I'm trying to get excited for the game but it's hard. hitscan was always a problem before, it sounds like it's probably still a problem. The movement just doesn't feel fluid, and changing it would alienate a huge player base. I would be very surprised to see them do something other than dodging.

I don't get it though, I put thousands of hours back when I was younger into UT2k4 and it was so much fun. Going back now, the movement alone makes the game not very fun to play. Plus the damage rates of weapons has always been odd, some very OP shit. More cut-throat than Quake in that regard, but less fun in a casual sense (shock combo + extra dmg = bye 200/200 stack)

Also pick a good movement, then make maps. Don't make maps then say "we don't wanna change the movement and break the maps". I know it's Hypno talking but that's still the wrong outlook.

Maybe UT is an acquired taste or something. I don't know, I just don't get how I liked UT2k4 so much back in the day but now it's just not the same at all

I try to contribute but all I get is people (lots 99%) saying my prototypes are too much like Quake or Painkiller. Instantly shot down.
Fix a bug in a weapon, or build a new sound cue for an action like dodgeroll, commit it, gets totally ignored and the bug is left in, or the sound cue is some garbage that doesn't even have the same over all db levels.

I feel like an idiot for spending my money and TIME trying to help that community and then just get shit on by UT99 fanatics. And its not just me, pretty much anyone who contributes gets their ideas instantly shit on. Sad really. Can't even have an adult discussion without it breaking down to name calling and ad hominem.
Exampe: "You are a Quake player, what do you know about UT?"

I try to support ANY and ALL arena games, even ones I don't personally play, but EPIC and the UT community have all but driven me completely away. I will check in from time to time, but I think I'm pretty much done with "helping".

Here is one of my prototypes that will most likely not happen now.
:(


And

Those links are from UT2k4 or the so called "pre-Alpha-UT4" ?
Things are like the same!

UT4 PreAlpha.

(y)

Do you think they are similar ?

I think the issue is people demanding what they want

This game was kind of screwed from the start in regards to movement, it was either going to have UT99 movement or 2k4 movement, I couldn't see how either groups would give them up for a third one. If you leave gameplay decisions to the community, nothing new will be presented because this game is another sequel.

The only other option is to not listen to community and Epic give them what they think they want. I'm a firm believer in 'don't make what they want', because no one really knows what they want. they think they know what they want, but you could show them something completely new and they would change their perspective. kind of like “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” (quote by Henry Ford)

I think that's the reason Quake 4 sucked. If you would of asked everyone what they wanted Quake 4 to be, they would of said Quake 3 with better graphics, and I believe they got what they wanted. Quake 4 wasn't that different compared to how Q1 was different to Q2 and Q3.

I guess my point is you're screwed. With them making gameplay decisions open to the community, they pretty much guaranteed the movement to be UT99 or 2k4. There might be slight changes, but nothing drastic. Too many people will complain if it's anything other than the two movement sets, so any other suggestions is screwd

when i say to people here that they should see things in a different perspective i get trolled :)

I'm a firm believer in 'don't make what they want', because no one really knows what they want. they think they know what they want, but you could show them something completely new and they would change their perspective.

Yes, if I've learned anything from reading ESR the last few years, it's this.

So did sponge, apparently.

i like it. so much smoother looking but not super different.



make your own game.

make your own game

yes please

That actually looks pretty fun to me!

If UT4 had the movement you came up with in your prototypes then I would actually be excited for it.

I feel like an idiot for spending my money and TIME trying to help that community and then just get shit on by UT99 fanatics.

You probably feel like sponge and SyncError atm with Quake ;)

Never played UT but those videos look good to me, to be honest. Pity the community wasn't at least thankful for your effort.

i have the same opinion :/

Looks really good!

Yeah, I feel like if I could plus this comment to 120% (because that's what it deserves) the UT players would just say, look at these Quake fags and their faggy Quake movement. Despite the fact that this gives A) less hand cancer and B) smoother streamlined movement that doesn't frustrate every single jump. Oh and C) quicker+easier movement avoids cs like awp vs awp situations, to some extend.

I will probably still try some UT4. But that movement... It would just mean I will stick to casual FFA games for short periods of time to avoid getting my keyboard arm amputated. That is if I'm not playing some other shooter with superior movement (or maybe even drop shooters entirely..! na probably not)

This comment (like some other of that sort) is a bit "funny" tbh from Quake players, or by extent, quake community which is known to be the most hermetic bunch of ppl ever. As known as: "omgad rofldurp, iz no Q3, then it's so bullshiiiiet, it should die in fiah!!1!"

I will then, amalgam all the Quake players like some of you do with UT community: "You're all a bunch of whinyass cry-cry q3 noobs =) . Lets see how u welcome that.

You HAVE to fkn godamn understand that some stuffs in each game/franchise are emblematic. Like Shock rifle is to UT, or dodge for that matter. Things that would lead to denature a bit too much those very emblematic criteria will not be super welcomed, ofc, even though on paper, they add in term of smoothness or fluidity or whatever (there, its not the question). I would like to see how u would welcome UT dodge in quake, even though it would add more depth/dynamic in close combat, u would then reject it as much as possible ;) .

Once again, consciously or not, you forget some variable in the equation. Close combat. Lets say i react like you (thanks god i'm smart enough not to =) ...):
"Fkn quake(live) close combat and aircontrol give me fkn brain cancer... Only things u can do close combat wise, is 'on the ground' dodge and place here and there a jump or a crouch to vary a bit the pattern. THANKS god in UT, i can do all those things possible in quakelive but i can fast dash, walldodge, hammer jump, bootjump, dodge bootjump, wall dodge boot jump and so on and so forth, varying the fast pace combo of possible close range moves SO MUCH more than in quake. I'm 100% frustrated in each goddamn close combat and not to mention air control where u feel like a completly dead bag of bricks thrown in the air with no possibility to correct my trajectory or avoid a projectile.

So, yeah, stop being biased and understand that concepts hitting emblematic points of a franchise will less be welcomed if they bring too much changes. Also, a lot of us (more experienced and skilled ppl) deserted the forum tired a bit by the affluence of casuals wanting stupid things. You judge the whole community by them? Nice. I will them sum up the whole ESR's population with cmss, zhu, jameirio and daddy.

Thing is a smart concept of moves (created by Luau) was very well welcomed and praised (and still is) by lots of us:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUL3yeAIn0s

Adding such very clever moves (not all imo) that felt as if they ever existed (i passed quite some time testing the betas of this mutator ;) ). So stop amalgamating please. Also, open your eyes and your mind because that "hand/arm cancer giving movement mechanic" has been played by millions of fans since 1999 (and before) to this very day. Not so bad for a "cancer giving movement" based game :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) .

so dodgebounce kills the ut, and hand cancer is acceptable.

k.

So out of arguments, u deliberately make me say what i did not, just like you suggest a whole community say things they never did (a part =/= a whole) and u over simplify a problem by only seeing what u want to see (ye it's the principle of bias, yes)

k.

i didnt take your comment serious. its full of ut bias and getting braincancer by playing quake is retarded :p

quake movement is objectively better. its smoother, simpler and still its a game thats hard to master. i cant see the same old ut movement bring in loads of new people. it just feels choppy and awkward.

i played all the ut games casually (i started playing unreal+ut99 before q3!!) just because it was something different. but my opinion hasnt changed. dodgebounce is an excellent way to retain the ut feel and add smoothness to the movement. you can disagree with this and have your opinion, but dodgebounce really is the way i (and i believe a large amount of old/new players) would enjoy another unreal tournament game. all the while avoiding the copy pasta syndrome many game sequels have these days.

Just like getting "hand cancer " with Ut is full of bias with quake and is as equally retarded. It was the point of my reply about it, show the retardation in such generalization.

No it's not, if the frontier was so well established, everyone would play quake which is not the case. I think myself differently (notice i dont force my opinion down anyone throat like some of you).
Ut close movements offers more variety and patterns BUT i perfer quake movement for long distance fluid movement/travelling. For you, it might feels like this, i can understand but it obliviously does not to millions of ppl. For me it's a blatent case of spinach syndrom: i dont like spinach, so it's shit".

err...

this is getting too french for me.

huh well, it got "biased" way too long ago for me anyway :p .

Thanks for proving Funeral's point anyway.

Well at least dont make stuff up please.

I didnt say what he did was bad, or point me out where i did.

Actually re-read all of our convo, i never mentioned funeral once.
I answered you and your stupid "cancer giving movement in Ut".
I briefly tried to explain why making emblematic things from a franchise looking liek too much another emblematic things of another very known franchise would not very be welcomed by one of the community that would somehow understand it as a loss in identity (u still didnt answer about how you would react if Idsoftware would like to add a close range UTlike dodge)

Once again you state things out of the blue i never talked about directly, so huh, well nice try but no :(

Thanks for proving my points though(dismissing the parts that u dont want to answer and oversimplifying/generalizing).


o/

congrats, you dont get aching hands from double tapping keyboard keys a million times a day. which is obviously what i meant with that. i can guarantee you the choppy movement wont be the selling point of the game to newcomers (even if its free :P )

also, at no point in time did i react aggressive or tried to enforce my opinion. i think you are blowing things out of proportion. perhaps i could of added a smiley or two so the context would be more obvious.

i dare say you come across as a fanboy, the type that would call Funeral's dodgebounce rediculous (hence my comment above). your posts are huge and the only thing i see in them is ridiculing me and quake in favour of ut, by blowing the few words ive posted hugely out of proportion.
but, feel free to attack me more and call me whatever you want and enforce your own opinion upon me.
my opinion that dodgebounce is a great thing will stay, and i feel that keeping the same old movement (even if its tweaked) would be the wrong choice.
ut will still be ut even with dodge-bounce. infact i think it would be comparable to the q3/q4 change. i know many people will point and laugh because most have q4-hate-glasses on, but q4's sliding was great and gave a nice spin to the quake franchise without mauling it (see the current quakelive on how to maul a solid game \o/)

somethingsomething language barrier, perhaps.

You maybe suffer(ed) the premises of carpal tunnal syndrom, why not. reckon MILLIONS of ppl played with it without any problem, once again dont make from your case a generality (only thing i think, i reproached to you).

You seemd like you were trying to enforce an opinion to me, might have just been me though. Well, no not trying to blow out of proportion tbh, u can't sincerely imagine how much retardation i read about inter Ut complete made out bullsh*t or quake players biased and narrowminded as fuck, so i may be on the "defensive gear" as simple as that. Ye maybe a smiley would have try to ease the message and suggest more you were "joking by exaggerating".

You can consider me as a fanboy if you think so, i have no problem with that. WHY? because i know it's not true like AT ALL and any ppl i talk with regularly would tell you you're clearly mistaken and that's what matters to me. There are evidences (quite a lot tbh) on various UT(3) aspects i publicly shitted on and suggested quake system because i sincerly thinks quake is better on that. try ut3 epicgames forum or the new UT forum, just dont believe me, check by yourself ;) . You will notice yourself how much i'm a "fanboy" xD ...

I'm not even answering : "the type that would call Funeral's dodgebounce ridiculous" it's once again made up and totally wrong.
My post are huge because some ppl are well, hum, not the brightest stars in the sky if you know what i mean and even bringing them a+b=c prrofs, they keep on teeling you, you are wrong. Also i like to illustrate with example to avoid quiproquo as much as i can and develop what i mean. I should be more concise sometimes, i reckon.

Also, i nowhere tried to make fun of you or try to make you look ridicule, it's sad you took it so.
Also ridiculing quake in favor of ut? i mean really? You clearly dont know me and refuse to see the very objective points i make and i dont know, take this as offence or sthg.
Once and for all, i dont know GOOGLE IT OR READ SOME OF MY MESSAGES: i praise FKN QUAKE on UT forum on some aspects i think awesome, and i do it quite OFTEN, what more do you want me to say to prove you you're wrong about your feeling about me ffs.


something something reading and making up problem maybe :< ....

it wasnt me that made a massive post going borderline mental, hence why i called you out as a fanboy. ;)

i just gave my honest opinion on what i think about the dodge-bounce idea, elaborating it in that later post of mine. there was nothing more to it.

you might have taken offense at my mild poke at UT players, at least thats all i can think of. if thats the case, just ignore it?

so no, no problems were made up. opinion were given, you were the responder ;D

at the post below, i dont know what you want me to do with that... are you proving you arent a fanboy? the only reason i said that was because of comment #60 ^^

so yeah im still confused whether or not you are agreeing with me in some aggressive way, or if you are trying to say quake players are dense as fuck because 'only quake is great and everything else sucks'. im not one of those people. sure my opinion is that q3/ql is one of the greatest arena shooters ever, and i think till this day it can still be used to compare other shooters with.

if you have anything to add about the dodge-bounce thing, sure reply all you want. but i cba with this odd conversation any longer.

Well, i can't find out why you thought my post were border line mental tbh :/ .... But oh well...

As i admitted myself i'm surely on the defensive, what would you do, if ppl that barely played one hour or one week of casual UT would constantly tell you how much it sux and how much you're wrong to play it?
You would certainly be on the defensive, especially when those comments are random/free hate/blatant ignorance (look at neeple over simplifying UT movement to dodge left dodge right and wait for the guy to land to kill him easily, i mean: ROFL) :/ ...

Sorry man but you were the instigator with such:
The UT players would just say, look at these Quake fags and their faggy Quake movement. Despite the fact that this gives A) less hand cancer and [...] getting my keyboard arm amputated.

Do the work on your part to begin with imo, and reckon that's pretty aggressive to consider all UT players narrow minded insulting fucks.

What if i come and i just tell here, without any clues about maybe being a bit exaggerating/sarcastic: " wow quake close combat give me brain cancer...". I dont think you (and others) will welcome that very well.

It always sounds a bit ironic when, awwww (c) skathi, poor quake players (i'm generalising here but rightfully so), call out other players to be narrow minded when ESR and its general population is known to be one of the most hermetic to any change population.
"iz no q3? rofololol nubshitgame, die in fire". Not inventing it man, it's well known now ;) .

So ye maybe you should not generalize and state some stupid things (hand cancer, rly :) ) and maybe i should be less on the defensive gear to answer.
Sidenote: if me praising some quake mechanics repetitively (rightfully so and for the greatest good i insist) on official UT forumS is not enough to prove you i'm not a blind fanboy rejecting anything but UT mechanics, well i dont know and i will leave it there.

At least, like i said to neeple, it did stay courteous, so that's a good thing already :p !

have a good day =)

you keep saying everyone is wrong when they bash UT movement, but you never say why. Can you explain why you think UT movement is so good?

not trying to start another argument because I dont have time for that shit, but I am curious

Once again, you oversimplify what i say and make me say what i didnt at all BECAUSE you dont read and assume i said such thing. READ plz.

I didnt say everyone was wrong, first of all (sidenote: also, notice u use yourself "bash" which is quite pejorative and between "gentlemen it should be more "argue" or "comment", w/e).

1) You make me say in this 2 lines messages things i never said.

you keep saying everyone is wrong when they bash UT movement, but you never say why

I never said that. Why? because first of all, like i said you dont read what i'm saying mate. I've said myself in that very topic and to various ppl that, for example, i think quake movement fits more fluid long range movements than UT and particularly fits ctf. I underlined SEVERAL times PRECISELY, that UT close combat movements offers more possibilities (rly, do i have to explain again?? with ABC versus ABCDE comparison that you simply ignore and refuse to understand? Even astz told you to not over simplify things u seem to have few understandings about (with all due respect). And the "i never say why" i mean really, i think you dont read... try to read comment #76 and 92 for example... i'm explaining you factually that u have, close range, more variety of dynamic moves, u keep on ignoring it saying me "just NO dude", even when astz is confirming what i'm saying. Then: "you never say why" :DDDDD .

Can you explain why you think UT movement is so good?

Well, thanks again to make me look like a stupid fanboy (that u think i certainly am even though i even provide links few message BELOW yours, of me praising quake on a regular basis on UT4 OFFICIAL forum and so on, using quake screenshot/concepts and promoting its mechanic, but ok, why not

I've never said that "UT movements are so good.... I sincerely think it offers more freedom/variety and opportunities at CLOSE RANGE just like i sincerely think QL strafejump movement looks way more fluid and fits more long travelling. Re read my messages, i've never said anything than that.

I think i start to understand tbh... You seem to be so misinformed or lacking of enough depth about UT movements or delusional about the so almighty quake that you think me defending whats OBJECTIVELY good/worthy about UT movements is basic blind fanboyism although it's just defending the truth about sth i know and you over simplifying it.

Mate, i mean, you simplify UT movements for example (that's your own words basically) to dodge left dodge right and waiting to shoot where oppo will land-> i'm asking you gently wtf you smoked ( :D ) and prove you objectively wrong (astz who is quite known tells you too) -> your answer is: i cant be wrong you're delusional and a fanboy.

I've never said UT movement was 'so good', i just said it's not as bad as you think or believe it is, especially on close range where it offers more possibilities than in ql close range and that you should not over simplify it. You just say i dont use those possibilities even though u never saw me play and dont even know what i' m capable of in UT3, for example. I proposed you to test it out together in ut3, you "didnt read" or refused to answer.

Then, u make me sounds like an idiot fanboy making me say things i never did, then ppl reproach me to be on the defensive gear...go figure :D ....

Relax man. Stop being so defensive. I'm not accusing you of anything. Clearly you like UT movement. I am asking you to explain why that is.

You say it offers more freedom and variety at close range. I havent noticed this personally so I was asking you to explain it to me.

You dont have to get upset

Man, it's not that i'm upset because of one message but it's always the same by somehow, always the same ppl.

Once again with ALL DUE respect, i really question your ability to even criticize or have worthy argumentation about UT movement in general when u simplify UT movement to

"dodge left dodge right and wait to shoot where the guy will land" after that sentence, i should to be really honest, not give the slightest bit of care to any of your messages about anything related to UT movement.

You just refuse to admit you, maybe, lack of understanding in UT movements to be able to efficiently and rightfully comment about its depth (that's what i start to sincerely think). You mop the floor with any factual proof i provide to you and you're answering me that, basically, i'm a fanboy (even links of me praising QUAke on official UT forums is not enough :D ).

I'm forced to be defensive because when i see the load of BS coming from some players (and simplifying UT movement to dodge left dodge right and shoot where the oppo will land is simple plain horse poopoo, sry, or maybe at low level). i'm not natively defensive but forced to be.

Cheers

Can ZKYP / ASTZ / HYPNO / KRONIC / WINZ maybe even or FREEMAN explain them a bit? It's getting repetitive to always say the same things =( .

Instead of responding like this every time, why not just answer the question. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm seriously curious and want to hear a proper explanation.

But instead of giving me that you just whine about peoples attitudes and try to justify how you are behaving.

Forget all the past discussions we have had, assume this is a brand new start and I am a brand new person.

Can you explain to my why you like UT movement? A proper explanation.

You know, at first, i did like you think i should rather do it. Then, after arguing with a lot of pigeons, i started to be a bit more aggressive, yes, because of THEM.

I've not the force to write it anymore. I propose a teamspeak meeting :> ...i got to work and will surely be back around 20h00 cet =).

I'm asking for like a paragraph.

Nevermind man, I just wanted a quick explanation. I dont care enough to go and get teamspeak.

If you see me on irc then holla at me

That's what i often use as an example to follow (quake) on UT OFFICIAL FORUMS. I hope it will finally make you understand i try to be extremely objective in everything i say or do:

In that very topic (that's why i say you dont read or dont wanna see the obvious, i clearly say "anyway quake movements fits way more long range travelling (than UT):
http://www.esreality.com/post/2655781/re-new-...pid2655781

https://forums.unrealtournament.com/showthrea...#post76099

https://forums.unrealtournament.com/showthrea...#post79847

https://forums.unrealtournament.com/showthread.php?8217-*-*-Sound-Cheat-Prevention-*-*&p=70956#post70956

a guy suggesting me to play quake instead of suggesting too much change in UT from quakelive's mechanics:
https://forums.unrealtournament.com/showthrea...#post68727

In that same topic me saying: "Didnt say i wanted an exact quakelive way of doing (that i think is a bit too rigid, though being the most fair and rewarding system hands down)"
https://forums.unrealtournament.com/showthrea...#post72424

in that same topic, i just said:
In a Quakelive like mechanic (in UT) for example, once again, lets see what the BEST alternative bring/teach us: you will most certainly die 95% of the time *** rushing with with trirox, bio, core spam, flak snipe and so on.

In an UT like mechanic: "Oh well, you could not time anything or position yourself according to? NP. Take one of the overpowered way to get back control randomly and annihilate easily what a player needed 1/2/5 minutes of timing/positioning/smartness to build with great chances of success,npnpnp.

https://forums.unrealtournament.com/showthrea...#post64182

And so on and so forth etc.... So do you still think i'm a biased ut(3) fanboy trying to humiliate quake? At some point i thought i might be banned because of praising the very nice mechanics i find objectively better in quake (on ut3 official forums and the very new UT forum) i do it basically, well everywhere :/ ....
I want to see UT go ahead, but rather smartly and nicely rather than just copying things that would stupidly denature UT emblematic things (like shock rifle or dodge could be)

Another link of me "praising" UT(3) mechanics on my own youtube channel, demo is Kronic vs ricot (look at my 2 one year old comments):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmgdZPrBweE

Do you want more proofs or do you start to think i'm objective and not biased and maybe a bit on the defensive gear (i reckon) because i saw way too much ignorant retards (not saying that for you) from UT or Quake criticizing things just because they 'dont like it' or barely ever played it enough to appreciate the complexity of the whole thing?

I can provide countless more comments on various forums if you want it =) .

You HAVE to fkn godamn understand that some stuffs in each game/franchise are emblematic. Like Shock rifle is to UT, or dodge for that matter. Things that would lead to denature a bit too much those very emblematic criteria will not be super welcomed, ofc, even though on paper, they add in term of smoothness or fluidity or whatever (there, its not the question). I would like to see how u would welcome UT dodge in quake, even though it would add more depth/dynamic in close combat, u would then reject it as much as possible ;) .

UT players reject quake movement because its not UT movement. Quake players reject UT movement because its bad movement.

Im a UT player at heart and that is still my opinion.

Only things u can do close combat wise, is 'on the ground' dodge and place here and there a jump or a crouch to vary a bit the pattern. THANKS god in UT, i can do all those things possible in quakelive but i can fast dash, walldodge, hammer jump, bootjump, dodge bootjump, wall dodge boot jump and so on and so forth, varying the fast pace combo of possible close range moves SO MUCH more than in quake.

The way you wrote this was incredibly bias to UT. For example you said in a UT fight you can hammer jump, but failed to mention you can rocket jump in quake. For me it feels like there is much more veriety in quake. UT is just dodge left or right and shoot where you enemy dodges to. All the fights feel the same.

UT players reject quake movement because its not UT movement. Quake players reject UT movement because its bad movement.

I like how you try to make your opinion a factual statement ) , nice try nice try. Oh well, not bad for a"bad movement game" to last for 15+ years, have millions of fans/players along all the iteration providing this core movement and also, being on par with sales and famousness with his Bro': Quake =) ... As they are on par on those terms, i guess they might be equally bad ;) .

The way you wrote this was incredibly bias to UT. For example you said in a UT fight you can hammer jump, but failed to mention you can rocket jump in quake.

awww that's cute, now you can notice bias when it favours your opinion, how ironic... just like it's very atrociously biased to quake movement saying "UT movements gives hand cancer", wtf really?

Once again, u missed a crucial point, in whatever UT u SPAWN with hammer, which allows you to use a hammer jump (or a combination of it) to attack/escape/reach a specific area at close range or not at SPAWN. I may have missed something but i dont think in any quake core gameplay and mechanics (despite CA) that u spawn with rl ;) ??? (not considering the very recent loadouts in the new update).
You feel there is much more variety in quake? Really? u do realize u can do the exact same thing in UT close combat that u can do in quake plus a lot of other different combos. How on earth offering more movement mechanic possibilities could it lead to less variety?

UT is just dodge left or right and shoot where you enemy dodges to. All the fights feel the same.

Are you sure you played more than 1 hour of UT? especially with at least low+ mid ppl?Anyway, why not, lets assume that. How biased it is, once again though, why not. So what is quake without dodge? I will, like you, over simplify the thing:
"Quake movement is easy, u just shoot where the guy jump/strafe too or where he walks too"
You can notice yourself you can't objectively see and reckon that UT (esp after ut2k*) will always offer more possibilities/variety close range than quake ;) .

Whenever I start arguing with you I always regret it because you say so many things I want to explain why they are wrong but I dont have the time. In short

1. I will change my above statement. UT players reject quake movement because its not UT. Quake players reject UT movement because in their eyes its not good movement. If it was good they would be open to it.

2. I didnt forget that you spawn with hammer. But I wasnt talking about fights right off spawn. I'm talking about normal fights where 90% of the time both players have rocket launchers.

3. I've played UT since 2002 and still play it nowadays. Not as long as many people but 12 years is long enough to understand how it works. UT fights are all the same and no way near as varied as you say. Much less varied than quake fights. In UT dodges make you vulnerable and its all about waiting for your enemy to dodge so you can shoot him when he lands while he is glued to the floor for a split second. It got boring a long time ago.

You are seriosuly overestimating the amount of variety in UT fights.

=> Yeah, the important words are "in their eyes". I thought you were better than that man, i can simply turn your argument to you and you will always loose the "fight". "In their eyes", tremendous amount of UT players rejects quake movements because it's not good/good enough movement for them. If it was good, they would open to it.

As you can see, you will loose in any case because you fail to see that:
1) what you dont like =/= it's shit (aka the spinach syndrome or possibly the q3 syndrome xD)
2) Not everything is or black or white. I can perfectly live up with the fact quake movements feels better and fits more long travel fluid movements and that Ut offers more possibility than quake close range fight. I do and np.

=> I took the most general case possible, when u compare things man, it's the basic of explanation/arguing, u take the most general cases and don't make out a generality out of a particular case :) . Also, i don't know where u took those 90% stat. it seems less than that clearly (it has to be considered also the skill of ppl etc) but I'm pretty pretty sure it's less than 90% (ofc not considering CA).

=>I've played thousands of hours of UT at all the levels from casual to being able to defeat any top players, and they are as much varied as i say.
"much less varied as quake fights" hahaha, well ok. once again you have more possibility to move close range in UT than in quake, HOW ON EARTH can it be less varied, i mean explain me.

your:

In UT dodges make you vulnerable and its all about waiting for your enemy to dodge so you can shoot him when he lands

make me wonder once again you ability to judge or contribute in the discussion objectively with such over simplification. Ask winz or Kronic or freeman if it's that simple as "waiting for your oppo to dodge and shoot where he is. I mean, again, RLY? At very newbie level, well why not... You know though, that while u will wait for me to land, i have all the time in the world to shoot at you? Lets try fights if you want inql/ UT3 i will not dodge then dodge, try to kill me or "wait for me to dodge" lets try :D , i will then post a video of our little experiment. np.

And you are srsly underestimating the variety of Ut OR overestimating quake possibilities, either of it ;p .

At least i'm glad it's deeper than "roflol u noobshit u sux quake so pro" argumentation ;p !

there isnt a chance in hell anyone could get through to you. I am certain you are deluded about UT movement and anything you say is good about it isnt even true

hahahaah if you would know me more (and maybe read what i write/wrote more) you would notice yourself you're wrong (i stated few message below or above that i think ql strafe favors more long distance fluid travelling than ut and that it fits more gamemodes like ctf without any problem, just read). I think that comment is very very ironic from you tbh, whatever.

I'm very open to criticism and very critic toward UT tbh as long as it's not retarded and objective, ask me what i dont like/ what i feel retarded or what i feel could be done better about UT, i will answer you right away.

I think you simply didnt play enough ut or at too much of a casual level to compare (with all due respect) both movements depth (not like i consider myself pro at quake dodging either...)

You're telling me since several posts that in a game offering you A - B - C possibilities in movement close range, you have more variety than in a game offering you A - B - C - D -E with the ABC in each game being narrowly the same.
I dont get the logic at all (ofc theres none).

As i said, at least it did stay civilized.

Cheers

I played 12 years of UT, 2k3, 2k4 and 3 combined. I wasnt a top level player but I played it enough to have a reasonable opinion of what UT combat is like.

You keep saying UT has more options but I'm saying it doesnt. I've played UT and Quake for a long time and I can very safely say that Quake fights have been vastly more varied than UT fights.

The 2 reasons I have stopped playing UT (since a couple of months ago) was the boring samey fights, and the boring jerky movement.

What kept me around was the guns. They are fun as shit

And i disagree with you, as simple as that.

Explain me how on earth a game that :

offers you A - B - C possibilities in movement close range, you have more variety than in a game offering you A - B - C - D -E with the ABC in each game being narrowly the same.

I think we wont be able to agree (as u simply BLATANTLY refuse to see factual evidences about close range combat), lets leave it there and call it a day? Like gentlemen.

"You are a Quake player, what do you know about UT?"

That cracks me up, Fatal1ty for e,g.

this comment barely makes sense.

Are you fatality or were they answering him? Can you talk for him? Lots of quake crybabies barely never ever played Ut or more than an hour of ut, so ye, even though like you, i dont like too much this sentence you quoted, i can see from where it comes from :) .

work it out.
edit: this might help
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal1ty

No need, the fact u try to evade the answer is enough =) .

They may have answered that to another quake guy, in any cases ,my comment is still completely valid and makes perfect sense. Exact opposite of yours (if it was not an answer to Fatality).

edit: Ok so ye, defo, you dont make any sense at all (i perfectly knew who fatality is and what he played).
Generalizing the case of one guy to a whole community of players.Wow really?
Lemme find a pro quaker that never played UT and then, where will stand your point? Ah well, where it should be, in the bin =( .

why do I need to answer it, I thought plainly obvious..

background, history = answer

Edit: in response to your edit change: "you now see his history", but the quote that "quake players don't know about UT", is pretty definitive and generic in itself, like what your saying is the opposite. And you recon there were not many Quake players that went to play UT? Nice to see some stats of that.

Hum, i'm afraid i dont plainly understand the way u write your messages :/ ...
You seem to say that "i reckon there were not many Quake players that went to play UT" i've never ever said such things :/ ...
or show me where, really.

I was underlining the fact u take one example to make a general rule.

A guy saying:"You're a quake player, what do you know about UT"

(i find this pretty generic and stupid btw, even though i know by personal experience a lot of whiners, quake players included, barely played a noticable enough amount of time of UT to be reasonably reckoned as valuable opinions.

Your answer was "That cracks me up, Fatal1ty for e,g."

So because fatality, won in both game major event(s) ofc ALL quake players knows UT well enough or simply even played it? WHAT?

OK (c) strenx

Then i totally lost you with "stats".

might be a language barrier problem or something from what you write and read, as you are very bias.

your comment# 61

Lots of quake crybabies barely never ever played Ut

and within this comment #73 you say

barely played

.I think your making the general rules up. When did you start playing UT?

PS. Don't take me out of context, never said ALL. The person who wrote ["You are a Quake player, what do you know about UT?"] is technically saying ALL and which is just dumb, I really hope you grasp it this time.

PS Cracks me up, is meaning for laughable. As for stats I would like to see what makes you think that there were not many players "barely never ever" playing UT?

Understrandezvous (c) senior? (see what I did there?)

MUHUHWUAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

The best part is the last quote!

I'm very biased? really, hahaha sounds very ironic to me tbh. i think you're suffering understanding problems man.

Yes, lots of ppl that criticize it when you ask them about how much they played ut: "well i played one week, years ago"/ "well i played for 1 month casually" and then they try to convince you how bad it is where they could not grasp the glimpse of its depth.

Also, i dont know if you consider all' the quake cry-babies' being the same than 'all the quake players', because i dont and never did.

I started to play UT hum i think in july/august/sept 2006 (i mean somehwat on a regular basis) but i played UT before at that time.

Dude, your sentence once again is ".."

Don't take me out of context, never said ALL. The person who wrote ["You are a Quake player, what do you know about UT?"] is technically saying ALL and which is just dumb, I really hope you grasp it this time.

How can you possibly know that the guy was not talking about one person rather than generalizing? I'm sure you 'know it'.

Also from barrier language, i have no problem and from someone that makes sentences that barely have sense and with:

"I thought plainly obvious.." / "you now see his history" / you recon there were not many Quake players that went to play UT? Nice to see some stats of that. /

Projecting much about the barrier language :<? You explain yourself quite badly or at best clumsily, you're generalizing and doing stupid amalgams or make me say things i never said then "i have language barrier cause i'm very biased" :DDDDDDDDDDDDD

To answer your edit: i perfectly know what "cracks me up" means and a lot of time i talked about some quakers that was whining about UT or even inter UT wars, you most of the time discovers those ones barely played the game they shit on.
I've never referred to "quake cry babies" as for ALL the Quake players, you once again are making things up and make me say things i never said and then after, i have "language barrier" problems.

fo sho' (see what i did there?)

ps2: i've been talking with neeple who use way better built and "complex" sentences than you and we had no problem to understand each other, so well, huh...

stopppped reading, just quit having a go, and misquoting me, when you obviously misrepresented yourself, and use everyone else's reasoning against you to counter others. Clever but stupid.

Edit: did you notice the decline of the Q2 and Q1 community when unreal came out or Unreal Tournament? Some went some stayed, some came back, some did both.

That is pretty obvious.

What's obvious to me is dynodeath's stupid message tbh.

If the guy who objectively stated ("You are a Quake player, what do you know about UT?", talked about Quake players in general, i mean, wow, this guy is stupid as fuck and his comment is not even worthy to take the slightest care of, why even quote that like dynodeath did, to very badly try to show UT ppl in general are stupid fucks?

I think this guy referred to the precise person he was talking to (i hope for him otherwise np, it just means he got 2 brain cells duelling and whatever he says is not worth mentioning)
To know, i think, a bit more the Ut community and the recent one of rather skilled ppl, i KNOW for a fact any normally built UT skilled player would never say such things or state such things as this stupid generalization he did.

That's what obvious to me agu. Taking a comment out of context and generalizing about it about a whole community.

dude, don't misquote me, sod off. In the politest of fashion. This was a very simple discussion that was about a very naďve quote to say that Quake players have no idea about UT. But you made it into your rage zone. so again sod off, and talk UT.
Edit: deleted profanities

huh?*2?

rage zone what? xD

hahaha actually i am starting to notice 2 things:
or you miss out more than 50% of things i say or you're trying to troll me (can't be possible to miss so much points), nie da sie
Dunno :/ ...

This might bring a little humour back into it:

Hypno owns. He OWNZ!!!

i have a question does anybody have any sort of control over their movement in unreal tournament

how about dodge slide?

i mentioned it once in a topic about UT4, i hope their developers have seen my post!

If this game becomes successful and resurrect itself, I still don't want to get back into it to be honest. I remember Unreal well, I had good times, but I'd like to leave those times behind now. Even now playing Supraball I remember how silly that double tap dodge shit was. Maybe it's past my time, maybe new players should experience the old school Unreal, but I certainly don't want to go through it all again.

I'd play Reflex though if it's any good.

"It's not quake"

R E B O R N
E
F
L
E X T R A C T I O N (Dirty Bomb C O O L L E R)
X

By the way this video of Hypno playing shows that movements are not as bad as seeing "regular" players play.

By the way looks like they called some "elites" of UT, isn't winz one of them? why didn't they call him?

I think hypno is the only Euro 'elite' player that's went and I guess that's because he's been writing on the forums and contacting the developers a lot, providing feedback. Doing a good job imo! Carmac was also there, providing feedback on game play and esport features etc. That's another great guy to have there. With his experience from UT, Quake, ESL and so on I'm sure he had a lot to say. :)

The others are from the USA and possibly Canada? Not sure.

On the podcast carmac was quite opinionated and has many issues with UT. He said that right now he doesnt like UT4 in its current state.

I imagine he will be giving plenty of helpful feedback to the team

link?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UIm0ulnVNQ&feature=youtu.be

Haven't had a chance to watch it yet. I'm sure he has a lot to say though!

The movement is still rather ugly though.

Why does UT have such a fascination with sideways/strafe motion? What's so bad about forward?

In the current build this is "fixed'". They have added what has been coined "single tap dodge". Essentially it is a modifier key like dash in wsw. It makes you dodge whichever direction key you are holding.

So you can now continually dodge forward (with the delay between use) by holding forward and the modifier if you want. Previously chaining forward did not really work as there would be some sort of delay due to depressing the key for a fraction of a second.

Not that it makes the movement less ugly.

BeyondUnreal Podcast #16 Epic Playtest Special Edition
Hypno, Carmac, xios, m3ss

http://www.esreality.com/post/2655115/new-pov...pid2655289

Also http://www.esreality.com/post/2634035/list-of...pid2655235 but whos counting really?

i saw that, and that's why i posted it properly below embedded and with specific info about what it was instead of a random link to a youtube video on esr which might as well be a troll

thanks

DON'T THANK HIM! THINK ABOUT PLUSES!

I've just put it onto the top of the thread.

gj!

Yeah, that movement is still so off putting it's not even funny.

Found a video about ut4 crouchsliding


The sliding movement could be bit longer for my taste it is not really noticable

could be pretty cool if combined with rocket jumps

make the wall jumps give you extra speed and then you could nicely combine rocket jumps, dodges, wall jumps and slides to have some pretty fluid movement

but yeah, its just another cool idea that they wont implement

That is why it might be pointless suggesting movement changes in the first place
I took my time and read through the reddit and Epic Games forum, and I have to admit that most of the threads about movement changes are getting shot down quickly. The community seems to be very narrow minded, bottom line dont expect any new movement in UT4, that is atleast how I understood.

Yep thats pretty much how it is. I started with UT and I have nostalgic affection for the series, but it has some massive flaws that the community doesnt want fixed.

They seem more concerned with not being like quake and not deviating from the norm than actually creating a good game.

Some fun quotes from the rocket jumping thread on the UT forums:

Rocket Jumping is gay... UT doesn't need that, firing a rocket at the ground U just jumped from should blow yourself up... UT doesn't need this there are other methods and better ways to get high jumping like errr..... Jump Boots!!

I'd leave the rocket jumping to quake.

Hammer jump, jump boots, hammer with jump boots, lift jump, lift jump with boots. That is all that is needed. Lets not quake it up.

no rocket jumping... this is silly to add to UT. .wanna call it UTQUAKE2014?

I bet they forgot that UT99 had Rocket Arena
To all those movement discussion (example: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/archive/index.php/t-7869.html)
I can only shake my head in total despair

Well, maybe they want to have the "tradition" of UT kept, I don't see disagreement about the game's concept.

Maybe. But good gameplay is more important than tradition in my eyes.

They have rejected an awful lot of gameplay decisions because they are not tradition and I'm sure a lot of them could have really improved the game.

same as here about quake?

Awesome, a game with all the movement finesse of Mechwarrior.

tbh i dont see any, ANY crouchslide. movement looks like he is playing with 200 ping - much fun

May as well post this too.

Wall Running Prototype by sneh:


Thread: https://forums.unrealtournament.com/showthrea...ll-Running

wow thats very interesting, i would change the concept of fighting in ARENA-Duel, it doenst look like Warsow, not at all tho.

wow, looks great

That looks so cool!

those narrow corridors seem like a blatant trap, I suppose a nice way to dodge.

That is some sexy shit. I would play UT4 with this too.

Theres an awful lot of movement implementations that would get me to play UT4, except the one they are actually implementing.

Looks very interesting!

That's cool, like Titanfall with wall running, btw maybe trying to boost ground speed after wall running can be a good thing too, you see what I mean?

The fundamental idea is brilliant, but implementation needs some iterative tweaking. And those narrow corridors do not look good imo. But curved walls can become a core element that will glue movement and aesthetics together.

This should be derived as a standalone game.

On the one hand I like the dodging, it makes close-combat fights more intense. On the other hand it is annoying outside of said fights, when you have to move through the map using that technique (tap tap - tap tap - tap tap). Would be nice if they were able to find a decent middle ground, e.g. combining bunnyhopping and dodging, so that skilled dodgers still have an advantage in fights (and in doing trickjumps) but one wouldn't be required to constantly hammer keys while moving from A to B.

what do ut players think about quake movement in general?

https://forums.unrealtournament.com/showthrea...-mechanics
See for yourself and get stunned by the outstanding argumentation
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NOT!

I think, it's a very nice system overall even though theres still quite some room to make it better (just like in UT :p )
I like that feel of fluidity you have in term of gaining speed gradually and i sincerely think quake movements really suit gamemodes like ctf, where its full potential is reached imo.
On the other hand i dont like much this lack of aircontrol and miss UT close combat mechanics, giving you way more dynamic options to lure your oppo or "dodge his bullets".

I very like both tbh in different ways.

and miss UT close combat mechanics, giving you way more dynamic options to lure your oppo or "dodge his bullets".

UT does have close combat mechanics, but it doesnt have lots of dynamic options. Lets face it, a UT fight is just dodging around your opponent and waiting for them to land so you can hit them with a rocket or some flak

As far as options go, in a fight you can pretty much dodge left, or dodge right. I agree that the movement is based around close quarters, I just dont think it does it very well

I prefer the quake close combat fights because they are based around moving unpradictably while maintaining your aim. Close LG vs LG fights require you to dodge his shaft and aim yours well enough to beat him. You can take the gamble mid fight to switch to RL and suffer some damage while you switch but potentially kill your enemy faster by hitting some good rockets, but if he dodges them then you will be shafted down

You also move fast enough to turn the close quarters fight into a chase if you feel you will lose by backing around a corner and switichng to RL or rocket jumping out of the fight before it gets too nasty, or even just backing away and trying to get a rail shot on them. UT movement is too slow to do this

Stuff like that I really like, but UT feels like constant jumping left and right, waiting for your opponent to do the same and spamming shots in his direction as he does. Jump, stop, jump, stop, jump, stop, die

It doesnt feel like clever and varied close quarters fighting

Please don't talk rubbish. Your description of infight combat was just awful. I could apply everything you said about quake and the 'unpredictability' into UT and even the escape stuff.

I mean jumping left, right and waiting for your opponent to do the same. Maybe for completely new or low skilled players yes... Same applies in Quake or any other shooter though.

i stop reading when he makes a confusion about dodge and strafe. :P

I wasnt confused. Dodge can mean the UT mechanic and to avoid something. When I was talking about dodging in quake I meant avoiding the LG or the rockets.

The word dodging is fine there. Maybe you were confused.

quake has no "dodge", quake has strafe tho, but if I'm wrong I'm sorry i just see things in this way.

The verb to dodge means to avoid sth. In UT a dodge is the action to dble tap a direction or a combo of direction to do a quick dash towards those directions.
Dodge in quake is way closer to its initial meaning: " to avoid", so while cooller avoid every goddamn rockets by WALKING/strafin he actually dodges them (but not the action of dashing). :p

nice, i thought the word wasn't properly used, but yeah to "dodge" is like "to dribble" the artefact.

Exactly

but yeah to "dodge" is like "to dribble" the artefact.

huh? Do you guys speak a new version of english that I dont understand?

The words dodge and dribble have nothing to do with each other and I have no idea why you said "artefact" at the end. Whats going on

I understood what he meant just like you did even if it wasnt the best comparison.
Try to not attack someone for who English is not the native language. Only thing u will do, is loosing credibility imo ;) .

I'm not attacking him I'm confused and genuinely curious. But thank you for the advice

Well even if it was a bit clumsy, i perfectly understood what he meant and i thought u were trolling a bit but fair enough.

I still dont understand and english is my first and only language. Oh well

because some native speakers, specially in the US don't know the language properly?

skill is similar to ability, pardon to excuse(or sorry even), rendezvous (French: rendez-vous), to visit, to meet, trys, eau de cologne to a "simple/regular/MODEST" perfume, and so on and so on.

try to read the lord of the rings books, the viking series, and some sort of that. i sometimes commit mistakes which is normal, but i hate when someone acts like as the master of the language criticizing something without having the proper knowledge of it.

I'm not saying I'm the master of the language. I'm from england and have been speaking english all my life and I can tell you that "dribbling the artefact" does not mean dodging.

Did you mean you were dribbling around the object or something? Like in football? And by object do you mean the enemies rockets and LG and stuff?

Thats about as much sense as I can make out of this after you explained what you meant by artefact

you damn fucking dumb, artefact means THE OBJECT. "new version" READ SHAKESPEARE once in a life time!

firstly, nobody ever says artefact to mean object. Technically it means a man made object but when you say it, people assume you mean like an ancient historical object like an old sword or something.

secondly, I still have no idea what object you are talking about and why you would be dribbling it and what that has to do with dodging.

not your fault of course because english isnt your first language, but to call me "fucking dumb" when you are writing retarded sentences like that is about as stupid as it gets. nothing you wrote was correct or made sense.

Like I said, not your fault, but dont be a cunt about it, especially when you are in the wrong.

ok you are right in this way, that means a man-made-object, no excuses from it.

this has to do with the object that the guy spells/shoots on you, which means just the shooting part, somebody shoots and you can "dribble" it. when i typed up there i tried to specify that it was a borrowed word to get the most "similar" meaning possible, current that i don't know a word which is more similar to dodge.

it made sense to him because he knows latin, and it means as i possibly think, that you only know engilsh i think. for example in portuguese and in spanish you can say:

"the guy was shot by the other man's gun artefact" which does not really mean by the "historical man made object", which means more to JUST the object but in a "more polite" way.

I'm sorry it is just because i lost my mind because it is so simple but so simple that i have to realize that in that occasion it would be difficult to somebody that only speaks english.

No worries man. I understand what you mean now, your choice of words just didnt make sense

i didn't reply the other post because it was just idiot by my part.

damn it was so idiot by my part, and part of my ignorance at the language! unfortunately i made a confusion but it has no excuse to "rage" out of nowhere! i really feel sorry i was rethinking about it here. i hope it doesn't bother you.

not a problem. we are both on the same page now

(y)

the same doesnt apply to quake because you run fast enough to be able to fake movement, change directions and move unpredictably

in ut you pick a direction zoom over there without any indication and are stuck with the consequences

to hit someone with a rocket in quake you have to watch them and predict where they will move to

in ut you just have to see which way they dodge and shoot where they will land which is simple because all dodges are the same length if there are on flat ground. hell they even stop at the end of the dodge to make themselves easier targets

hahaha not really, like not at ALL or maybe at a low level, why not.

For the moment you claim a lot of statements. Lets organize sth (as you played and surely own a copy of ut3, i propose me and hypno to do the movement test (hypno is quite better than me at moving btw)

Thanks god my super Haggys telling them what time it is too :) , ye cause sometimes i feel alone (see what i did there :>)

Anyway astz is a clear noob that never ever did something in any of the UT and is an obvious delusional troll or biased UT fanboy like i am =) .


(more seriously, i HOPE at least they will trust you more than me astz, cause i'm tired to continuously explain the same thing (over simplifying things and generalizing when that fits their PoV ;) ).

I feel you bro! Stay strong! :D

man, i understand of what you mean but lets talk about UT4 not Quake? As much as possible ?

HUH, it was originally a reply to comment #67


Once again, i mean, seriously?

It will always offer mor ethan Quake by definition. So well why not, if ut doesnt offer a lot of them, then quake still offers less.

If you think UT close combat (or not) movement is just dodge left dodge right, i mean, well why do i even waste time. It's like saying quake on-the-ground dodge is resumed to walk left /walk right.

Once again, your point (about a lg fight) doesnt make much sense at all. Lemme explain why.

take 2 quake players lg vs lg. U can totally emulate what they will do in UT:
-walk/strafe left/right/forward/backward
-crouch
-jump (why not :D)

with 2 players with link gun secondary fire. You can totally reproduce any quake player dodge pattern (cooller dodge!!1!) in UT. You know in UT too u got to dodge the guy's link sec and keep on maintaining your Xhair on him BUT u can add to everything u do in quake close combat PLUS dodge/walldodge (with air control, reminder), in 360° direction. The switch to rl situation can totally be emulate too, i fail to see where the movement mechanic differs so much in a good way (only the lg range changes, but it has nothing to do with close combat movement, which was the point).

I play both UT and Quake (almost exclusively quake since several months) and well no, ut movement close range are as fast at a minimum as in quake. the difference grows exponentially with the distance increase (as u gain speed in quake with strafe jumps) Anyway quake movements fits way more fluidl long range movement .

If it feels to you "like constant jumping left and right" sorry mate but with all due respect then, you're doing it wrong =( ... it's like a new guy in quake that would understand nothing to strafe jumps would simplify the whole complex strafe jump mechanic to "lol they just bunny hop ololo". i mean, it will sound as stupid to you than it sounds to me. Just like suming up ut movements to "jump left and right", i mean huh really?

Interesting last sentence :p , u used "feel" instead of "be", so you implicitly reckon yourself it's a subjective opinion not be considered factual. :p

Btw is there a Heartless in UT, using link gun for thunderstruck style fights?

Well, two good linkers i know, u maybe know them too :p

Zkyp & kRoNic (kron' for obvious reasons :p)

It's not exactly what you asked me though but i dont know enough heartless to know that. I dont know any "1 map only 1 weapon only" in UT but there surely are.

Ok, I just found it cool, if you watch the hypno video up there at 8:28 he uses the link gun and tracks pretty well, after watching many videos I'm wondering now why they don't use it more, too low dps compared to the shock rifle, rockets?

hello zbot btw.

Well to answer you, it depends on the game imo, as usual it's more complicated than just "they dont use it".

First of all, UT netcode is not as smooth or gentle after a certain ping than ql is, i would say above 40+ .

LInk sec in UT is above all considered a "finishing weapon" not as a "main weapon" as lg is in quake BUT the contrast between main weapons and "secondary weapons" is not as clear as in quake imo because every weapon in UT somehow more death bringing than in quake. So here it's more, somehow, a psychic thing.

Secondly, the link sec range is shorter than the lg range in quake with all proportion kept. So obliviously a link versus rocket fight is morerisky in UT because u got to get closer in proportion than in quake (here i point you out to that concept: would lg would be used as much against rl for example if the range was 60% shorter?).


I, once, tried to log the dps of weapons to compare but i cant remember. Luau, that i was talking about earlier on in this topic about his custom movement mutator, did a precise DPS graph of each weapon.
Interestingly link sec did the same dmg/cell than Lg. 7hp/it (at least in UT3, i'm fairly sure it's the same in 2k4 but not sure for ut99).

So too answer you i think it's more a combo (shock combo pun, badamtsss...)of both things i explained above. the range and the "finishing weapon" than the dps. A very good linkgun player will destroy you because in ut2k4/ut3 the link sec lock you down as a feature for linking him accurately enough (not sure you see what i mean clearly as i explain that quite badly).

hi

"the link sec lock you down as a feature for linking him accurately enough"

like with the rocket if you keep your crosshair on the target?

I would love to see one very good linkgun player and see how he abuses of it to win fights, I'll try to search, thanks for the details btw

Nah, i explained myself badly, sry. That feature i was talking about is the following:

If you link sec accurately enough your opponent for a certain amount of time, it will unable him to dodge or to escape for example, make a lift go down mid-process to make you comeback in the fight zone


Random example: you link the guy with overall 40% acc, cool. You suddenly start to link him at 50% for 0.5 sec, he will then physically loose the ability to dodge no matter how much time he will try to (the of the link gun dmg change iirc).

You're fighting a guy near an elevator. That very guy takes the elevator to escape the fight. While hes on the elevator going up, that you could not take, and escaping, you link him at 50% for 0.5 sec the lift will then go down and bring him back to starting point (down the elevator course)

(numbers chosen are random and used only for explaining purpose :p )

Nice, I guess it balances the fact you have to be close to use it.

too long, DID read. :P

UT dodging feels wierd, mainly because it's used as the primary mechanism to move around the map and maintain speed. It just isn't thought through imo. I'm sure it looked good on paper but quickly was taken advantage in ways that weren't foreseen. Similar to quake in some respects other than the fact that the qw system was unintentional. I also think that the fluidity of bunnyhopping gave a lot of satisfaction to players, evident by the fact that it's a staple in many games and not just quake and it's derivatives.

I can't help but feel this game will flop. Epic has heard like others that people want some new more arcade and scifi fps games, and have gone with a low risk and relatively easy to make game that will make a decent financial return but won't make a big impact in terms of longevity or popularity.

this is an epic discussion thread (see what I did there?)

I love terrible puns

its one of those f*cked up things that older people used to laugh at, but actually its a bit of fun :)

I tried out the latest playable build here, they did add a bind for dodge which makes the movement a lot more fun, the double tap still works but you can use a bind for it

Unfortunately all the weapons feel and perform horribly. I've played Wickland and other niche arena fps games and the weapons feel a lot better compared to UT. The rocket launcher doesn't even go where you fire it, either the crosshair isn't center or the aiming is messed up on it. The secondary link gun does minimal damage, same with the minigun. It's probably not even damage, just netcode. None of the projectiles like the bio rifle or flak secondary feel right. I don't know if it's the distance or the fall speed or what, but they feel really slow and almost feel like they have a negative inheritance

and of course the shock rifle is king. I swear this games balanced just gets fucked up from the shock rifle. It reminded me why this game can be really un-fun, one combo and you're done. Plus hitscan primary, like jesus christ this gun is ridiculous

anyways I wanted to keep playing but at 40 ping the weapons just felt like garbage, the physics, the firing, everything, it was just bad. Maybe it's not a huge focus right now I don't know, but it felt worse than poorly developed indie arena fps games.

they could hire arqon :x

watching a few demos of it, yes it is still in production, but it looks alright at this stage. Watching them, like stermys, brings back some great memories of playing the first version and other versions, and the alt weapon stuff, like firing 6 rockets at once, love it.

it brings back some memories for me too, unfortunately they're mostly UT3 memories because of the sounds+visuals+bad weapons, but I'll give it time since those are likely placeholders

Shockrifle for me is ok, it reminds me of qw's rocket, it is damn strong and for me it is good because I like some hardcore weapons, railgun in original Quake3 is pretty strong tho, 100 damage am I right?

Have you played the first stages of Quake4? the shotgun was just ridiculous strong as like in QW too.

I like massive Quad frags such as in QW so it would be damn awesome in UT4 with the shockrifle hahah!

the shock combo is too easy though imo, that's the issue. yeah it's tough for casuals to hit, but if you practice it can be pretty easy. I think it should either be more difficult to hit (smaller secondary radius) or less damage. The explosion is too big, damage too high, and too easy to hit. keep damage and radius, but make the initial secondary much smaller so it's a lot harder to hit

Dude you made me think in another concept, it could have a less radius, plus the damage just a little bit nerfed and in order to balance it increase the "bobble's" speed, what you think?

I could never bring myself to practice these double jumps, felt like too much hassle (and finger joint pain after a couple of weeks of playing), make it at least ut2k4 movement or you wont get anyone to play it in all fairness - '99 movement is just completely outdated concept in 2014, smashing aa [spacebar][spacebar] aa dd all the time is just completely idiotic

they added a bind for 'dodge', you can double tap if you want but I have the 'dodge' bind on shift, so just hit shift and you can dodge or walljump. it's a lot better and you get used to it, but I miss ut2k4 movement so it always feels odd to have the dodge without the jump

The Quake vs UT war.. it has been a while.

Yeah the discussion is really boring tbh.

I love (or used to, not really playing anymore) both games, they have their strong and weak points. But they are different games and should stay different.

UT could use a little bit more spice in the movement so that long distances can be bridged in a more fluid way. Closer range the dodge is perfect the way it is and it's not clunky at all (except if you don't know how to play the game).

They probably won't spice up the movement, but it will stay a perfectly decent game. If you don't like it, don't play it, don't bitch about it.

Lets add some more useless discussion!! Since everyone is bitching about strafe vs dodge, imo strafe doesn't compare to bunnyhop for fluidness, speed and closecombat battles ;) And no I don't want a cpma UT I just wanna see some more useless discussion :D

Exactly, didnt say anything else than that.

Some ppl are apparently not the brightest stars in the sky because even with repetitive long ass posts explaining this in details, it was not enough.
At least at the end i got some support...

Better late than never =) .

GoiracH is totally right, they're just different games and they're awesome at different things.

I actually do prefer quake movement for travelling from point A to B, it does feel a lot more natural and I can be alone in a map just having fun with strafe jumping around.

UT imo in close combat is a lot more complex and has more depth, I truly lack that in quakelive. I seriously dont know how some kind of bunnyhopping/strafejumping would work in UT.. with combos and stuff, not sure it would actually break the gameplay.

Let's just try to be open minded here and not make another UT vs Quake war again as winz said, there are already enough wars on UT99 vs UT2003 vs UT2004 vs UT3. I also have the same opinion regarding those games, they have pros and cons and in the end you can take always something positive from all of the series.

Hey hypno, you play QL or CS, or something else or no time or?

I played QL in the past while there were LAN tournaments in Portugal for it, then I stopped playing and came back only for Shootmania, qualified for ESWC and then left. Now I just came back again to play some UT4 matches =)

I wonder what will be left from quake in QL when UT 4 will be out :)
id makes favour for UT o/

I have resigned myself to the fact that I just dont understand why UT dodging is good or why it has more depth in close quarters combat because I have never been able to see all the good things people say about it.

But I'd love to see a UT game where momentum could be conserved over long distance travel, to kind of merge the fun of getting around the map like in quake, and the close quarters depth people seem to enjoy about UT.

Something like skiing would be cool so to travel over long distances you could rocket jump, shield jump or hammer jump horizontally into a slide. The slide could work like a tribes slide and players could have fun getting around like that and then when they are in a fight the slide would be useless (as you need momentum to make use of it) and the players would use dodging during combat stages.

Sounds like the best of both worlds.

easy.
quakelive close combat = someone fires a rocket then you get hit
UT close combat = someone fires a rocket you can dodge out of the splash zone

It's not possible in quake unless they're aiming for the body rather than the floor. anyone who says it's possible is thinking mid range combat

In quake you move in a way where they cant predict where to place the rocket in the first place.

In UT if its up close then you will get hit by the rocket unless you dodge before they fire.

In both games, if its close range its about predicting the shot and avoiding it pre-emptively. The difference is that in quake you can move in lots of directions in a short space of time, and in UT you only have time to dodge once.

In mid range in UT then yeah you can see the rocket and dodge out the way, but then same goes for quake.

With the 1 button dodge in UT4 this may change. I havent played UT4 much so I cant say.

Basically, in quake or UT, its very rare people are reacting to rockets in close up fights. Its more likely they are pre-emptively dodging. In quake, 1 second of pre-emptive dodging can equal some forward, then backward, then left and then right movement. In UT, 1 second of pre-emptive dodging is just one dodge either left or right.

Thats what I dont get.

Unless their gun is basically touching body then no, you can dodge jump out the way. If you think a dodge isn't big enough to avoid rocket splash damage in 2k4 then you haven't played it much. Only way it wouldn't is multi-rocket spread out or a narrow corridor

I guess it might be possible in quake too if circle jumping but you never see anyone circle jump out the way close range because then they have to move their cursor away from the enemy....and arrow keys does fuck all because that dodging is slow as fuck i.e. can't dodge a rocket. But in UT you can dodge to the side a big distance while still firing at the enemy

I think we have a different idea of what close range is. At the range I'm thinking of, it isnt common to see a fired rocket and then double tap to dodge it.

At the range im thinking of, the only way it would avoid the rocket is if they had already started to dodge at the same time the enemy fired.

In both games you try to not stand still and be unpredictable in fights so the enemy has trouble knowing where to shoot, the difference is that in quake you can move all over the place very quickly to do this, and in ut you have to slowly dodge in predictable trajectories once every second.

Thats what I mean

At the range I'm thinking you can't dodge post fire no...but people dodge jump at that kind of range already unless the enemy is using shock/lg

In QL you'll be floating left/right but the distance isn't anything out of potential splash zone e.g. you can only dodge direct attempts

Thats what I'm saying, in QL you move in a way where its hard for them to predict where you will be when the rocket reaches you. Combine that with your actual movement after the rocket is fired and thats what decides if you dodge it.

In UT you only have time for 2 dodges inbetween rockets, you are very easy to track and where you land is very easy to predict.

QL has lots of things going on between rockets, lots of mind games, lots of movement. UT just has 1 or 2 very basic, very easy to track dodges and when the opponent is ready to fire again chances are you are standing still due to the dodge cooldown.

>Let's just try to be open minded here

you need to understand 90 % of esr users are unconditional quake lovers and they are watching how their game gets worse and worse after each update while other gameplays are building new platforms for a bigger bet. This ends up in a elitist and frustrated community (why not MY game).

Best of luck with UT hypno, you rock !

Maybe that's the reason yeah :)

Thanks man, cheers ;)

I tried to say that to people here, to focus on the topic's msg, UT4!

Love UT, but damn...the movement feels so clumsy after playing and watching Quake. :/