Timenudge is local to the person using it only.

It's not a cheat, it's been tested over and over, and that's why it is allowed, but limited to -20.

If anything it's a disadvantage to use it, it can feel better for a bit, but it's more consistently accurate not to.

Why limited to -20, as in isn't that limiting an advantage so it isn't that much advantageous (or half cheating)? Why was it removed for lan? Does it kinda aim for you, with lag compensation and everything? Why not have the same rules for everyone, so timenudge 0 or timenudge -20 non modifiable? Does it have any effect on seeing the opponent before he sees you, which is what Weird complains about ql's netcode? What's your favorite teenage mutant ninja turtle (no cooller option)?

cooller.

edit: damn!

but you didn't edit...caught! (it took me this long to spot...)

Why limited to -20, as in isn't that limiting an advantage so it isn't that much advantageous (or half cheating)?

It's because QL's sv_fps of 40 has a frame every 25 ms. So, -20 takes out the interpolation time between two frames at the cost of clarity/accuracy. As to why it's -20 and not -25, I have no idea.

It was probably limited here as opposed to -50 or somet because of the horrendous side effects it has at that level. Anyone who has used autoTimenudge before it was limited to -20 has gotten a feel for that. It starts to make players appear at like, 4 fps.

Why was it removed for lan?

I'm sure toxjq's complaint about it had a lot to do with that. I'm not sure if there's any deeper reason other than there was a complaint from a top competitor, and that there is really no reason for it at such low pings.

I suspect that it doesn't actually [i]know[i/i] you're on lan, but it knows the client's ping and just disables its mechanism if it's less than a certain number.

Does it kinda aim for you

Not at all.

with lag compensation and everything?

No. Lag compensation is server side, TN is client side.

Why not have the same rules for everyone, so timenudge 0 or timenudge -20 non modifiable?

Because not everyone has the same connection. Those with laggier connections can have the option to use some netcode setting to help them compete with lower pinged players. The option is given in case said players would rather not deal with the side effects, or because an exact algorithm for how much should be used at a given ping isn't clear.

Does it have any effect on seeing the opponent before he sees you, which is what Weird complains about ql's netcode?

In some cases yes, but this comes at the cost of perhaps seeing the enemy where they actually aren't, and seeing them at a lower framerate.

TN 0 is the most certain, smoothest but laggiest. TN -20 is the least certain, least smooth, but least laggiest.

What's your favorite teenage mutant ninja turtle (no cooller option)?

Donatello.

" What's your favorite teenage mutant ninja turtle (no cooller option)?

Donatello. "

Do you like big sticks ?

big purple sticks

mfw :DDDD

Yeah, I talk softly and carry a big stick. : )

I did like Donatello as a kid though, because he was the scientist, and also I liked the Bo. I still have a training Bo that I bought when I was a kid.

You're not entirely correct.....

And the basics as to why that is is:
" with lag compensation and everything?

No. Lag compensation is server side, TN is client side."

Because timenudge alters the time within the packets. So according to the server it will appear as if your ping is less. And therefor there is less lag compensation.
Correct answer should be yes, it reduces the lag compensation by your tn ;)

This then follows through in your thinking about the stuff I complain about. Which basically is that the higher the ping (up to 80) the more profitable it is to play agressive as you will see your opponent before he sees you.
Ofcourse during play there are also sound queues etc., which make this +forward a bit hard to do... But in principle you can see it as this very short description (high ping favors more agression with instant hit weapons).

Because timenudge alters the time within the packets.

Do you have more info about this?

is it ok if I send you a pm? :P

No, it's not. :(

shame... I kinda did though :(

fu

Weird has pages and pages of years of whine and research about this and other similar irrelevant subjects.

I'm waiting till i die for him to switch to the better 80 ping, rather than his marvelous 20 ping. But i guess he won't.. because it wouldn't be fair to the other players. Ping 80 too easy.

So according to the server it will appear as if your ping is less. And therefor there is less lag compensation.

If true, it would constitute a drawback for timenudge as opposed to an advantage.

Which basically is that the higher the ping (up to 80) the more profitable it is to play agressive as you will see your opponent before he sees you.

Why would a higher ping result in you seeing the opponent before he sees you?

If true, it would constitute a drawback for timenudge as opposed to an advantage.

yes that is the case. (at least for instant hit)
But that doesn't mean that the overall gaming experience should suffer. (Imo having both players on auto-tn leads to a much better game experience than the unlagged netcode....)


Why would a higher ping result in you seeing the opponent before he sees you?

First of all it's only true for the agressor.
Because your own possition, on your own pc, is 1/2 of your ping ahaid of the server. (as in your own possition is extrapolated)
In almost all situations in QL your pc actually has the information about the opponents possitions before you enter the room. So they get drawn on your screen when you enter the room (on your screen).
Which gives you a big advantage.

if you would like more details then pay me! (kidding... but I'm kinda tired atm so I might make some small mistakes)

is 1/2 of your ping ahaid of the server.. Which gives you a big advantage.

I must be misunderstanding something.

That would mean that you'd be 40 ms ahead with 80 ms, while a 40 ms player would be 20 ms ahead.

However the 40 ms player is still 40 ms ahead from ping alone, so they'd be a total of 20 ms ahead compared to the 80 ms player. (80-40 = 40, 40 - 20 = 20, 40 - 20 = 20).

Under no circumstance would the higher pinged player get an image sooner if this were the case.

Since TN works against this but affords an equal amount of time off from interpolation it would break even and not make a difference to these numbers.

forget about tn while reading this post.

1) When you, on your pc, walk around a corner you immediately see what is behind it right? (pretty much regardless of ping)

2) Now on the server you'd walk around the corner 1/2 of your ping later. (Because your new possition must be send.)

3) On the nmy's screen you'd walk around the corner 1/2 of your ping + 1/2 of the nmy's ping + some delay by the server (Because the server in turn must send the possition to all players.).

So whenever you're the agressor (as in you walk around the corner and the enemy is in that room) you will actually see that opponent a bit earlier than he sees you.
Ofcourse with any sane netcode this wouldn't matter. But when you perform a lookback on instant hit weapons it starts to matter a lot.

And it matters because you "gain time" on lg / rail, while you don't on any projectile weapon.
How much time you gain depends on your ping + nmy ping.
So whenever you're in a game where the pings are high it pays off to play more agressive with lg / rail.

It's actually a lot more anoying than what I described above, because their lg / rail are also drawn wrong on the opponents screen (by the same margin) which makes it fubar impossible to have any kind of dodging.

1) When you, on your pc, walk around a corner you immediately see what is behind it right? (pretty much regardless of ping)

2) Now on the server you'd walk around the corner 1/2 of your ping later. (Because your new possition must be send.)

Ohh ok. So it's 1/2 ping because of the send time not due to any netcode business.

3) On the nmy's screen you'd walk around the corner 1/2 of your ping + 1/2 of the nmy's ping + some delay by the server (Because the server in turn must send the possition to all players.).

Let's say that player 2 is at RL on ztn, and player 1 is coming towards mega around the corner and suspects player 2 is at RL somewhere.

In this case player 1 is the "aggressor" and player 2 the "enemy".

Isn't it the case that player 1 has to also wait that 1/2 their ping to get player 2's correct position? They have an entry in the PVS but even if it's now drawn it's not correct yet eh?

Also does not player 1 have to take some time to aim the mouse uncertain of player 2's position, whilst player 2 watching the boundary already knows they need to shoot the opening near mega?

Isn't it the case that player 1 has to also wait that 1/2 their ping to get player 2's correct position? They have an entry in the PVS but even if it's now drawn it's not correct yet eh?
<--- unlagged looks back in time. So no player 1 does not need to "wait 1/2 his ping" to get player 2's correct possition. Because player 1 can hit the incorrect possition of player 2 and the server will register this as a hit. (At least during regular play... I'm assuming that the pings remain fairly constant etc.. As there can be some exceptions blabla ;)) .)


Also does not player 1 have to take some time to aim the mouse uncertain of player 2's position, whilst player 2 watching the boundary already knows they need to shoot the opening near mega?
<--- yes player 1 should need time, except that nowadays half of the pro's actually pre-fire where they assume the opponent is at (with lg). Since evil started winning all online cups this way I guess it's been copied.....
In your specific case it might be that the defender still has a better possition (aka his initial aiming should be easier) but that is due to the map layout. On osp netcode the defender was at a huge advantage, in CPMA it was somewhat harder to distinguish and in QL it's prolly 50/50 between the agressor and defender.

Because player 1 can hit the incorrect possition of player 2 and the server will register this as a hit.

Hmm. That would be a problem.

I guess then the issue how do we know for sure that that's how it works?

nowadays half of the pro's actually pre-fire where they assume the opponent is at

That's a skill though, being able to predict ahead.

in QL it's prolly 50/50 between the agressor and defender.

Isn't that ideal?

The last line about 50/50 is just that specific situation.
The thing I tried to show is that in QL the agressor has more oppertunities than in (for example) OSP.

And that's not neccesarily a bad thing imho.


The thing that is bad is that how far this difference of playing is pulled, depends for a large part on the connection.
As in: in games which have a high overall ping it's much easier to play agressive (with lg) than it is in games where overall pings are low.



When in osp you could 'predict your opponent and pre-fire' you would be able to play the same way on multiple pings. If you 'lacked this' then playing on a high ping became more difficult (alround more difficult).
In QL you can use it to actually 'gain options' depending on how bad your connection is. (Imho a bad thing :p)

duuudes this stuff is too complex!
I just want to shoot and kill green robots!





(just kidding, what you wrote is interesting)

A bit late to the party, just take make it clear..
The reason why the aggressor can see the other player first is because of the movement prediction.

The client will show you the last "known" position of your enemy while you are still technically behind a wall (just an example).
This gives a slight advantage to the person with higer ping as the antilag will do it's best to try and "correct" it.


just beating a dead horse here..

that would be a fairly correct way to look at it

Could and probably should flesh it out a bit more but i think i got the message across.

Well.... I thought I got the message across with my netcode writeup..... But I seem to be overestimating people :(

Perhaps you're better suited for this though... I have this habbit of 'talking down to people' which doesn't seem to go well haha :D

Your writeup is ok, it's just a tad bit confusing with how you have written it and at first glance your pictures are just a bunch of lines and q3 screenshots. :D

Just wanted to point out that the movement prediction is a big culprit in all of this as i havn't seen it been said directly/outright by anyone.
You and Lorfa might know this allready too but i doubt everyone outside of the "code crowd" on esr does.

As for you talking down to people, It's most likely something you do unintentionally and is not meant to be taken as such, probably gets worse when you dont get your point across at first. :)
god knows i get snippy with people.. ;D

Agreed.

And well theres no real way to explain stuff that happens over time.
Also the concept of asynchronous actions is a very difficult topic to actually think about for most people.

Perhaps if I was a video editing god I could show it better than pictues. And perhaps theres a better way to show this with a level overview and a player1 view and player2 view of the game-world at the same time.... But I wouldn't know how to pull that off...
I'd know which images I want and what I want to explain with it...... But not a clue how to get the ingame, synchronised, images in a way that people would still find it credible :D

you need 2 PCs running QL at 250FPS (with very similar hardware and monitors preferably 120hz+) and camera, which shoots at least 500FPS.
Then you perform some test actions like showing around the corner and recording it on camera.
Then you analyze movie knowing, that you have 2ms per frame of footage. Knowing this and the FPS on the monitors you will be able to estimate the real delay of certain event on monitors.
For reference watch some "netcode battlenonsense bf4".
However it will be harder to perform for quake since overall delay in this game is very small compared to crappy frostbite engine.

the delay due to netcode isn't "very small" though.

If you want to show how fucked up it is you can just put both pc's at ping 70 and you'll be seeing a 140ms difference in gamestate (as for player possition and instant hit weapons).

But I don't have a camera and stuff.

It would actually work though.... at least to show how it's messed up.... people would still have to have a bit of skill to understand why this effects quake in the way I described, but it would work in showing asynchronosy.

it is not netcode that messed up and creates such delay, thats simply players ping of 70ms which creates most of the delay. Game itself and its netcode in this game create something like 40ms at worst (25ms for next server tick +1/125sec for your client to send data).
and yes unlagged creates some weird stuff like when u hit player behind the wall if he just got behind it. It is the cost for being able to shoot what you see and not predict hitscans. If quake did not have this feature it would be even more dead than it is now. Since nobody today wants to correct their aim according to their ping. I mean new players who were not involved in gameing more than 5 years

you lost me at the thought of "it's not netcode.... it's unlagged".
Unlagged is a type of netcode... theres no distinction between the 2.

what I say is that unlagged + lg is a really really bad combination. The combination of how unlagged works and how the lg works makes sure that online +forward lg is heavily favorable by pretty much everyone. This is enhanced by fucking up your own connection with torrents / bad routing / vpn's etc.
Which completely destroyed quake... because tbh it's not a fun game anymore.


You can also extrapolate players possitions such that people don't have to correct their aim, although the opponent would warp a bit depending on by how much you need to extrapolate his possition.

i did not separate unlagged and netcode in general one is the part of the other ofcourse.
I am not expirienced enough to argue about +forward lg.

but this
"This is enhanced by fucking up your own connection with torrents / bad routing / vpn's etc."
is BS. This shit arises in nearly every game which has some kind of lag compensation. I can tell you i tested it myself. Shitty connection will do you bad job nomatter what. Even in the shittiest netcode ever (frostbite) it is still better to have <30ms stable connection. Sure if u fuck it up with torrents etc u'll get some frags which u wouldnt otherwise but all other aspects suck so hard that you wouldn't want to play.

Theres a difference between gaming experience and results.

The gaming experience suffers for both players whenever someone has a crap connection. This will remain the same no matter what netcode you would implement.

However due to the ql netcode most of the negative gaming experience in quakelive is placed on the person who's connection is good.
Especially issues with irregular uploads (which torrents are extremely good at) are placed on your opponent.
This is because your own possition on your own pc is mainly dominated by your direct input (only if the difference between the server and your own possition is too large will ql reset your possition). So as long as your download is fairly ok you'll see the oppnent fluently and you can aim at him as such. While you will appear to warp all over the place according to your opponent.

Therefor when messing up your own connection... your results will improve.

Nice post.

Can you confirm tankjr can be seen around corners before keel? If so, would you consider that advantageous or cheating?

From a technical perspective, does using zoom with shaft or rail increase accuracy?

Can you confirm tankjr can be seen around corners before keel?

Sure, but this is so minor as to be negligible imo.

It's also definitely an edge case (lol) that this matters. If you need say 180 ms to react properly to a situation, you still won't react properly if the event occurs in 160 ms or 170 ms.

It's similarly incredibly rare that a player trying to hide behind a wall gets so close to the edge of the wall such that they'd be visible if their opponent was using TankJR vs. some other model. It would feel too close to the edge for most players, and there's also the issue of the rocket launcher sticking out of the model.

As far as something being visible vs. obscured, something like drawgun severely dwarfs TankJR vs. keel, and there have been plenty of top players winning with drawgun.

If so, would you consider that advantageous or cheating?

No because it comes with a clear trade-off in that parts of TankJR are outside the hit cylinder.

Also TankJR's sounds are dreadful (much less distinct than keel's) but that's just my opinion.

(TankJR's motions are less distinct than keel's too, but since some players like playerlean 0 perhaps this is a non-issue)

From a technical perspective, does using zoom with shaft or rail increase accuracy?

On some shots yes. More so with the rail than the LG. Zoom is bound to mouse2 in the default config though, so it's really not something one player would know about vs. another.

It also has plenty of trade-offs. Zooming changes the sensitivity so there could be consistency issues. Lower fov makes it easier for enemies to get outside your field of view.

Enemies appear to move faster back and forth on the screen when zoomed (it's easier to hit slower moving targets).

plus for pun

Last obnoxious question: the hitbox in quake live has changed plenty of times. Before that it was common knowledge that keel was the best representation of the hitbox, or tankjr with r_lodbias (was it -2?). Now that the hitbox is a cylinder, that nowadays there's not a big empty space in keel's left side and that after the cylinder patch the hitbox was reduced (once again), which model is the best representation of the hitbox in 2014? Consider lodbias in the answer and thanks for demythifying config values (though I'll always say zoomnudge kinda aims for you)

bones with lodbias 2 = you can be sure when you hit that tiny little piece of calcium your shot will reg OpieOP

Hahahahahahaha :')

which model is the best representation of the hitbox in 2014?

I think it's still keel (lodbias -2).

TankJR is probably still a bit outside the hit cylinder even with lodbias 2.

Anyone who wants to test this in modern times though can do so. With sv_cylinderScale 1.1 (as it is on QL servers), the cylinder is 30 * 1.1 = 33 units in diameter. So if someone makes a map with a cylinder in it that is 33 u in diameter and the player can pass through it (could be semi-transparent) you could take different screenshots with the various models to be sure.

Keep in mind that the movement is still calculated on a rectangular collision box. moving to a cylinder on that too would have screwed up the movement.

Doesn't apply here, it's just how the model appears inside the cylinder (I'm envisioning it looking something like the health regen cylinder on nameless place).

Important that this is mainly a test of the horizontal. The vertical would be tricky because of the headshot 'dome'.

As far as something being visible vs. obscured, something like drawgun severely dwarfs TankJR vs. keel, and there have been plenty of top players winning with drawgun.

Can you elaborate on this Lorfa?

What do you mean by drawgun dwarfs tankjr. If I have drawgun 0, then what difference does it make to an enemy model? How does drawgun effect the outcome of a game other than "seeing" what weapon your using (useless info).

Thanks!

Makes no difference to enemy models.

I mean the gun image covers up more of the screen and would be more likely to cause a miss in something important than the small difference in size between TankJR and Keel.

Yet of course plenty use drawgun and don't appear to be hindered by it.

Nice thanks, have been on drawgun "0" for a while. Couldn't go back if I wanted to.

why am i not logging in to not fucking see your fucktard comments cuz u r on my ignore list, hm? why why why fucker

All those are great questions actually :P

no no no fuck fuck fuck you

RAPHAel

He has 35 constant ping or 45 maximun but very constant ping, no lag spikes or smthing like that.
I think is an advantage not a cheat, just a very unbalanced comand.

I.T...K.I.N.D.A...A.I.M.S...F.O.R...Y.O.U
T..T
.........
K..........K
I..............I
N..............N
D.................D
A....................A
............................
A.........................A
I.............................I
M.............................M
S..................................S
..........................................
F........................................F
O..........................................O
R............................................R
...................................................
Y.................................................Y
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U.......................................................U

10/10 would plus again

nice try but it looks like shit
there is a better  w a y  t o  d o  t h i s 

you mother looks like shit

mah nigga <3

well im experimenting with no timenudge, no big difference really, i still think its not cheat or unfair

I dont think tn has any purpose under like... 70 ms. for me, my lg is more consistent with timenudge and other people say I hack so I'll take that as a compliment to timenudge usage.

what does timenudge do?

go to lofra's site and ctr + f and type cl_timenudge. http://www.regurge.at/ql/Lorfa/ Or you could just scrolldown the page till you find it.

Too many fancy words, doubt he can handle it

ok

Aim for you.

Kinda.

are you "serious"? Oo

no it's not a cheat.

but with your ping it's unnecessary. With this kind of ping (45ms), in some case, it can even be a disadvantage...

timenudge starts to be usefull at 65ms+ AT LEAST.

so if you're playing with 70ms ping then timenudge -5 or -8/10 can help your hitscans a bit. But it can be inconsistent at times.

and if you're playing with a ping above 80ms, like, 100/110ms, then timenudge -20 can help.

afaik, the antilag stops working at 80-85ms, so that's were timenudge starts to be useful.

i guess that they implemented timenudge to help out people with high pings (75ms+), like i said, when the antilag stops working (80ms+), then you still have timenudge to compensate a bit

I seem to be extremely difficult to understand....
I've explained this stuff multiple times already, just go look for it :p

you should sell e-books about it 99 cents a piece

so if I ask money for general knowledge... people might educate themselves??
Interresting that you guys don't want to do that for free..

It's just a small opportunity for you that he suggested, but it is very nice that you don't want to profit from people's ignorance.

I'm not really interrested in 'making money'. It's just a side effect of me helping society imho.

he's got 99 cents and an e-book gone wrong

How about you drop a link to the man?

www.google.com/search?q=weird+netcode+timenudge+esr

very maybe this only works for me because I'm weird.... But I guess that it's so unique that it's bound to work for everyone

I seem to be extremely difficult to understand....

Correct! 1) Subject matter is complex, confusing and with lot's of nuances. 2) You English writing skills are very bad. At least as soon as you start trying to explain this stuff. Combine the two and yes: you are extremely difficult to understand.

2) You English writing skills are very bad.

I'd say my English writing skills are better than yours. But that is beside the point really.

Just in case: it's not just about spelling errors, correct grammar and punctuation. These obviously help as well, but it's also about writing sentences that don't look like cryptogram puzzles. And about writing explanations which are understandable for somebody who is not in your head and who does not already know everything you know.

in order to understand this problem you need to have a basic grasp of server-client synchronisation problems.

If I say "timenudge should reduce the amount of unlagged linearly" I would be correct and completely understandable.
But then you run into idiots who just say: "You're wrong!" and they get plussed.... Then I explain why I am right, and nobody can understand that except people who actually know what they are talking about.
But people with a clue never disagree with me.... so..... kinda difficult to explain really complex issues to people who haven't finished highschool :p

now now, don't get butthurt!

"But people with a clue never disagree with me"

That's probably because you define "people who have a clue" as people who don't disagree with you

hmmmmmm, nope.
There are still a ton of people who don't disagree with me yet still don't have a clue.

I actually mean people who understand synchronisation problems...

timenudge makes you hit more lg for sure, while not a cheat youre at a disadvantage vs someone using it. hate it

serious/goya is a cheat. Timenudge is not.

harosho lg is cheat!

Only on Tuesdays....

finally!:)

big advantage
i hope reflex doesn't allow it

or reborn

ZOOM NUDGE

It depends on how you aim.

Timenudge I noticed when I use the railgun makes their hitbox at bit more where they actually are, except it's a lot less predictible.
TImenudge 0 is just their hitbox constantly lagging behind but predictably.

this is SO true, after removing the timenudge after years of use, im noticing i hit rails, when the enemy already passed through the place im aiming, its weird, like, ok, maybe i should shot there anyway maybe will hit

For consistency's sake I don't use timenudge, I used to have to play at 120+ ms all the time, I realised that I was better off predicting mentally and physically pre-aiming than relying on timenudge, also, I quite enjoyed playing OSP with those pings and having my dodge work against hitscan weapons because you actually have to pre-aim even with 10ms or rather at 10ms if you miss, you actually miss, no compensation.

People who bitch about timenudge use, use it themselves. It is known.

weird already explained the advantages of using it. luckily not many people use it because they do not understand how it works.

for me, it changes the feeling of my sensitivity and all that. but my second name is placebo, so keep testing

placebo domingo

placido effect

science bitch

yesterday i was playing quake3 osp and did look up /players on the server

some guy had timenudge way below -20 & snaps 60 ...

is this a way to mess up ur connection ?

what causes warping, and could you make it with network settings ?

I tried to mess up my cablke connection, all it did on openarena was my ping was getting lower :lol:

are people still playing osp?

It is no cheat at all and it is only client side,

oh and inb4weird: no there is no deep conspiracy secret code, again its only clientside.

inb4weird ver2 if needed: it is clientside weird, please stop this, just no.

think I covered enough things.

you've covered this enough..... right.....
IT'S ONLY CLIENTSIDE WEIRD IS A MORON!
I'VE SAID IT ALL!


I agree that tn is not a cheat, but to say that in ql it's client side only is strange.

for you maybe!

I dunno, considering what Weird enlightened us about it is kind of UNEQUAL if you have players with different pings and timenudge.

What quake does is it takes your disadvantage (high ping) and overcompensates it in a sense by giving you an advantage if you use hitscan-weapons. however, your rockets are completely crap so its neither here nor there i guess.

And it seems like it's a matter of not_many_ms.
No one cares. And by no one I mean I don't care OpieOP

"What quake does is it takes your disadvantage (high ping) and overcompensates it in a sense by giving you an advantage if you use hitscan-weapons"

stuff like this is so... insulting to hear for a hpb player. I mean you could make a lpb think you are onto something but don't bother telling me....

that you, and others, seem to think I'm saying that is strange.

It favors a certain playstyle.
As in if you're a hpb you are rewarded for playing agressive with lg.

Similarly if you're playing against a hpb it's also rewarded to play agressive with lg.


Now what's "not nice about this" is that when the average pings are high the +forward +lg >> all other playstyles.

Therefor if you're a non agressive player on a low ping, it absolutely sucks to play against a hpb who +forwards with lg. Because your playstyle is weak due to how the netcode of the game works.
While on low ping vs low ping your game plan might be the best there is.

sigh, yet the same people still win and none of em talk about this.

because they don't understand the issue.

I understood that I lost because of this and I refused to play agressive because (imho) the game is bugged.
So I stopped playing.

Doesn't mean that the game is suddenly fixed, it just means it's not my problem anymore.
That I still tell people how it works is such that perhaps someday they will fix it, and perhaps other players will actually learn what quake was about back in the old days.

yeah only you understand the issue.

of course.

well you certainly don't.

that makes you correct then?

but to catch your bait anyway: I certainly know more about playing as a hpb then you do.

I'm quite sure you don't.

But if you don't trust me on this we can play on whatever ping setting you want, and within 3 games I'll beat you.
And do note that I haven't played any quake for more than a month and have probably only played around 4 hours total in the past half year.

I've actually played with ping higher than 100 for more than 4 years. (across the ages, most of this back in the old days though).
And I have no problem playing even japanese or australian players while I'm on pings that only show up on my screen as 999.

I've also done fairly well in usa tournaments as well (top4 - top16 in about 4 of the 6 I played in I think.. I could be wrong that it's 3 out of 7 or something it was a while back :p).

Now if you still think you have more experience than me on this... I'd be suprised.
Perhaps you have more experience as a braindead +forward lg player than me, because I've always refused to play that way. But you definitely don't know how to deal with high pings better than I do.

-----
and no that you're an idiot doesn't mean I'm smart. It just disqualifies you from the argument. Unless ofcourse you actually start discussing this in a normal way.
I'm always up for talking about it in a normal way... but you go: "I don't understand this, fuck it weird is bashing hpb's! I am a hpb!!! Weird is a horrible person!!!!!!

300 ping, too much hay on ur fork Weird :P

lol this is getting sad as usual, don't kid yourself about knowing how to play as a hpb.

also your standings in any tourney has nothing to do with this discussion, neither does a decade ago playing experience, which i doubt you played competetive in any case, even if it were it was no ql.

hmm what else, beating me in duel has nothing to do with this argument either, beating me proves nothing. heck the whole issue is that you cant beat the best players so you have to grab on to some excuse like this.

That should be enough understanding about you.

Right so me doing well in usa tournaments on ping 120 - 150 in QL shows that I know nothing of playing as a hpb.

Me playing kinda toe to toe with people who are in japan sais nothing about my skill on high pings?

The only thing that sais a lot about my skill on high ping is that I can't beat Evil when he's on ping 70?
I don't follow your logic... or well rather... you're not making any sense.


I don't say that the netcode is shit because I can't deal with it. I say it's shit because it's shit.
I've said so before I became a 'known name' as duel player in QL and I'll continue to say so.

And yes I've played pretty competitively since 2002. But mainly in TDM / CTF in teams which were mid-table of the highest division(s).
But apparently it's more important for you to insult me rather than actually try to understand wtf I'm saying.

I bet you played alot vs japanese and usa players! and probably vs the best of them!


you bet I am insulting you because I don't really believe you.

right....
So you know for certain that I'm a crap player on high ping and know nothing on how to play at a high ping either.
But you know absolutely nothing about my games on high ping.

Great argumentation.
Please continue thinking that I am opposing this current netcode because it makes me lose games.... (rofl)

think you confuse me for someone who can get derailed of the questions he asks, again what tourneys are these you speak of and what proper player did you play against with high ping.


on second thought, fuck it. You wasted whatever talent you had on this game by not being able to cope at high level play so you grabbed on some imaginary netcode problem that only you talk about, ever. simple truth

I think you're confusing yourself with someone who has asked me a question.

I don't really remember the names of online cups.
The format was that each week there was a cup. (for like 50$ or 100$ first prize)
And at the end of 8 weeks they had a tournament where the top8 were invited.
Was shoutcasted by jahar / fishsticks. I think that jahar was actually also in the organisation of the cup? (not entirely sure)

It's prolly from somewhere near summer 2011/2012.
I lost to zero4 in a semifinal by quite a large score on tourney4... But before that I think I took down either socrates or chaoticz. I'm not that good with names hehe :D

doubt it was either of those 2 since socrates quit way before that and chao too I think.

Also, ofc I asked you a question, my unedited comment is up there...

Anyways what does it matter, I still think you are trying to convince yourself that you couldnt make it to the top of the food chain because of this netcode illusion rather then your own shortcoming.

you're free to think that.
But could you stop actively announcing what your imaginairy bullshit opinion about me is?

And yes your unedited comments are up there... I've read them. Have you?
Because nowhere in your incoherent made up shitstorm of hidden insults have you questioned my hpb's results untill comment #112.

In all fairness though.... you're a dellusional idiotic angry fucked up moron who has issues with me for being a nice person.

hah guess I must be that because I don't Dodge around the issue and tell you your problem, sureeeee. Way to prove me wrong by being so aggressive and angry about it lol.

Stop acting like you have any control over this debate, you clearly don't read what I write if you think if it is incoherent, in fact you just say so because you don't like what I say, simple truth.

you clearly don't write what you mean to write. Whole different story.

Just to be sure... What is my problem?
You seem to have told me, but I am obviously too retarded to understand you. So please explain to me what my problem is?
Do note that I've been inactive as a player since dhs 2012 (actually kinda before that as well but let's take dhs 2012).

Also what "simple truth" are you on about that I don't like??


I'm not easy to piss off, but after like 3 years of continuously wasting my time with incoherent bullshit postings as replies, you've seem to have pulled it off!
I can't stand ignorance at a normal level but you pulled it all the way into astronomically crap proportions.

"bla bla bla I quit because of netcode" is your excuse for the simple truth of "I could not cope with all the different play styles and aimwhoring"

no need to write alot. I say the above everytime but for some reason you avoid it and write me back an essay.

I stopped because I didn't enjoy playing vs certain styles. And those styles became dominant in quake.

I could beat people who were playing like that just as well as I could beat other similar skilled people who played a different way.
But I don't enjoy it.

Mainly I didn't enjoy it because it felt as if I had to change my playstyle vs them in a way that I wasn't comfortable with (I did it in quite a few officials though and with decent results...)

good that you finally confessed, and now let the netcode alone.

confessed??
Confessed to what?

And what does it matter why I stopped playing? The netcode didn't change because I stopped. It's still the same piece of crap it was before. And it should be criticized as such.

confessed why you actually don't like the game anymore, yet in other posts make it look like it's the fault of the bad netcode.

I don't "not like the game" it's just that vs some opponents it's much more enjoyable than vs others.
I never "played quake to compete" I just "competed because the games were fun". Similarly I never 'practised' or 'analysed demos' etc.
Nowadays the way people play is way too mechanical for me... I don't really like this way of playing.

That being said theres a huge gap between "the game is not fun" and "the netcode is shit".


That (also) being said.... The netcode and the playing styles are somewhat intertwined, the netcode allows forces people to play like this.
I said back in 09 (privately to iD-software) that the game would shift more and more towards where it is now partially as a result of the netcode.

In order to be really good at any game... You have to find some "optimum" with regards to all of the games properties. For instance if rail did 85dmg then in the long run the game would slightly shift towards more rail being used. If the rail would insta kill the opponent then the game would shift towards rail a lot.
Now in quake if we include netcode into the 'game properties'.... The "optimum" for people who have good hitscan weapons is to play on an highly unstable ping between 45 and 60. And to play agressive while doing so.
And the way to "counter this play" is to.... play agressive against them while using hitscan weapons.

There is not other valid way to increase your chances. You don't have to alter your connection yourself.... but because of how everything works this is the only solution.

The problem is! That the optimum for the opponent shifts.
I'm not a good aimer.... And I'll prolly never will be unless I put in 'practise'. But the current netcode gives my opponent a tool to force me to having to play agressive with lg in order to win.

But it's a very subtle and hard to explain concept.
But you could look at it like this:
If the total ping in a game is 90 and play agressive with lg then you'll have a 10% higher chance of winning the fight than you would have if you did the same agressive move on ping 0.
If the total ping in a game is 90 and you play defensive then you'll have a 15% lower chance of winning the fight than you would have on ping 0.

These %'s go up as the average ping increases (untill either player hits ping 80 at which point he's screwed ;p).

So every player on earth would learn that he should overcommit relative to lan. And that is exactly what is happening.
And this is not the fault of any player... because the player just plays near the optimal way of playing.

It's also not the case that if I'm on ping 30 I'm at a disadvantage because my ping is low. (that's complete bs :p)
The netcode is just shit because the optimal way of playing depends on the average pings of players.

Now this sucks for me personally because I prefer to play with fairly little aggression on instant hit weapons. And the only way possible is to 'increase ping' (can't go lower ping than lan ;p) so the game either is "greatly balanced" or "shifted towards more agression".
But that this is crap for me doesn't matter. (ofcourse it mattered to me for a while because QL didn't have any lan options and thus I felt like I could never show my true skill)


Hmmmm.... I'm still not very good with words :p
I hope you understand what I mean hehe :D

alrighty then :D

You're just wrong. Please stop.

right.....
that's a great argument.
And it's actually the only argument given while I can show how it works. That you don't comprehend my explanation.... well that's a different story :D

I'm not here to argue... it's pointless. Don't think people disagree with you because they don't understand.

so I should assume that you know I'm wrong because you're a genius.
And ofcourse I am wrong on this.... I've only studied this (synchronuos systems (among other topics ofcourse)) on the university.

I think it's much more likely that you don't want to argue... because you don't have a single valid argument.
Feel free to study math for several years then focus on synchronous systems for half a year and try to find any flaw in what I've said.

ehh, after playing a bit of OSP at 150ms, I kinda dislike QL's hitscan netcode

wat.

cmon now, osp is sluggish. cpma > ql > osp > vanilla =p

Was more to do with the fact that my dodging did something even though the opponent had 12ms and I had 150ms, felt smooth as butter too, but was playing with sv_fps 60.

ohh sv_fps 60 is cwazy. fuck, i remember playing on servers with that on 20, cant even believe they did that back then x_x

sv_fps 20 on lan, practise your rockets, then jump on an sv_fps 40 server online with 20ms ping and aim the same.

nah thatl just put me off :P

i play best in chaos, argueing with people, and drinking too much fake redbull. tldr CA

CA makes my brain hurt, I think my IQ drops below 0 for a few hours after I play CA, then it slowly goes back to whatever is normal.

yes

It definitely is a cheat ffs !
After more than 10 years you could at least admit it...


cleaner_le_magnifique

magnificent janitor?

i just do not understand why some rails get through the guy and there is no hit innit. does TN have something to do with it? or just ping?

another situation, does FPS interfere with it too?

i play quakelive in a macmini, my FPS drops at times, like when i face the opponent it drops to 100-120 fps, then after it alters and comes back to 250, and i also have a dramatic ping latency that i don't get it yet, sometimes it shuffles from 70-80ms - to - 100-120ms.

about the internet, I'm trying to fix it get another account with other companies etc, but the point is if FPS plus ping has influence on hitting the opponent.

if you drop to 100fps during fights i would advice just sticking to 125fps max instead since you will notice it less on mousefeel and smoothness.

question:
i just do not understand why some rails get through the guy and there is no hit innit

answer
1. when i face the opponent it drops to 100-120 fps,
2. sometimes it shuffles from 70-80ms - to - 100-120ms.


little hint on 2nd part - unlagged stops working on ~80ms and you have to compensate for your ping over this value


" if FPS plus ping has influence on hitting the opponent."
horow

and do not forget, that your rail beam is percieved with delay, so even though it might seem like you hit, your crosshair could be outside of enemy model at the moment your PC sent fire report.

man even when i take MH and RA, sometimes i go to the fight and i LISTEN that i take the item, and when i see i hadn't taken it and i die, lol, i know that i went first and the opponent gets the item after and it bugs lol bad netcode :)

cg_predictitempickups or similar 0
also it probably looked different from the other players pov?

no, only in my pov. i also use 120 pov, does it have any impact on it?

fov=field of view
pov=point of view

sorry i messed it, yes i got it actually, 120 _fov_ hehe

Rails go through on LAN as well on TN 0 and stable 250 FPS. It's just the shitty netcode

yeah i think i have realized that

just watch linkin stream, you will get the answer.

hi l1nkja
:D

Unless something has changed since my abcense from quake the other players can't know for sure if you are using timenudge and it's not detectable to the eye.

So unless you told the argentinian community that you use it they won't even notice it. But since you did exactly that, and since it's such a small community, i guess you will have an hard time finding games.

It's not a cheat since it's allowed to use. But good luck convincing them of that.

you can tell if you spectate someone with lagometer 2 if their ping is on the lagometer 16 but ingame its 38 you know they use timenudge

SHEIIIIT... hahaha thanks for the info!

And is it possible to see that with a demo? D:

Oh been playing for a long time and didn't know that, interesting. Well i never cared much about if people are playing with it or not.. so many russians out there.

yes

I have unfortunately started to use timenudge lately as I'm closing in on 70 ping with the piece of shit connection I have. Lagometer shows ~50, everyone is teleporting around, I get hit by anything i try to dodge and everything feels awful to the point that I'm even considering stopping playing Quake casually after...what.. 13 years? :(

That Russian VPN might not be such a bad idea after all.

http://okayfreedom.com/

whoever needs a good and free vpn client. ping sometimes goes crazy for me coz of routing issues with my provider to QL servers same goes for jwzr and mentor. this vpn client solves it and brings us back to a stable 30 ping to germany. tested nearly all nationalities to different server locations and it works great.

Thanks, i'll try that.

Gave incloak a try but could not get below 150 ping.

it's made for gaming in comparison to many other vpn clients who are just made to hide your IP and are made for browsing only. only downside is the free version is limited to 500 MB which shouldn't be a big problem as long as you're only using it for playing quake since it doesn't need nearly no traffic at all. so you should be fine for a couple of months

Cool, I tried it out and it took my like 2-3 minutes to get it running with a german identity.

Not getting a fantastic ping (48-50) but considering what a difference 50 is to 70 in Quake it is a huge improvement.

Thanks again :)

I guess it's hard for someone who is used to low ping but timenudge actually makes the hit response alot better.

It makes the game alot less smoother and that "teleporting around" feeling is really there and annoying, but i used to use it anyways on ping 55 to 80.

I've never been used to low ping but i always prefered having a smoother experience... until i got 70 ping :)
The VPN i got above worked really good btw... getting 40-55 ping on german servers now.

Just need to remember to not stream twitch or something similar as it has that 500MB limit.

Hum.. i thought you used to play on like 30 ping or so.. but i'm not sure was a long time ago.

Yes, 40-55 is quite acceptable.

I had a fiber connection for a shorter time when i studied many years ago :) I sometimes get decent ping to swedish servers but find myself getting connection interrupted so that's why i'm stuck on the german servers.

240/500MB used :*(

Yes.