - score whores, hiding until their team are all dead, so they can rack up easy frags on weak opponents and do a lot of damage because the opponents are chasing, while they just +back and spam or play rail-and-run.
But I think damage and frags should count, too. And be weighted depending on the rating of the player you're doing the damage TO. In fact, to counter hiders, maybe damage/time should be used instead of just damage in CA.
And any time you quit a game, everything you did up to that point, damage and frag-wise should still be considered, but the result should always be recorded as a loss. People specced at the last second to avoid losing Elo in team games, and they do it now to avoid losses being recorded. Though...why a stat page full of quits is preferable to losses, I don't know

I think skill rankings like the QLRanks system work best when the actual number is hidden, really. People get too fixated on individual wins and losses, ups and downs, when really they only ever work on average over time. Generally speaking better players have higher ELO. There are lots of individual exceptions of who has more than who, and swapping on the boundaries, but overall the system does actually give an indication. The key word is indication, too.

When we bring ranking back in Aus, I'd prefer to see bronze/silver/gold/platinum/etc. skill levels rather than a bunch of numbers. You could even have some kind of "rank protection" - you don't instantly drop from gold to silver by going below a certain number, but after enough games below the threshold you will. That reduces the shit-team factor even more, because you can't just drop a rank by ending up on one shit team.

I like that idea.

lol no. Statistics average out in teamgames. Using anything other than wins is terrible.

Tracking people's performance for skill evaluation is awesome and more or less essential, but it should be working hidden, in the background, exclusively for this purpose. As soon as you give it a numeric value which is publicaly visible, then it becomes an entirely different beast. A shit beast, if you will. It brings out the OCD in all of us, makes us behave differently. Makes us worse human beings.

A proper tier system, with say 10-15 tiers, with the tiers based on these hidden numeric value's ranges, would be more than sufficient for self-evaluation and bragging rights. Just please for the love of god, do not show the numeric value directly.

> then it becomes an entirely different beast. A shit beast, if you will.

Generations of chess players are laughing at you.

the difference is that chess elo is based on tournament matches, not random matches you play in the park after a couple beers.

Chess elo on online chess servers is tracked basically always, unless you choose to play unranked, which tbh is no fun at all and you'll only play random anonymous nubs. And even if you play a good game, that you'd be proud of, you'll be annoyed that it wasn't ranked and therefore doesn't really count. So even drunk i prefer playing rated.

That doesn't mean elo itself is not fucked up in online chess aswell. Indeed it is. plenty of players refuse to play a ~100 elo lower rated player, because they know they might very well lose. Therefore they deliberately ignore the fact that their elo is not representing their real strength.

So yea elo does bring up the arrogance, the overrated piece of shit in a lot of players (i'm no exception). But i definately prefer it to playing unranked.

So what do you think of my idea in #17, to keep the number but only show players their rank as "Gold" or "Bronze".

Well certainly players would not go nuts as much. So if everyone just wanted to play decent matches and nothing else ranks would work.

But the advantage of elo is that you can track your performance in a continuous way. It's much more informative to look at an elo/time graph than only seeing when you crossed the gap to the next rank, unless the ranks are sufficiently close, which would lead to basically the same madness as with elo.

So i'm not against elo. There'll always be quitters and stats whores no matter what.
If players don't care about their ranking i propose to ignore it and don't complain if you can't play on servers that require a certain level of skill.

So maybe ranks and some fancier stat tracking that has graphs for accuracy, damage output, net in TDM, etc? You can still track wins and losses, and graph those too. That might be a good middle ground for people who want ELO numbers to monitor their performance over time?

Yeah that could be a good compromise

yes. yeesyesyesyesyes.

I'm totally with you - I love to see the specific Elo values, but in reality, I agree that everyone would behave much more nicely with a simple tier system. Well said!

Elo duel sucks.

ya u never quite got past that 1200 mark eh?

Was over 1900 on my new account. You still suck at ql, scrub.

I dont like the elo thingy at all. Quake is (in my opinion) supposed to be an oldschool arena shooter...and people constantly pretend how cool they are for playing this old game with its 1999 flair.

Elo just puts pressure on people for something that isn't worth 2 shits. I kinda hope this wont get forced onto me. After a while I cared WAY too much about elo. I would rather have had high elo than high skill, all I tried to improve was my elo number, not my skill. And thats where games like Csgo lack. All what people try there is to hit supreme or global, thinking its the best you can get, even though its just the beginning, and barely anyone there knows about that.

Just let quake be what quake is and always was. A competitive shooter where it comes down to the real 1v1 stuff. I feel much more motivated to play random people where I have no clue if they're like new, or have been playing quake for 10 years+ and will just destroy me.

The Elo script stuff always took that "surprise" away and I couldnt play without that anymore because I was afraid of playing people beyond a certain elo due to being scared of losing some e-life points which (as already mentioned) dont mean shit.

I wouldnt mind having a good working system to determine proper skill matchups, but elo is the wrong way...even League of Legends has stopped using the official Elo-System years ago as a ladder representation, cause it didn't work out.
It also didnt work back then in clanbase, yet they were too stubborn to get something that actually works.. I can't see why the QL community tries to ride an obviously dead horse(-system) here, using something that just isnt representative.

But League of Legends has lolking.net, we need something similar for QL.

I idealized the idea of playing again "like it's 1999" without any sort of rankings, and it actually sucks once you do it again. It feels like you are lost in the middle of nowhere. So many noobs, impossible to find a good even duel.

True, we need something, but not the Elo system. It never really worked for me. Ofc there are people who are better on one map than the other...but I had people who had all around the same experience on ztn (yea...i love that map..fuck me). Often I lost to people who were 1400-1500 elo with 600-1000 games on ZTN. They totally crushed me, even tho I had more raw ztn games. And in the next game I played a guy with 1900 elo who had like 1500+ztn games and I obliterated him 2-3 times in a row.
I barely ever see how the elo system represents anything, besides the fact it doesn't.

I've beaten people with 2k elo already who've been playing faceit cups...like 8/1 and such...and they were trying to win. And then I lose to people who have 1300-1500 elo (no fakes, no elo-droppers) like they were twice as good as the 2k elo guy/s...

Elo isn't magic. No rating system is. It's not predictive in nature. All it does is give probabilities. Not to mention that a player can completely obliterate another one match and end up being raped by the same guy the next one. Unexpected outcomes are expected to happen. Don't ask too much from a rating system.

That said, Elo isn't necessarily the best. It still does a good job.

yea, idiot mathematicians came up with something that noobs find hard to believe it represents their skill, because they are low level according to it. You gonna get kicked regardless of elo because you are not on par, real easy. The surprise you mention lasts about 3 secs when at first contact you eat 40percent shaft, we should thow out elo for such a thrill.
"i was afraid to lose elo which dont mean shit"
Let me congratulate on your nablogic.

this guy :D

I'd be very happy to see elo coming back, mainly for duel and for CA. In duel, it's simply nice to have a rough estimate of how strong your opponent is. In CA, with the shuffle bots, it's the only way to get balanced matches consistently. I was impressed how well it worked, despite being a team mode.

People complaining about the side effects of elo are - imho - facing an internal conflict which they have all the power to solve. I think the problem can be described as leaning toward playing casually while retaining a competitive ego, which is a recipe for disaster. One's ego should always match one's actions. If you want to play casually, just stop caring about it. If you want to play competitively, you will like elo. And if you really really can't let go your ego, create a fake for when you're playing crap.

This, the problem is within the people themselves.

It's a, we choose to have no self control, so, lets eradicate it/ban make it illegal!!!?!?!

ELO was terrible for CA. A 2300+ ELO player using a ~1600 ELO account would win every single match he was in barring a miracle 10-9 overcoming the odds. What do you get for that? -5 maybe -10 ELO. What is the purpose of ELO then? Even if you overcome the odds your ELO is lowered. That makes no sense. Aliasing rendered ELO useless in CA. Even if you managed to kick him he would /reconnect and rejoin. If he's playing with friends the vote will never pass in the first place. It doesn't matter as much in duel because you either win or you lose there is no shuffle going on. Here is the motivation behind aliasing. They establish the ELO they want on their main account legitimately or not. Doesn't matter. Now what they do is create a new account to rip ELO off of players below and above their main level. What this does is bring their competition down and raise their main account in rank. Most people don't realize that is one of the reasons behind aliasing. It's really sad and pathetic. Why anyone would go through all of that for something that means nothing is almost funny. The 1% ELO players never even play in pubs on their mains anyway for fear of losing ELO. So they only play each other. This makes their main ELO even higher and none of it trickles down to the 99%. This permeates misrepresentation of skill throughout the entire playerbase. A solid T4 player targeted for his ELO will only lose never gain. He can never reach the 1% naturally in these conditions it's not possible. Once they've taken the ELO off of him they move on and target someone else. I've seen it happen to others. I've seen it happen to me. My time in the top 20 U.S. was short lived and uneventful. I never want to be there again because the ravenous aliases lock on their target. The only escape is to not play or create a new account which compounds the problem and the cycle starts over again.

Elo is in no way connected to tier-slumming, it has always existed.

And the alias is as likely to be on your team as the other team, so it doesn't matter.

Not if you're being targeted for ELO.

so fucking true

Lol missed this reply, + so hard. Quake is a competitive game across all modes, always has been, always will be, deal with it.

I have to say that now without elo we lose a proper balance sistem and random shuffle is pretty bad especially for ctf, talking about ca, i think that most of ca players loves elo but probably get obsessed, show a rank instead of a number might be the best solution

If server owners simply had an option to disable elo that would be perfect. For those of us who want it, which is the majority of the Clan Arena players I enjoy playing with and myself, bring it back. :)

Pretty sure it's going to be like this, as server will have to opt in and send the data to a central place.

elo gave me the motivation to start duel in the first place... For my motivation it is of utmost impotence.*









typo -_-

Win/Loss based team Elo is fine when people on the server are in a similar skill range. Applying it to random pub games with people hopping on and off doesn't make much sense.

My biggest problem with QLranks was that it covered all servers/matches. It left no room for "playing for fun" if you had a certain degree of OCD.

The new system doesn't have any centralized stats tracking. Instead, a tracking service must connect to each game server individually and needs to know the port and password for it. By default, game servers do not allow connections for stats tracking.

For fun I ported Xonstats (the Xonotic stats tracking system) for Quake Live a couple months ago (when the old centralized stats data feed was still in place).
All that's needed to make it work with the new Quake Live is an "adapter" to convert the QL stats JSON to the simple Xonotic match summary report text format.

I'm not a web dev and don't really have the time to maintain a project like this. But if anyone is interested, I'll help to set it up and hand it over.

Cool stuff. Hope to see someone appropriate stepping up.

About team elo, I would agree it's probably sloppy, but still did a very good service on CA servers. Elo shuffle would create balanced teams remarkably well. Without it it's really shitty.

do the servers allow plugins that will enable a shuffle using the new stats? seems non-trivial to get working.

I haven't looked into the old bots, but why would it be more complicated now? They were reading qlranks data anyways.

Mino already created a new minoqlx admin bot, which hooks directly into the linux dedicated server.

Even with less intrusive methods it's easier than before. Console text can be listend to using the RCON zmq port and when the script sees someone say "!shuffle", it can send all the necessary commands to the server to implement a custom shuffle.

Agreed on the shuffle. Although ELO caused headaches because of various reasons as well as people caring super ultra most important aspect of their life about having high elo, I'd still prefer to play with it. Games aren't balanced for shit anymore, and ELO balanced games with the server owner bot's on the server fixing teams made for usually 10-7 or closer every game in CA. Now Im either winning 10-1 or losing 10-1.

Totally agree that not all servers should be ranked to be able to fool around.

The 2 cons with duel ELO I noticed are: 1) when a player does not play for a long time - his ELO does not degrade 2) a lot of newcomers face a player with actual 1200-1400 ELO, starting should be around 1000.

Team modes rankings that are used on pickup channels are better, than ELO as I noticed

Xonstats uses "Elo decay". If you are inactive for a while, you start losing a few points every day past that allowed idle period.

quek will die without elo and balanced teams in teammodes

amen

How's this? Every player is given a rating based on the things I mentioned before. That rating is used to work out the skill rating of the server/teams. The skill rating or the server is not displayed until teams are at least 3v3. That way, you will eventually figure out what kind of level will give you the best game, but your own exact skill rating will not be known to you. Players ratings are not displayed. Only that of the server. Of course, that's for team games only. For duel....Why not just post your win/loss record against the opponent, or give the server a rating based on that record? If you've never played him before, put a question mark. That would take away the ego thing of having an actual rating, it would let you know if you're going to be playing a mis-matched game or a tight contest, and it would keep the mystery when you play a new opponent. For the people who just have to know....I'm sure they could figure out how to measure their skill rating, which would lead to them trying phony Middle Eastern exercises where they tug on it for hours, or ads on web-pages for ways to make it bigger using some ancient herb or such new age bullshit.

Despite the tier removal, I've yet to see a newb flamed/kicked for lack of skill. People lose instead of quitting. No one really cares when a 5v4 emerges, etc.

The public games are less of a serious business than before and it's more pleasant so I'm in no hurry to see the comeback of a precise public rating and all its subsequent madness. If anything it should be made by id, stay kinda private like skillrating was, and implemented with two new cvars for hosts, g_minimumskillrating and g_maximumskillrating, but it's too late for that I suppose.

Are you for real? I see it every day I play.

Gouken: leave plz nobhead
Gouken: kick newb plz
Gouken: what is this fag doing
Gouken: fu scrub go fuck urself

I saw him kicking beginners as well - or at least trying to kick them.

I'll always give them some time, trying to educate them (in a good manner). The next step is me screaming at the monitor while re-explain myself in capital letters (still trying to get the best out of it), but if no change has been made, the votekick must come out.

I'd say I’m a reasonable guy. \:D/

Tis fine, I won't deny that I seldom rage at beginners as well.

It's just tedious to do something that benefits the whole team and then some asshole is staring at the floor figuring out how to change weapons.

It's easy to judge people when they're losing :)

Kicking people ruining the game? Oh god, how can anyone act like that?! Such travesty!

But how did people become good before LELo and ranked servers? By playing gud players.

In fact, we are ruining the game when we try to make pub servers competitive.

If you want a balanced, fair and competitive oriented match, join #qlpickup or get a clanwar going.

I think we, as a community are spoiled by LELO and take even the most redundant pub matches seriously.

It's not the new players, it's the new players not listening that enrages me. Yeah I play there but sometimes you don't have time for pickup games and just want a fast one before you’re out the door and then some Russian fucknut, not able to even understand the most simple concepts has to ruin my mood. But w/e.

lol, how can someone even be like that

Kicking people ruining the game? Oh god, how can anyone act like that?! Such travesty!

:DDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Backstabber!

"We loved QLRanks and learned to live with it"
speak for yourself

If it is possible for a new tracking system to be incorporated using steamid, then the vast majority of those registered for elo will be unique players.

Sneak peek at qlstats.net pre-early- access-alpha v0.0.1.

I'm not yet scrubbing any data, just to get something in the database to show. It includes aborted matches and practice data. It will be all wiped at some later time.

Elo and Ranking are not visible yet, those require a minimum number of matches per player.

So, if anyone wants to take it over... I'm happy to get rid of it :)

Out of curiosity, what language is this written in?

edit:
nevermind, it's coded in python for anyone that is curious.

Correct, xonstats is in python.
The ZMQ-JSON-to-HTTP-POST adapter is written in nodejs.
The database is PostgreSQL.

I like having weapon accuracy for each weapon tracked on a graph, but maybe not with individual games on the x axis. Maybe days/weeks/whatever. Or maybe the option to switch between games and time as the x axis. Or both at the same time.
Not everyone can just play for fun. For some of us, it's nice to have goals and targets AND have fun. Me, I'm trying to improve my lousy LG in anticipation of it returning to 7 damage some day.

In Xonstats the graph respectively the damage stats are showing the last 20 games. So basically you can only watch your recent shape.
It's possible to switch from "Overall" to the different gamemodes (click the icons on top) and check your stats in these gamemodes.
Example: http://stats.xonotic.org/player/21

Can I ask that you are selective of who you give it to? It's a lot of power :s

It's not an easy task to choose 1 amongst the 0 people having any interest in it :)

Not bad at all... maybe light theme option + a little tweaking and it's good to go. Good base, I like it. Cheers! :)

It's nice to see this thing getting attention.

I'd like to remind everyone that we're in early development and as such there will be a lot of changes.

I agree that ELO isn't a perfect fit for team-based games and it's something we're looking into improving from past our past experiences.

Right now my focus is to get project into a state where it's easy to maintain and continue development on, and hopefully move it into a more Open Source direction. One of my goal is to have allow the community to help out as much as possible by Open Sourcing the code.

Getting ELO's up and running for duels is one of my primary goals right now, currently it's IMHO just a hack that needs a bit of improvement in terms of code quality but also tweaking the ELO settings.

With all of this said I'd like to call on the community to reach out to me if they have any suggestions on improvements or want to help out in any way. Please feel free to drop by #topdog.io, fork the github repo's or send me an email, [email protected]

nice and gl!

I am awaiting the elo system. Fuck anyone who disagrees with it, it's so convenient and practical that I see no point in discussing anything about it. I'll just say this, it allows custom player made tiers that substitutes for the lack of matchmaking. No noobs with no elo aren't going to out-whine this.

gl with this project.

btw, my first post since 06' ;)

if really all you want is "tiers", then I suggest a simple approach:
- put the password "tier4" on the server
- put the text "pwd: tier4" in the server name
- put a tag "tier4" into sv_tags

nobody will stumble accidentally on the server.
any everyone who knows what "tier4" means, can join.

hello men, it is me paddy. we need to no what is happern to it and why it is gone, we are lost an my men in my clan (king) (we are all king) can not bee seen anymore when we nee dit.

yes we will like some elo to but if we canot play it we canot have it.

lol

king best of all times wot u expect m8?

PADDY! it is me sya_, me an 1ee ave been doing it on teh steam. Add me on steam an we can do it together (as king)

http://steamcommunity.com/id/sya_

WE ARE KING

this is cute

Cutest of all times wot u expect m8?

it is me sya I have regeisterd on hear to take to u! I have not got my pc for long tie i have new 1. when I ciome back everythin is change (quaklive.com) I need to got my steam acc back it is on my pc I seel to another man I have messed up i don't write my passwords down :( my son keep tellin me. if i have to make a new steam i will but i will try got mine back 1st.

we will see what i hope u are doin good and are still showing men how to kneel before u on quake with lee (king). i hope cav is still ok after is leg vanish an gandim is still able to move is finger(are king pianist hehe) also i bet thaqt mad woman yakoumo is still wigglin her bottom on are server pretendin to be a man when i return she will got excited an set her vibrater to full until her teeth fall out then she will no we are king.

QLRanks provided a useful service, and I fully support a new implementation of elo, with the following considerations:

1. Aliasing should no longer be considered a problem.
QLRanks had no system to prevent a player's aliases from filling up multiple ranking-slots, i.e. it was entirely possible for one player to represent a country's Top-20 duelers. Unique Steam identification numbers now prevent that sort of result.
Additionally, with Quake Live now having a price-tag of $9.99 U.S.D. we can expect a decline in the creation of new accounts for the purpose of aliasing, but those that continue to alias with this method should not be discouraged as they are now directly contributing to Quake Live's profitability.

2. Artificial Elo Cultivation:
Some players would artificially cultivate elo, and this would lead to ranking-misrepresentation. E.g. Player A achieves standing 8 in country X's Top-20 Duelers, but refuses then to play anyone of a similar elo, whilst playing players significantly below his ranking to maintain that standing for as long as possible. Not only is player A being misrepresented in the rankings, he's failing to contribute to the "elo-economy" by refusing to play like-ranked players, making it harder for other players to improve their rankings. For this reason elo should begin to degrade if the player has not played another player of similar elo for Y amount of time.

3. Quickly, some other recommendations.
i. Inactive accounts should be hidden from current rankings.
ii. A player's elo should be per-map, with the average representing a player's ranking.
iii. Visible rankings should not be updated instantly, but weekly.
iv. Individual elo ratings should be hidden in team-modes, and only a team's average displayed.
v. Only teams should be ranked in team-modes.

Elo allows organizers and server administrators to create fairer matches and tournaments. If your ego is disturbed in some way or another by elo then that's your problem. If you couldn't care less about elo, support it anywhere, because then you'll get the benefit of less lop-sided match ups, and more exciting games.

^ THIS

(especially the team part: v. Only teams should be ranked in team-modes.)

There is such a thing as public matches even in team modes though.

I'd rather the game have a built in ladder than any form of elo. Progress over ego

however does a good elo implementation, I will paypal for sure

iii. Visible rankings should not be updated instantly, but weekly.

for non subscribers? :D

btw, good points

Is it possible to connect steam id's to elo? All servers running through steam report the stats to steam no? Though I give two fucks about my own elo and it was irritating how much emphasis people put on their own elo like it mattered, I do miss it for balancing games. I have played more rape games since this steam release than I have in the past couple years on servers with elo balancing. Getting pretty boring / frustrating.

the new databases use the player's steam-id to store the results.
servers however do not send anything to steam.
your game client receives some stats data and stores it locally on your hard disk. but that is easy to tamper with and useless for any stats tracking system.

The only reliable data is what a stats tracker pulls directly from a game server's stats port ... if it has access to it.

EDIT: wrong thread, and solved it already
k thanks bye

What do I do to fix this thing?

https://youtu.be/OdVs5T9xUF8

There's that missing texture square everytime when hitting the other player.
Using this is dm_91 demo with wolfcam11test11 if that's of any relevance.

How you fixed that?

Just updated to test13

Ca a once enjoyable game mode turned thx to elo into a big pile of shit.
Other than that elo is fine as long as win/loss is the only deciding factor.

Can you expand your thoughts?

Elo makes me happy when I win ,elo makes me mad when I lose even more.Elo makes me not to enjoy quake because I cant enjoy strafes and fuck up fights. Fake players abusing elo of regular players. I hate elo . THE END

Can guarantee a hell of a lot less fakers at $10 an account.

elo will be tied to Steam id, simply no other way to do it with names changing any time.

You forgot people refusing to learn new maps because they don't want to lose elo in the process and people not wanting to play those 200-300 elo bellow them because of high potential loss. Fuck elo

This applies only to duel.

This aspect of it is cancer to duel mosty, yes

Players are too butt-hurt about their own elo, but elo is good.

/thread

Fuck elo you +b weak ass bitch whores

Hallelujah.

Havent downloaded new ql yet Ŋ\_(ツ)_/Ŋ

I crapped on that elo issue so much and so many times it must've looked like a mountain of shit.

Honestly, do ANY matchmaking exist now?
We used to call elo names in old QL but at the very least there was some kind of tool to balance teams and at least attempt to block higher levels from massacring the lower ones...I know how tier slummers worked and how they downgraded their elo to be able to terrorize lower tiers or how they made alts. Still, there was SOME kind of tool for grading players.

Right now? IMHO it is absent. I's both good and bad.
Good thing is, no one cares for slummers and winjoiners since it's entirely pointless.
On the other hand, matches can get extremely unbalanced. Add to this an issue of multiple nicks. Shore, alts are largely gone in terms of ACCOUNTS, but not nicks. A known frogface moronic dunderheaded knobhead fuckerbutt triple-sodomized anal prospector can change his ingame name. So you can play a game against names like "BubbaHarry" or "asron" or whatever and get squashed in unbalanced game against some well known stackers/winjoiners without even knowing it. Great.

Elo should be back in QL, but only as a hidden feature. No more ranks. This entire ranking system became a bane of this community where when you had a bad day and played on a bot managed server some moron would do !elo<playername> and comment that he had better elo than you hence you suck etc. That was pretty funny and many times such players boasting about their elos got knucklefucked back and forth. Still it was a tool for morons to boost their ego, create unhealthy atmosphere on server and whatnot.

Players should not know their elo nor be able to manipulate it. The ranking system should be transparent. Everything else will be a return of all old QL-related ELO issues.

It's funny how much hate ELO rankings get in the quake community. Naked ELO or variants of it that are essentially the same (tiers+rankings in them and the like) are standard in the most popular esports now.

Maybe what we need is to stop being luddites and ask for unranked games instead of trying to destroy ranking systems.

Rankings rep playing strength with a number
Elo systems rep playing strength with a number
Nabs dont understand numbers, but I try to explain it for you as simply as possible because I'm benevolent and kind.
.
Nab = low rank low elo

no escape

gets abused anyway

nobody wants to hear your pain except other nabs

solution

stop being nab

Hiding elo =
Teams shuffled
1.1200 player + 1900 +1900
2.1800 + 1800 +1800

Team 2 rapes team 1,
possibilities :
around 7-2 nab gets kicked he is clearly not on level game over essentially
or nab gets f2 to kickvote from team 2 because they wanna win: , one or both 1900 player quits
Game is shit for everyone except nab, he doesn't understand anything.

Showing elo:
1.1200 player + 1900 +1900
2.1800 + 1800 +1800

possibilities:

nab gets kicked right away

Life is grand justice is served

nab cries on forums about elo

!

tl;dr: Never go full nab.

is sad story for nab

Anon speaks truth.

The mistake happened when you played with people who take CA seriously.

First of all, I think we need both, a skillsystem for balanced teams and a seperate! ELO system.(The elo system not as neccesary as the skillsystem)

It doesnt make any sense if you gain/loose in public games, only in TOURNAMENTS elo should be counted, not every stupid public game. Thats the way it works in professionell chess.

Skillsystem is needed for shuffling.

And in 30 days there wont be any data left on qlranks, if you dont remember after 30 days youre counted as inactive.

So Qlranks is dead anyways, take your last chances to make a screenshot if you had decent statistics. haha

Dunno if im double posting, no time to read all the comments above.

ufo/rasta

Or how about we just have elo like we used to have and ignore the insecure noob-whining about their own elo.

No no no,

I think criticizing the old elo system is right.

The game was dying, right? So we need to improve.

The elo system we used to have caused many problems, most ppl

agreed so we need to change.

We cant go for the opinion of minors anymore, Tripleeight.

But seems to me like youre just one more not-understanding-

esr-troll.

chave nice day

rasta

Im sry I may have insulted you in my previous post, but really 90 percent of the community are egoistic and thinking illogical, thats the sad truth, and that gets me mad.

I wish the ppl/users would prove me wrong one day...

rasta

Quake has been dying since 99, players have been blaming their lack of skill for the settings they are using since 99, players have butt-hurt about their own performance since 99. No wonder average player can't handle a goddamn number, because they are self-conscious about their flaws within a virtual world.

I hardly call that a problem, so stop whining.

I heard from several sources that ELO comes back within 3 weeks?

http://qlstats.net:8080/

;)

Can't find my name.

it's on only on certain servers(ranked is presented in their name). Also it takes one-two days after your first duel on such server.

78 here again. Funny someone came up with chess.
I played chess on the internet, got1700 elo a number that is maybe stronger than the ql equivalent. Basically on public nobody touches you, usually the starting rating is 1k and some ppl dive under it.
Now im gonna proceed to explain how useful is playing unranked chess.
Imagine the lowest life form on earth giving a very lousy blowjob to you, then
Quits before mate
Accuses you with cheating
Waits until the time goes down then quits while you sit for minutes gazing at the screen
Offering draws every 3second in a soon to be mate situation until Time is up or your patience
Various insults ,fu,etc while playing, the classics "you have no life outside of chess " "im sure you are still virgin" "if i had played that many games like you i would be a grandmaster" lastly
using computer assistance and suddenly a 3000 elo comeback while a queen and rook down
So yea, unranked no elo game and surprise ppl still don't like to lose. I agree some servers could stay unranked, but then again you will be raped regardless. The basic problem with nabs that they dont respect the game, they dont check their ego as memento mori said.If a good player in ql beats my ass 30 0 Im glad, I respect his skill and I know he is wasting his time with me. Usually i ask questions to educate myself.Nabs go to forums and accuse the rating system, the lightning gun damage, rocket is too fast, rail is too accurate and so on. They try to play a competitive game with a competitive ego without competitive skills.
And this happens in every game god created that has pvp.
Color me unimpressed.

the last week was my most enjoyed in ql. one of the best improvements the last update brought was that the elo shit ended.
people just played the game and their statistics remained private.


but now i have to read that the sexless nerds want to bring that elo nonsense back?
the comments of the elo supporters just show that they don`t understand what elo means and how desperately they need to find online acceptance, because they lack it in real life.

elo is for competitive tournament results ONLY, and not for random public games.
it doesn`t rate the skillset in terms of timing, movement, aim and tactic, it just rates the likelihood of win/loss.

elo didnīt help the matchmaking, it got heavily abused to tierslum the shit out of weaker players.
someone connects, the first thing he does is to check your elo while the chat bubble is floating above his head for 10 seconds, then without saying anything he disconnects when you are stronger or instantly readies up when you are weaker.
i once waited 3 minutes on k1llsenīs empty server, the first idiot that connected, told me that my elo is too high and demanded that i disconnect. matchmaking over 9000.

and then all the idiots that during games kicked players to save their own elo.
you think this will stop, now that anybody can spawn servers and kick players?
will it be easy to stay away from them, now that you canīt see the server owner in the game browser and anybody can change his nickname?

also in teamgames elo didnīt help the matchmaking.
have you forgotten how komap-antflag winjoined thousands of games to get on top of qlranks in 3 modes?
elo just delays the game start.
before most teamgames, i had to endure up to 10 minutes of elo-shuffles being equal to a single elo-point, until the players found a combination that grants them an easy win by pairing their strongest opponent with 3-4 useless teammates.

if elo was so good, why so many asked to blindly track the values and overlay them with tiers?
i donīt want the need to check everytime if the server is unranked, just so i can stay out of this crap.
what advantage you hope for, that baksteen can again spy map stats?
i want my stats to stay private like they are now without public access. that's none of your damn business what maps, modes and weapons i like.
why donīt you make this rating system only for those who are so naive to like it? let them register to your 'service' in order to get tracked, but let the players that didnīt even ask for this shit untracked.

That's the thing. Many people here are going all "hurr durr if you don't like it ur a fag who has issues, deal with it, lulz" but it wouldn't actually matter if it was just a case of people not being able to "handle it". The real problem (which a surprising amount of people here are completely overlooking) is the undeniable fact that many of the players who "can't handle it" actually ruin games and abort matches because of it, just like you described, which fucks up the game for everyone, whether you care about Elo or not.

It all comes down to the obsession with the number, which changes with each match. By switching to a tier-based system, the number will be more consistent over time, making people less anal about it. Tiers have been the industry standard for a while now and any game which is even remotely relevant has a propa tier system or equivalent. Except for QL ofc. Syncerror and sponge's "4-tier solution" and early deprioritization and eventual abandonment of any match-making initiative was a heartwarming example of how absolutely fucking clueless about quake they are, or the gaming industry in general for that matter.

But it didn't start with elo, it started from day one when kill/death and win/loss ratios were visible, and to a lesser degree the accuracy too. This wasn't really noticeable in duel back then... but it sure as fuck was noticeable in pub CTF and CA servers with all the tierslumming teamstacking statpadding kankerdicks fucking up every server they cast their sad gaze upon, all because of those little numbers on their profile.

A great example of how people get obsessed with the number occured in #tdmpickup where your average conversation looked like this:

!rating
!rating
!rating
!rating
!rating
!rating
!rating
!rating
!rating
!rating

And it wasn't just a handful, it was literally everyone. Thankfully pickup follows strict rules so ruining games is instantly punished in most cases... but it's still an obvious sign that something is fundamentally wrong using a publically visible exact-value skill-rating system... and shows just how many people can't "handle it".

The tdmpickup rating system was awesome and provided excellent team balancing imo, but the ratings themselves should have been hidden. The #qlranks channel had people !updating their elo after every single duel and throwing tantrums if the bot was offline before automatic crawling started. Problemos anales?

One solution I've been thinking about which would allow us to keep the actual Elo number but prevent people getting obsessed about it would be to only update the number at the end of each month, and just leave it silently tracking elo in the background. It would be interesting to see how people would react to this. That said I'd still just prefer a propa tier system. Well propa.

Both of you. Such dramatization, everyone and everywhere, aborting matches far and beyond, there and here, everyone is so obsessed and absolutely fixated on the number... please. You can probably buy the masses here on ESR with that, but anyone with a half-brain will see past this shit. So, when I drop your fine, subjective literature with a nature of Mexican soap operas, we are down to just a couple of notions.

I myself have played mainly CA, team-game or game-type which involves multiple players and most of this nonsense you are talking about is simply not present at the level you are trying to present.

It doesn't matter if the players see the statistics or not. I guess you probably haven't played any of the major MOBAS where the system you are talking about are in place. It's no different, players can't handle the loss, because they won't get out of their silver rank anytime soon, so they afk, leave, troll games and are being psychotically insulting. Whether it is hidden or not, it can be manipulated with. We can hide elo, but aborting matches will still impact it. Bottom line is, there is no system which can't be manipulated, it's being done everywhere.

First link from google about LOL, I know from experience, but looks like you need to read more about it.

Usually me and my irl friend lose games on purpose so our elo dont climb up more than 1200. Is that trolling or is it ok to manipulate the fail elo calculations of the league?

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/sh...?t=1784044
(ignore the raw elo talk, in LOL players don't see their actual ELO, they use some websites which are inaccurate and just assumptions of the system based on some rudimentary statistics available to the player, but the principle behind the manipulation is clear, the same tier-slumming and all that shit you are talking about is present there)

Quake in general hasn't ever been a very social game, its start with a "Hi" and ends with a "GG" for most players, from the looks of it you are somehow bothered that players seem eager to keep track of their stats. So what if they keep spamming !rating every single match? Does it really bother you that much, maybe you can't handle the chat? Do you really believe players wont start a conversation because there's a number to check?

So much whining in these threads, it rustles my jimmies that players can't handle the feels of a number and want to complicate everything. I like how it was before, it was simple and good. Players make their own tiers and keep track of their stats as they fucking please.

MOBAS

GTFO!

summary of your reply:
bla bla bla.
mexican soap opera.
bla bla bla.
i play lolca.
bla bla bla.
i also play league of legends.
bla bla bla.
'First link from google about LOL, I know from experience, but looks like you need to read more about it.' - as if i waste my time with LoL, lol.
bla bla bla.
quake in general never was social, let them spam !rating, maybe you can`t handle the chat, quake will remain not social even when players wouldn`t check elo.
bla bla bla.
you complicate everything, i like how it was before, with an external rating system, 3rd party tools and an abused matchmaking.



my favorite part from your post is this:

'Both of you. Such dramatization, everyone and everywhere, aborting matches far and beyond, there and here, everyone is so obsessed and absolutely fixated on the number... please. You can probably buy the masses here on ESR with that, but anyone with a half-brain will see past this shit.'

and then out of a sudden, you explain how loLoLers are so obsessed with elo, that they reconstructed it from tiers and abused it to tierslum.
please, you can probably buy the loLoLers there with that, but anyone with a 0-brain will see past this shit.
are you aware, that you didn`t present any argument for elo, but instead even delivered another argument against a ranking?



i wrote:

'i want my stats to stay private like they are now without public access. that`s none of your damn business what maps, modes and weapons i like.'

and then you wrote:

'Players make their own tiers and keep track of their stats as they fucking please.'

do you see the discrepancy?



in this thread (comment 112 and 128) you want to convince people that elo opposers care too much and are insecure noobs, while scrolling through this thread, shows 8 obsessed posts from you 1512-elo-noob.
but i can`t recall that you gave a single argument for elo. instead you totally obsessed spammed your subjective opinion and pointless flames.
i wrote a lot of arguments against elo and backed them up with facts every experienced quaker can confirm, you didn`t address any of those points.
that is why i rate your relevance 0/10 and don`t wish to further waste my time on a pointless loLoLer.

I gave a fine example of how players are more fixated on the manipulation of success rather than the number itself, irrelevant if it's hidden or not. My main point wasn't my subjective observation, I just hate when players over-exaggerate to receive an appeal for their own ideas, if the provided concepts were any good, that kind of appeal wouldn't be necessary to shed light on them.

Statistics make the game a much more competitive environment in any case. My argument is that hiding the statistics won't the solve the problem, my whole argument is centered around the number itself (hiding it behind rankings, tiers or hiding it at all doesn't serve any greater purpose as long as the statistics are present and they can be manipulated). I rather have the freedom to view the success of a player at will, precisely and urge the players to take the game in moderation instead of trying to control their emotions via artificial constructs around a simple number.

So, please stop trying to bend my words and ideas if you haven't understood them, neither attacking my authority will work. I don't even play duel, nor I care very much about my statistics, though I do like to keep track of them and take in moderation the game which you and a lot other players here aren't capable of it seems. If you really weren't so insecure about your own elo, then you wouldn't have any problem that I can check it at any moment, which you just did and I absolutely don't care, but you sure do a hell of a lot more than me since you bothered the effort trying to degrade me with a number.

I don't see a valid argument for hiding/eliminating elo, I think players just can't stomach that they can't play a particular server (too low elo most of the time), can't stomach the feeling that they aren't the top of the world, because that's the only true dislike I've seen about elo ingame. Oh they also can't stomach that players have an objective statistical value to determine whether they want to play with a particular player, that's how players make their own tiers(with visible elo) and have balanced, quality matches, or at least increase the chance of them.

This is freedom of choice, fuck anyone who wanna take it away.

so players are fixated on manipulating statistics and that is why we need elo?
you complain about exaggeration to appeal own ideas, after you called every elo opposer an insecure noob whiner?

you want more precise and accessible statistics, because you call it a 'problem' that players manipulate them?

indeed i haven`t understood your ideas, i`m afraid nobody did.
what kind of authority you have, when you obsessively demand elo while you don`t play duel but instead lolca and loLoL?
so i am insecure because it is none of your business how i play?
why you whine that i laughed at your public accessible low noob elo?

you can`t see a valid argument against elo, but yet you deliver 2 in the same sentence?

you want me to fuck you, because you want to take away my freedom of choice, which was choosing to stay untracked?

it makes me sick.
all the problems elo caused are gone and we are about to bring them back, because some random casuals from lolca/loLoL spam without arguments demanding competitive rankings.
you are so obsessed with elo, you should consult an exorcist.

I agree with the points you made

Tdmpickup has a weird climate. rarely anyone chatting. But that's rly not cuz of elo. It's the irc client, maybe the demographic idk. It definately is not the rating function. Also players don't get pissed as much there, since they are once again mostly grown ups.

I also think players in pickups are rather indifferent about losing or winning. Of course winning feels better but it's not like they type 'gg' if they win and refuse to if they don't. in fact the only thing one does is alt-tab and type !a

My pickup anecdote was just to illustrate out how easily people get obsessed with a number, in a persistent state of checking if the last match finally elevated them fro 19.97 to 20.00 or whatever, because it's that number, that milestone which means everything, and not what the number actually represents (a skill estimate, which could perfectly be represented by tiers).

Thankfully pickup has enough safeguards in place to keep the side-effects of this number obsession to a minimum, so it wasn't actually harmful, and people's primary reason for playing pickups was to have fun anyway, something which could not be said for other gametypes. Whether it was pub CTF in the first few years of QL or duel since QLranks went live... you can't deny that there were people who only cared about their precious number and would ruin games because of it. And it was more than just a handful.

Unfortunately tripleight has just been playing lolca for a while so no wonder he is confused by all this "drama".

Pub-ctf has always been populated by the worst team-stackers, win joiners and stat-padders from the very start of ql. But that was way before qlranks. Which number was it that they were so obsessed about back then? w/l ratio, accuracies?

Do you propose to replace every number by a rank, so noone will get obsessed by numbers and therefore stop stat-padding?

It was indeed W/L and K/D ratios for early CTF.

I have only proposed replacing ratings with a rank. As for W/L and K/D ratios... I'd propose removing the actual ratio altogether on the public profile and just showing Wins and Kills milestones (or what kids these days call achievements) but I'm still undecided, as I believe it's not really relevant any more. What does a public QL profile look like these days? (I haven't played since steam migration, and dont have steam)

The biggest issue with the old implementation of elo/ranking was that every single server without exception were concidered to be ranked.

Now we have the option to split the servers somewhat and give both players and server admins a choice.
It also opens up the door for other kinds of point collection that could quite possibly be more casual friendly.


In the end though.. if you dont like elo or other kinds of ranking... then dont play on ranked servers.

No one is forcing you anymore.

before most teamgames, i had to endure up to 10 minutes of elo-shuffles being equal to a single elo-point, until the players found a combination that grants them an easy win by pairing their strongest opponent with 3-4 useless teammates.

10 minutes? How cute.
Try public ctf, 20 minutes of warmup shuffling, right before xtina ragequits during countdown.

Dear Guys below,

Youre definately right about the ego thing.

So we could agree its not the elo-systems fault, but rather that of players, or I should say the anonymity of the internet.

In real world chess f.e. people cant behave like that.

Yes we're playing an online game, I know.

That might be the problem

rasta

Fuck elo. I came to the EU. Played some CA. The fuckers set my ELO to 1601, because I had a few good rounds. Then I can no longer play on those active servers. And the next active servers are 1800+, get kicked on them too because my elo was like 1550. Dafuq. Played some 1v1, but too much effort after a long day of work. :((((

Back home, 900 elo and 2000 elo players play together and everyone has a great time. EU even silly CA is serious business. And don't even think of joining when to make it 8v9 even if team you joining are 1-6 behind.

Ended up playing against bots and installing Age of Empires 2.

"Ended up playing against bots and installing Age of Empires 2."

Exactly what you should have done.

Thank you for sharing your journey in nabland I think everyone can learn a lot from this cautionary tale.
Reminds me to one of my associates back in 2001 who did speak English very poorly and played a whole night with q3 bots while high on weed. The day after he said he made friends on the internet, one of them has a nick sarge other is doom. He connected to an ffa server that had placeholder bots and he had a time of his life.
Stay offline forever

[+] for the story.

ahahah

http://www.qlranks.com/duel/player/rapha

All you need to know about elo.

=))))

got it

..

poor rapha.... he was sitting on a 197 win streak with the last 32 games giving him only 2 elo... no wonder why he gets bored of playing, he has no opposition...

Avg. Loss Opponent Elo 2468

yeah i'd probably be bored too.

A life before matchmaking is kind of like a life before cellphones.

We got by just fine!

Great analogy - it's similar and proves that even though it's possible to live without cellphones, it doesn't hurt having one right now.

Actually, the benefits are out-weighting the negative side-effects of not having a cell phone.

Okay...maybe it's time for some kind of rating system. We got rando-ass maps getting voted that are clearly not a good layout for team games, we got loads of 10v10 servers, and half the esrvers with normal team sizes are still filled with guys who hide and expect to pick up easy frags off their teammates hard work, or guys who fill the place with a sea of nadespam just because that's what they did in Tier 2. I'd think this sucked anyway, but I've kept track, and the damn hiders end up on my team 80% of the time. Spammers are evenly distributed. Enemy nade-spammers aren't that annoying, since all they do is fill a door way with nades whil you stand there and look at it from a safe distance. But the TEAM nade spam..trying to aim when you're being bounced all over the place by teammates shooting nades at parts of the map where there are clearly no enemy..WTF? Did they get their first frag that way, and just stuck with it, happy for the occasional 1 or 2 frags over the course of 10 rounds? Do they think it's funny? Do they enjoy playing that way? I dunno. But playing a CA server now feels like when you catch a bus at about 8:30 in the morning and it's full of school kids.