That doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a waste of time when compared to other things. Every activity has some benefit one way or another, but doesn't imply it's optimal.

For example real life sports most likely are better for your mind and body than quake is, or of course studying itself is way better.

If you enjoy them, they're not a waste of time.

Sports are better for your body, but it isn't guaranteed they're better for your mind. Obviously, they work spatial skills and such, but doesn't Quake do a lot of that too? The benefits for video games can include in some cases, like with DM games, having A LOT to think about constantly, whereas in many disciplines you may have fewer things to think about. Lots of dead space.

I don't agree about studying especially. It may be better for your career, but rote memorization has been shown to have a lot less correlation with intellingece as compared to associative learning, so I wouldn't be so sure it helps learning as much as a hard game would.

I know we both aren't talking about specific studies and stuff, but it's quite obvious studying math is way, way, way, way better for your mind than playing some first person shooter.

In that sense, geometry is way better than math.

Honestly I kinda disagree, I noticed that I've lost all my math knowledge because I haven't praciticed since I was what? 17 years old (I'm 28 now). But my "logic skill" is in so good shape as I have done an exam this weekend and by logic I have had a good score in so many math questions only because my "logic" is in good shape. Quake also improves logic same as Chess for example. I'm not saying math doens't improve logic, I'm saying that there is no "right and wrong" way of learning, otherwise we as humans wouldn't reach so good knowledges in sciences like: physics, geometry, human society(sociology) and so on.

edit: To ensure it, a good example is: by dividing all things from atom till the endless particles (universe is made by fractals it is infinite large and infinite small) you won't find the "god particle", this is stupid. To control the knowledge of "gravitation" which is one of the most misteries still today about the universe you have to have another mindset because dividing you won't reach anything. So this is all logical, others thinkers have thought about it about 1500 years ago so far and none of our current scientists at all have thought in this way, why? because most of them only learn math and physics, they don't learn other skills that would "complement" their studies. One can argue in the opposite way but if you are really honest to yourself you will realize that this is the way out that the evolutionary constant that guides us to. (Remember, the "father" of sociology once was a philosopher than later he "aufheben" it to a academic knowledge)

Some things are indeed better than others though. Playing a real instrument is way better in every way than playing guitar hero, plus it's an actual useful skill to learn.

Like....if you asked cooller what he would have preferred, any day he would prefer being a pro real life athlete than a cyber athlete.

Yeah I agree I still have so much to learn to "identify" these types of subjects in philosophy (like aesthetics, true beauty and so on). Also we have to be careful because somtimes we can be unfair to some cases.

Isnt it precisely because of the unimaginable stuff like 11dimensions that math can help to describe and understand in an abstract way, rather than having our limited imagination restrict us?

Wow that is exactly the otherway around, math that limit the way you see things, 11 dimensions is 7 times plus 4 dimensions, you need physics and geometry(or space geometry) to understand 3 and 4th dimensions, i think you are missing something here. :0

I am missing something for sure cuz my knowledge of this stuff doesnt go beyond those infotainment documentaries with the japanese professor :D but i think it is a valid point of view

Guessing "japanese professor" is pretty damn (I love your language because it is very accurate and at the same time it have so many words to describe one specific thing):

Prepotent, überwiegender, mächtigen, vererbungs. That was the translation of "prepotent" to your language.

Congratz!

Michio kaku is his name he is american.

anyway the way i understand it is that every theory you come up with is pure speculation until you can prove it or at least describe it with maths. where am i going wrong?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_geometry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension

^This is all connected.

Thus, dark matter is estimated to constitute 84.5% of the total matter in the universe, while dark energy plus dark matter constitute 95.1% of the total content of the universe.

You know, when Einstein came up with his most famous calculations? He noticed and others scholars have also noticed that there is a lack in his calculations to definte how to "see" the stars(astros, not only "stars itself" english have a lack of meaning in it) in the Universe. What was the percentage in this "lack" of calculations? Of all that we observe in the universe the only calculation that we can discribe has 95% of gap in it. You dont have to "speculate" it, you just have to ask the right people to tell you that.

Here I gave you some examples, I hope you enjoy it and do your own research.

Well, it may depend on the kind of math (whether it's associative learning, or it's formulae you don't understand, in which case it's probably useless). And depends what kind of gaming it is - if you're not improving, then obviously you're not thinking that much.

I'm not sure of the end result either way. How do you know DM isn't better? It's a 3d enviroinment. You're predicting where rockets will be sometime later. You're thinking over battle scenarios, deciding what weapon will lead you where in X time. Finally, you're prying into a mind of your oponent. These are areas math just doesn't touch. So if there are benefits to both, they're probably different.

Both provide different benefits, but if you are going to compare the exact same thing with the other, then lets go back to the first example, which was sports against cyber sports.

A real life sport is played in a real environment, so better than 3d, that against an opponent (or opponents) that's in front of you and in a discipline way more evolved skill-wise than any videogame, which is a way more complex battle scenario in every way.

Lets take mma for instance. That is way, way, way, way more complex and engaging than quake duel. Could be tennis or anything else.

Real sports have two advantages. First, they're in reality, so you can move every muscle in your body, milimeter by milimeter, instead of having X buttons. Second, you have competition and rewards for anyone in it, so a huge talent pool and ample motivation.

Hovewer, there's a reason so few sports are 1v1 - they can be pretty simplistic. Most sports only work in a team enviroinment. You can make games with rulesets that are more complex.

Some games are harder than sports in specific ways, I'm sure. Nobody would argue chess doesn't work your brain in a specific way more than anything else does. Or go. Those are examples of 'computer games' that already are maybe more complex mentally than most sports overall, and definitely more complex in specific ways (how much you can cram into your brain for chess).

The problem with today's games, they suck. Moba is 1 unit with 5 abilities, which is indeed a joke. Quake is great, but the problem with it is no playerbase, just the same guys putting in some time. But there will be games more complex than chess or go. One could say we had one. A game as complex as any other, with a playerbase of hundreds of professional players, and more hours per player put into it than even something like MMA. You might guess which game I mean :)

So I don't know if said game was more complex than a sport or not. Probably in some ways yes and in some ways no. But if esports doesn't fuck up and somehow forces people to play good games, I think we will get a game more mentally complex than sports, just because of the creativity virtual reality allows.

But does something like that exist today, a videogame with so many inputs and factors that has as much variables as a sport, or as the real life activity it tries to imitate?

Also some games happen to use lots of keys, but doesn't necessarily mean those matter in making it more complex. In starcraft what they do is just selecting units separately, but the input across all those 15 keys is one action. In quake there's los of keys too but the actions involved and possibilities in shooting are way less than in hitting someone.

idk, I think using a typewriter looking at a 2d surface is not as complex as what real life offers.

I agree that real life gives a lot of complexity in that way, as I said in regards to being able move every muscle. No game compares in a similar way.

However, imagine a game of football 1v1 . Naturally, it's about passing the opposing player. To do that, you learn dribbling tricks, that's skill (1), and you learn to read opponent's body's position in relation to your body, that's skill (2). This is what basically the complexity of IRL comes down to, in all sports. THis is the difference between a video game and a sport, the complexity of a human body.

But would you say this game is more complex than any video game? I for one wouldn't, as in video games, there are a lot of skills that are not present in this game.

Obviously, many sports will include the same skills video games require, and those skills will become somewhat harder because of the attachment of the (1) and (2) kind of skills IRL, but not infinitely so. You'll still be able to detach the other skills, and chances are, they may be more amply present in a video game.

I'd say that the brains to do what starcraft requires you to do include enough of skills not present in sports than you can call it more difficult in some ways. That's enough of a proof, along with chess and go, that video games can be as mentally complex, or even more so, than sports.

Playing a computer game is actually a real life activity. We have to use our body to play it and the fact that we just see the world we're interacting in through a small 2D window, only adds to the difficulty and is more demanding on the brain.

Well, I think his point still makes sense because there's very limited movement that allows you to move the mouse and click buttons. I just don't think this difference makes up for all the different skills in games and sports, so it doesn't make either automatically mentally harder or easier.

But there is the added dificulty in interfacing your brain to work with the keyboard and mouse though, that's a very good point. In games like starcraft, it is incredibly hard. In some ways similar, in some ways harder and in some ways easier than something like piloting a plane, or shoting guns, or bows, and the like.

You can also argue that you have limited movement while playing an instrument. :)

But I wasn't disagreeing with you, just pointing out that even though the mind believes it's in some virtual reality, we end up using the same faculties we have to deal with the "real reality".

It really doesn't matter what reality the mind is in, actually: https://hbr.org/2012/04/practicing-in-dreams-...mance/ar/1 ;)

Yeah, I've heard that practicing moves in imagination can be up to 80% as effective as practicing for real. And sports psychologists recommend that sort of thing to ensure performance, too. Cool stuff.

We arent talking about sports against esports tho. This is action videogames (casual plebs) against what could be done in that time, for mental improvement. Like...reading a book against playing pub cod in consoles, or tennis for fun vs 1200elo cake.

Secondly, of course every activity is beneficial for your #1 brane, unless it involves hitting yourself in the head all day, but what is more beneficial: halo or something that isn't playing halo and that isn't hitting yourself.
The whole point is if "not halo" is more beneficial than halo, then halo is hardly beneficial because everything else is more so.

then probably engagement > kind of activity, really

dont understimate quake ...
theres a lot to master from movement, to aim with different weapons, to timinig, to strategy, learning the map, learning to predict other players, teamplay, etc. ...
sports can benefit you physically in addition and can give you also real life contacts if they are not too individualistic ... but tbh. which of these sports like MMA, etc. are you really doing competetively when you are already in your 20s, truth is you just do it as compensation for your job/studiying with no real aims, just to get pleasure ... and is that 1 hour training two times a week really giving you enough ... ?
It's much easier to get competetive in quake than in any sport like MMA, Tennis, etc. ... the only sports I see coming close to get easily into competetively are endurance sports like running and cycling ...
but they are much more focused on the physical side of sports

Piloting a fightplane probably gives us also a "geometric" graph in our brains also, I like the way you compared things, definitely math sometimes doesn't reach these types of achievement.

I'd think Quake to be even more likely to improve learning capabilities. And other competitive games too, but from what I know if you learn many things at once you learn faster (I don't mean multitasking, I mean at once. Mutitasking sucks), so it'd make sense for Quake and other harder games to work this harder.

That depends though, of course. Even a single player game might be better if you're not improving or thinking much. In the end, it's about the effort you put in.

Any demanding activity will improve some capabilities in an individual. Adaptation is a natural thing.

Random Funny...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1psFJquU2Rw

^ Friendliest discussion I've seen on ESR in a while.

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in... okay, I can't do this.

die

nooooooo (this is so damn funny when you are "surrounded by it") conchatumadre!!!

rapha evil and cypher must be geniuses by now.

EG is recruiting QL players?

opieop

I'm pretty sure it retards more than its enlightens!

Here, baptize this specific part of your brain here and here in stimuli and just kinda forget about those other parts. K?

Wow those parts of your brain are showing improvement!