Horrible idea to do this through a esr poll, sry.

gonna explain why or anything?

Because the majority of voters don't play ql duel, let alone go to Adroits.

The voters will be those who watch Adroits. Those who watch ultimately determine the success of the tournament. The tournament needs maps which people want to watch, which shall be decided by voting majority.

Yeah, and then admins get to pick map to put in. :DP

The tournament needs players and I can only speak for myself that I won't come without the 5 maps above. No need to waste money and time on shit like dm6 just because some viewers want to see it.

Hard enough to practice these 5 maps, gl practicing something totally new like t4 and facing a q3 veteran in the tourney.

I find this comment really worrying tbh. How can the PAYING customers be second priority? the people practising and paying for flights, hotels, trains everything should come first. I'm with ffx on this, i wont be coming if it isn't that map pool or at max 1 map change.

This is also about reviving Quake and making the game just a tiny bit more sustainable at least. If we take this mentality every time there is a LAN event on - then the population of people interested in turning up to these events will slowly wittle down. If we're only going to use one map pool ever then people who come to the game interested in playing competitively will shortly leave because they realise there is no competition vs people who've played some of the maps for many years.

In my opinion it's tiring to see so many people who can't deal with change in certain aspects of competitive play, no one really wants to actually put any effort in to learning new things - as a pose to refining old skills.

If we're going to use old maps we're going to see old results. I'm sure many others will be interested in playing other maps and being part of something new and refreshing within the scene - if you don't want to participate then it's your loss.

So reviving quake is about not listening to the players? you act like we have the same map list for years and years. Well I didn't play quake3 only quakelive and the map list has been constantly changing. Do you know how frustrating it is to learn a map pool just for them to change everything as soon as you get comfortable?

We're not talking about new maps here anyway, just old regurgitated shit. When I started, the map list was dm6, t9, t7, dm13 ztn for about 6months then they changed it to hub, t4, hektik, dism, t7, dm13, ztn. Adding a bunch of old school maps so q3ers had a huge advantage as usual. It's like constantly changing the goal posts.

How is having a huge map list with always different maps good for spectators exactly? imagine you're some cs guy trying to watch quake, everytime you tune in it's a different fuckin map. you don't see them changing football pitches and tennis courts every few months.

"you don't see them changing football pitches and tennis courts every few months."
You're not making sense.

And there are maps like Sorrow and Concrete Palace who are actually pretty good maps - but they were never played for no good reason.

I'll make it simple for you then. If I watch cricket or tennis or any sport today and I get an understanding of it. If I watch it tomorrow or next year or 10 years from now the game will be exactly the same.

Yet in quake if you watch 1 lan event the very next one has different maps and it's very hard to follow. cs never changed map list either and that has shit loads of spectators compared to quake. When i watched painkiller i didn't give a fuck if it was dm_sacred over and over again I found it interesting.

Overall spectators aren't that bothered about the maps yet the players are told, "here go practice _4_ different maps" and It's not as if there are 4 good new maps to bring in.

stop comparing this to real sports, it's quite different. if you're so bothered about it then just dont sign up

I expected more of you zoot, kronic actually made a bunch of good points, I'd like to hear why you don't agree with them rather then "It's different, get lost".

then read my other replies

I'm asuming with other replies you mean the comment you left in response to kronic earlier ranting at how players don't want to try new maps. Then kronic commented listing arguments as to why new maps arent necessarily a good thing. To which you basicly told him to fuck off. Not sure what I'm missing here

from what i've seen so far, there are no compelling reasons to keep the map pool as it is.

-it's unfair to the players who invested a lot of time into learning the current maps.
-it's not good for casual spectators who only watch the big events and maybe tried playing quake a few times.
-the level of play would be lower because many players wouldnt be able to practise the new maps as well as tdm in the summer.
-the map pool is the way it is for a reason - most players like it. changing it drasticly would make the event less attractive to them.

there are a few

There are approximately 3 months between now and the tournament, there is plenty of time to practice. The map pool is the way it is because it's the most recent one, it hasn't been like it for more than 6 months so please stop saying things as if it's written in stone.

It also isn't being changed drastically, it's merely being changed.

Yea, removing two current maps and adding 4 new ones isn't drastic at all. And during summer you typically have much less time to practise because of vacation/outside activities (not to mention it's not gonna be 3 months because nothing has been announced yet).

read fraze's reply.

Wasn't really going to reply to that because it's really incoherent but ok.

incoherent to who? anyone who can read english properly can read that and undertsand it, unless ur one of them gramma nazis cause u cant think of a valid argument. who can be fucked wording 100 percent properly when it literally doesnt matter!

It's a fucking pain in the ass to read what you write because you use no capitalization, paragraphs, have tonns of typos and try to make 3 different points in one sentence. If you're not taking the effort to make your posts readable I don't see why I should be taking them seriously.

it is readable though... i just try to do it as fast as i can etc cause its too much effort to waste time making it rly presentable when it honestly makes no difference, what is this a fucking english course at uni? No this is a forum mostly with 1000 trolls on every thread. If u get annoyed reading my posts then u must not read too many on here :>

He is right. Flashwhore.

who, me or him? also fking flash is a fucking faggot, jangbi now fav scbw player of all time haha

He, twister, is right about your posts. And you're such a glory hunter. If you could you'd be a ManU fan ^^

haha im sure my english is better than p much anyones having english as my first and only language and having done many classes including university shit for english.. but online i just type as fast as i can trying to get points across with as little effort as i can, so usually it comes out a little off, but still very much readable. only people who try to pick on spelling or grammar would ever mention about it tbh, typical german though eh ;) and manu?? been going for them since i was a kid m8 haha

Rofl, it's not your grammar, but how you present it. Use some paragraphs, punctuation marks and capitalised first letters because it's fucking pain to read, specially if you write a post which has enough length for 24 rows. This way people actually think about your points, not about where one starts and other ends AND all the effort doesn't go into keeping track. This helps in two ways: a) more people actually will read it and b) you won't look like a fucking ManU fan.

PS! The ManU thing was so logical because only ManUfags like hektik and tox :D

hah m8... well im pretty sure u got what i meant, and so did twister.. so ;) clearly dont matter too much.

> haha im sure my english is better than p much anyones
> having english as my first and only language
> and having done many classes including university shit for english.

They are right. Your posts are hard to read. cba. Plus you're ignorant and acting like a jerk when you write stuff like that above. Maybe try learning another language before you pull out that arrogance.

But its true though.. just like u cba too read my posts, I 'cba' to write it any better than it needs to be. Its not really arrogance when its true, is it arrogant for me to say that im probably better than you at quake live even if u just beat me in a duel cause I was not trying my hardest? No it is not. Similarly to this I am not trying to make my posts 100 percent perfect or even close to it, so its not arrogant for me to say that im better at English than most people here because im sure if I tried to make it perfect I could. All I can think of, is that their English skills are not that great perhaps, so they have trouble reading it. ;) Anyway old thread is old, so good day to you sir.

just read over it and didn't have a problem reading it (wasn't as easy to read as other posts ofc... but still no problem)

bunch of good points such as cs is better or gets more viewers cause of the map pool? l0l, starcraft broodwar changes maps EVERY SINGLE COMPETITION and even changes map pool mid competition sometimes, yet its way more spectators than quake will ever have. also with the tennis court one, at the aussie open a few years ago they changed surfaces and loads of cunts complained, and also lots were in favour. at the end of the day, the lan or comp or whatever this is organisers have decided that spectators and such should take precidence, and the players will have to learn 1-2 new maps (although i also agree that there is not another 4 good maps to switch in) besides the point, u cant say quake is worse compared to other games etc because of, because its alot different. tldr, gtfo it dont go if u dont like maps tbh

You should try understanding the point then instead of making absurd comparisons. The point is that there are a lot of players in other games (cs, starcraft etc) who play quake casually - maybe duels with friends or some free for all once a year. You wouldn't believe how many people there are who pretty much don't play quake but still know ztn/dm6. This is why it's good to have a bunch of these old maps stay in the pool so that even the casual spectators can slowly get to know and understand the game rather than be thrown off by new maps every time.

Comparing quake to starcraft is ridiculous because in quake without knowing the map you won't understand a thing even as an experienced player because mapknowledge is an integral part of the game. In starcraft you can see the whole map by looking at the overview once. Not having played the map doesn't harm your spectating ability in the slightest.

Generally for attracting new players from streams of big events and such I think it would be very advantageous to have a fixed mappool for quake. Of course I agree that to active players it would be nice to see something different.

who cares about the 50 spectators world wide that know ztn/dm6 from 10 years ago when they had a few duels ever week or so, we need new spectators not getting the old ones back (who are probably past the age of ever getting back into the game if they played it 10 years ago) and to do this, adroits or whatever have decided to introduce new maps that probably dont get played, to get spectators in. it may work might not, but its not as if this is a MAJOR lan comp like qcon or something (which has a weird pool for the open comp anyway) also how is showing that we play the same maps from 10 years ago gonna get new guys into the game? if u think of other games such as scbw, original maps like lost temple or whatever doesnt get a look in nowadays, but atm 3/5 maps you want in the pool are 10 years old or more. to attract new players u want fresh new maps tbh, and a few average cunts being upset such as you, kronic or even fucking me (who wouldnt care toooo much about map pool anyway) doesnt matter when there is a bigger picture than what a few randoms who wont win think. If i go to a stream to watch quake, its to watch cypher or rapha etc play, and they wont complain about map pool, ESPECIALLY when its 3 months or whatever until the comp starts. ANyway what kinda random noob is gonna understand the game just watching it anyway. also in sc map knowledge is very important also (from what ive read in interviews atleast, as different maps are good for different races, {almost comparble to different playstyles?}) anyway if ur not gonna go to the comp then quit complainging and having an opinion, cause regardless of what happens it will be good for quake to have a comp, and experiment with new maps!

didnt read

You think the success of CS comes from only playing the same five maps over and over? Remember the success of the CPL maps in CS.

Tell me a valid reason not to introduce four new maps into the map pool, except for "it's too much to practice :'("

Tell me a valid reason to change the map pool so drastically. There isn't one.

I don't remember people shouting for bf and dism to be showed on stream. So apart from hektik there really isnt any new or underplayed maps that anyone wants to see or play.

and it IS too much to practice especially with 7 maps. If it's just a 5 map pool then it's not as bad. As it appears right now the newest map is being dropped and there aren't any new maps to replace it with.

Tell me a valid reason to change the map pool so drastically. There isn't one.

People want interesting games?

Yeah, and imo this helps the overall meta game. ZTN doesn't really promote new, exciting ways to play Quake.

But dm6 and t9 does :D. Lmao

Sorrow? Concrete Palace? Hektik hasn't been overplayed.

lol

I agree, but I don't neccessarily think it should be the current map pool that we settle on. However, settling on a map pool is important for the reasons you stated. I'm of the opinion that you either change map pools constantly, with brand new maps for every major tournament, which can't happen in QL, or you keep things the same and provide some stability for players and viewers.

Playing brand new maps every major tournament would be a brutally testing experience for top players, but unfortunately is completely unrealistic. So, I'd rather see the same maps being played so that players get the opportunity to push the gameplay on those maps to the limit, and then beyond those limits, something that can't happen with constantly changing map pools, or with oversized map pools.

totally agree, i won't be coming either if they change the pool. the players should be frist priority

but they are trying to get more players into quake, so therefore the current players shouldnt come first. (u can argue that its not the correct way to do it, but ye i can see where they are coming from)

how can changing the map pool get new players into quake? i'd say if we keep this pool, new players will have 5 maps to focus on, if it keeps changing they have even more to learn.

i guess people will say 'replace the old q3 maps with new maps', but there aren't really any other good non-premium maps than dm13 ztn and t7. maybe t9 but i wouldn't sacrifice any of the given maps for it. so if they remove the old maps from the pool, it will probably be replaced with premium maps. and i dont think that's a good thing. now at least we see both premium and non premium players practicing with each other on these 3 maps.

think even when those maps are not in any pools theyed still be played (ztn atleast), and i never said that it would, i just said thats why they did it. still think that pro/prem should not come into consideration when map choosing though, hektik should take over ztn/dm13 then its a bit better.

i think you should take it into consideration, the more premium maps get its way into the map pool, the more premium players will only practice against other prems, instead of sometimes playing on standard severs as well.

this means that the community would split up even further, which is not good for quake. and the whole point of changing the map pool would be to attract new players? how can you attract players with maps they probably won't even be able to play (considering new players won't buy premium in the first couple of months of playing)

ye but the only way to completely resolve such an issue would be to make all maps available to non paying customers which obviously not gonna happen, so the best way to get new guys into the game would be have the map pool as, ztn dm13 dm6 t9 t7 sorta thing? which isnt gonna make older players too happy, so u have to not give everyone what they want, so the admins for this comp needa choose, and obv they have chosen what they think is best

I don't think we should create a map pool focusing on weither they're premium or free, but on what's good for the competitive scene and community.

so you care about the competitive scene all of a sudden?

so we'll never ever ever change the mappool ? Sorry I don't wanna keep playing quakelive if we have to stick to this shit pool forever.

Toxicity sucks and deserves out, Hektik owns and deserves in. Sick of toxicishit. Really.

sick of reading u hating on tox in every post but can't recall u ever giving a single arguement. and what's so good about hektik?

you fail at reading then.

This is stupid.
We all know Bloodrun is by far the most played and most liked map.
Now it's 2nd in the poll and will be removed.
If you really need to change the mappool and want to make a poll on ESR, people need to vote for their favourite maps and the two least favourite maps will be removed.

you're suggesting we do essentially the same idea..

if bloodrun is the most liked map then why is it going in the right direction to be eliminated from the map pool?

Because its also one of the most hated maps?
This poll is about the least liked maps when it should be about the most liked maps.

Currently I imagine it goes like this:

10 players vote, 5 like ztn, 3 like t7, 2 like aerowalk;
t7 and aerowalk players hate ztn so ztn gets 5 minus points;
5 ztn players dislike t7 or aerowalk so the 5 minus points get divided between t7 and aerowalk. So for example now we have:

ztn=-5
t7=-3
aerowalk=-2
ztn would get kicked.

If players voted for the map they liked then it would be:
ztn=+5
t7=+3
aw=+2
aerowalk would get kicked.

I think it's safe to say that ztn is universally disliked in the minority but ztn players vary their most hated map. So 2 different polls get 2 different results, but both should show the least popular? Least popular=the least played. So how exactly current vote shows the least popular map?

I don't really care which kind of method you use, because I would be more than happy to play some completely new maps (fuck t9 and hektik - it gets only pushed by demon's spam anyways), but I would you to use the correct terms.

Oh and this is pretty neat example how poll organisers can pretty much decide which maps get dropped.

Why didn't you make a poll where voters could pick the 3 maps that they would like to be kept in? This is what you essentially want.

TL;DR - This poll is flawed.

Not really flawed, we're not tricking anyone in to voting for anything. If lots of people hate bloodrun, then why should they be forced to play it the same way as if the ztn lovers voted for it as their favourite?

Look at my example. Currently ztn gets dropped which means that 50% of the playerbase gets their map dropped and 50% gets their map kept. If it was voting for your favourite then 80% would have their map in the game. It's not so black and white, but I hope you get the idea.

And think about the russian playerbase which is 65%+ ztn. Are they involved in this vote?

no, i understand what you're saying. they can be involved if they want to be.

I think it's best to be constructive about this all, because it isn't going to change. If people clearly hate watching and playing ztn, and they want to go out of the map pool - then it's gonna happen (or what ever maps go out).

Being constructive - the pollstyle should have been voting for the top3 you want in. And I am not against the perspective of new maps, just the way this poll ignores, what it wants to achieve. ATM the minority decides.

they can be involved if they want to be.

How amateur is this. We are talking about monolingual playerbase who has to use google translate to even speak on this site, yet makes pretty much 50% or more of the players playing duel. I doubt that they even know something like this is going on. And if they saw this poll without understanding it, they would automatically vote for their favourite.

that's why they have their own community leaders who can inform their followers about where to go and what to do with the vote.

Have the organisers of this poll contacted the leaders of those communities?

no idea, although I think they are aware - i'll look in to it :)

Sry zoot, but by your logic, why not just make the poll on the quakelive forums? I'm pretty sure that if that were to happen we'd have dm17 in there. Also just because the Russian community theoretically could be informed by the by their community leaders about this poll and take a fair part in it doesn't mean they will.

ok but also bare in mind that the russian community will be represented by the vast minority of players in the duel cup. so I hope that at least the right proportional amount will see this.

After hearing you talk about this more in today's zotac cup (just watched the VODs) and thinking about it, I actually might think it could be a good idea, esspecially if you do some cups (maybe give some free invites for the lan as prizes) to test some of the new maps considered first. I would still suggest only replacing one map though and if possible, bring in a map that's not been played and dropped from the map pool already before.

I do think that it is only necessary to make sure the majority of the attending players are satisfied with any map pool changes if they are to occur, considering this lan seems to be more of a "by the community for the community" type thing then say, Quakecon.

Come on, you can't be serious. What makes you think people decide to watch a tournament or not based on the mappool? Players make a tournament. If you are going to have all the best players in attendence viewers will be happy and if not they won't.

I don't know what the motivation for this whole thing is anyway. I haven't seen many complaints about the mappool in the recent tournaments. In fact while there are always complaints, the amount is probably at the lowest right now. And those who do complain mostly demand new maps of which there exist none currently.

Which brings us to a major flaw of this poll which is that there is no option to vote that you like the mappool the way it is. What makes you think that dropping two of the current maps and adding 4 different maps is what viewers want? If anything it's a desire of the admins to change something forced onto everybody.

Not to mention a 7-map pool is a ridiculous idea. I've written a whole column on why I think it's not good and I really hope whoever is in charge of making the rules for the duel tournament replies to me and lists his reasoning behind putting 7 maps.

I'm almost certain that if the same map pool is kept from zotac, dhs and qcon - there would be complaints for that.

What do you mean there would be complaints for that? It WAS kept the same, where are the complaints?

have my complain right here

i'm saying there would be complaints if adroits did exactly the same as the tournaments previous. Except the complaints wouldn't be coming from you.

I'm not saying there would be no complains at all but if you check news of some tournaments 1 or 2 years ago there was loads of map pool whine on every single one of them. Currently it seems like most players are more or less fine with it.

Also you're taking it out of context a little bit. I was replying to the guy who was saying, that the poll is on esreality so that potential viewers can decide upon what mappool they want. Thereby implying that viewers want two of the current maps to be removed from the map pool.

In the end what I'm getting at I guess is that every map pool you could come up with will have people complaining about it. But I think the current one is the one which leaves the fewest people unhappy.

i dunno, maybe the current map pool is fine - if I was playing (and i do duel fairly frequently at the moment), i wouldn't be satisfied with the most recent map pools. so I guess I am part of the statistic following the opposite viewpoint. Although I try not to let that impact decisions.

I understand that players should have an important say in things as well, so the players are going to get their share of influence in what happens to the rest of the map pool. I think just because the first step of identifying the map pool is daunting for some players, doesn't mean the rest of the process will be. :)

i'm not fine with this pool.

Neather am I but I think if you changed it more people would be "not fine" if you know what I mean :p
I think the best change you could make right now if you really want to make one, is replace toxicity with some new map. Perhaps solid or something.

We actually started with that mappool and everyone followed us. Got loads of complains as always in the beginning though :(

half people didn't read that they have to remove map by voting

in: hektik, campgrounds, house of decay, anythingexceptt4

trinity?

in:
FiXED dm6
T4
hektik with an extra room

out:
tox (or keep tox and remove hektik)

Not sure if Bo7 is not too much anyways - too many maps to be actively good at imo.

tox sucks, hektik owns: why would you want an extra room for hektik ? ....

dem0n u have the same taste :) dm6, houseofdecay and hektik, for me by far the best duel maps in QL.

have a huge + then, bro !

because hektik plays way more dull than tox.

I don't think so.

noobs, both tox and hektik own, death to ztn and dm13!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rather play 1v1 ca

I miss t9.

u had me on dm6

7 maps is too much imo, any particular reason for not just sticking to the established map pool?

why do people hate toxicity? its like the best map currently lol.

if u need to remove something, it should be ztn imo.

I was thinking the exact same thing.
Although I'd rather remove lost world instead of ztn.

Its like the worst map currently lol

uve said this a lot on esr. yet to see a good reason why u dislike it so much.

also u want dm6 back. all ur points are now invalid (c) gillz.

Well you havent seen every one of my post I assume.

Toxicity is even worse than aerowalk in terms of imbalance between the guy in control and the guy not.

For instance yesterday I played vs gekko; one time he won pretty much one-sided, the next time I beat him 16-1.

There isnt really a way back into the game without hitting some insane shots in particular moments or without huge mistakes by the opponent. There's little room to make damage on the items if you want to slowly come back into the game. The RA and MH are easy to access damage free when you're in control.

Hektik does not play the same at all, you can easily work your way back into control thanks to the map's structure and item layout. You can relatively more easily hear the item pickup times and the RA/MH position are unsafe enough that you can hope to make relatively easy damage with little punishment if you play your game right.

i would say quite the opposite. hektik for me is much easier to control cos theres less items to cycle and its much easier to control spawns.

i think ur just finding it hard to keep up with the pace of the game. tox isnt a map where you "slowly" build ur come back. its a map for fast decision making, about choosing where to do ur damage and take a death so that u get the advantage off the spawn.

this is just my personal experience. im not a pro but im quite good at tox and hektik both i think. as for how it plays at pro level, im fine with what i see in the tournaments. it doesnt feel that unbalanced.

You're assuming I have a problem with keeping up to the pace of the game on toxicity. I only said I hate the map, not that I suck on it. For instance, I've played a few games not so long ago on it vs spartie and i totally outplayed him, despite beeing one of his better maps.

burnedd even thinks that toxicity is by a large margin my best map before furious heights...

The problem is I don't enjoy this map. It is indeed easy to look crazy good on it once in a while because control quickly goes your way for one reason or another. This map is easy to figure out and there's no way out of this, because if you play the map any other way it just doesnt work. You can't really compare styles on it because there's only one that will work. On hektik you can choose to go all-in BERSERK mode or choose to back up a little and work on a little stack and a good moment. You just can NOT do that on toxicity, as you've said: the berserk mode is the only way out.

I think you haven't yet figured out all the possibilities hektik offers in those terms. I felt that hektik did not reach its peak potential of play yet on it, even after it has been there for quite a while.

Toxicity on the other hand got figured out pretty quickly by everyone who plays duel on a regular basis...

Why not make a poll where you can line the maps from 1st to 5th as in best to last. The first time I voted the otherway around this poll required :/

And those 5 maps are currently the best we have for each particular style. All the alternatives have been tested and have sucked for their own reasons.

because we felt it would be better for the community to decide which two are the least popular

we've done this, all the maps have been tried and we finally fell on this maplist. There's no new maps so all you can do is recycle the old crap that never made it in the first place.

rofl at "all the maps have been tried and we fell on this maplist"...

How do you know the testing's over ? Hektik got out because toxicity came into the pool for the obvious reason that "its a new cool fast map lets try it out".

Finally there's a poll here that shows how unpopular the map is amongst that 5 map in the current official pool and I've been hating every second of this map in there while good maps like hektik wouldn't be given a second chance.

That and many people have been wanting to see campgrounds and house of decay make a comeback into the pool, I think this is just about right. How many times have I seen people on a duel server requesting that I'd do a dm6 duel ?

Ztn is overplayed also and I feel relieved it's gonna be dropped for this one lan, because well it won't ever be dropped in any other of the prestigious competitions such as ugc dh or qcon so why not for adroits...

The best would be in the future to let ztn in, remove toxicity and add hektik, campgrounds and house of decay

Poll ends 2012-07-28

wow i'm reconsidering going now :/ don't see why you cant just leave the map pool as it is? it's only been recently added to zotac and we finally have a decent 5 maps and you want to change it?

cba to practice some obscure maps just for one lan . keep the most popular maps so you have the highest skill level.

oh and 7 maps is too much.

be more lazy

yeah because sitting on your high chair and expecting everyone else to reach a high level for your entertainment must be so difficult.

no, you're right - i just have to work for all the coverage instead. You get to play a game and I get to talk about it.

[-]

I have the funds, the time and will to participate in a social event but alas, I might not like a map so I'll just skip this.

ye, get t4 in ztn out.

unless 4 somehow tested good duel maps are coming out soon, i don't see the reasoning behind this. also why 7 maps?

ppl still gona play zotac map pool

plz get rid of bloodshit

Playing old maps over and over again will never help evolve the competitive scene. There IS a skill ceiling in Quake Live, and most of these maps are so old we're never gonna see new things. There are maps out there that was never given the chance of being in a competitive map pool.

Introducing new maps to people will encourage new ways to play the game.

Agreed. But unfortunately ppl will vote tox to drop out, which is sad. House of decay was really good ''new'' map which has been dropped out due to aeroshit...

Then you might see a comeback of house of decay, not at all impossible :>

T9 was good?
How?

said it lots of times but anyway. Can you name another competitive game that has changed its map pool more than QL? Or one that has used more than 13 (yes 13) maps in lans?

Brood War? :D

said that up there ^ rehe ud be proud, also fucking flash the gay cunt :<

https://twitter.com/Ethan_Ahn/status/227334429226438656

It has started.

brood war had several new maps every season, its the very reason why the game felt so fresh all the time. KESPA? even had their own professional map making team if i recall correctly

not in 3-4 years (QL), and there changing maps isn't as crucial as it is in an fps game.

eh? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Maps

for example all the maps in the current pool for tournaments are all completely new to me and i was an avid fan for years and years

not in 3-4 years

and again, on rts games changing maps it's simply not like in fps games, in which gameplay changes completely (or at least an awful lot).

srsly you have no fucking clue

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=84214

2008 alone had more maps played in competitive bw than quake3/ql has had in total

and much like ql, changing the map completely changed the way the game was played

haven't followed the scene in years lol, but anyway

do you really think that in a rts game changing maps is a crucial as it is in a fps?

its not easy to compare which game it has a bigger impact in (there are statistics for bw about how maps make a difference on which race is best) i'll just say that changing maps in either ql or bw has a significant difference in the way the game plays out

yes it does? rofl are u kidding. map choice is as critical in sc2 as it is in ql. just like in ql u have certain maps which favor fast (by fast in sc2 i mean 1 or 2 base strategies) and there are maps which allow for relatively safe long term expansion based strategies.

factor in all the permutations of units and stuff and map choice becomes really really important.

Seriously, we need to stop comparing shit. This isn't a real sport, nor is it Counter-Strike. It's Quake - and new maps are good for at least two reasons:

A) Giving newer players a real chance to redeem themselves and to encourage practice among the top players today. I for one would prefer seeing someone at LAN who have actually practiced the game before going, rather than someone who has played it for 10 years but doesn't need practice because they are simply much more experienced than everyone else.

B) To provide more exciting and unexpected games, and a way to play we haven't actually seen before.

Now, if people are too damn lazy to sit down and play new maps, or if they just for some reason only want to see old maps, well that's too fucking bad. Because Quake Live is in a steady decline and people are getting sick of watching the same thing over and over again every year.


I'm not saying that these are bad maps, but I feel like they could use some well deserved rest at least. It's getting old.

Quake Live isn't in a steady decline. It's just that ESL dropped it, but besides that quake gets more viewers than ever (they just don't spam chat), games are a lot easier to find, more and better online tournaments than before and even lans don't rely on having a major organization behind them, etc. etc.

What maps do you want to be added and that haven't been played at lans before? You won't find a single worthy one.
Do you really think changing maps will attract more viewers and attendants?

You're exaggerating the impact of the mappool on Quake Lives success.

The maps aren't what keeps new players from catching up to the established pros. Skills translate from one map to others very fast. There have been a lot of new maps introduced in ql and rapha, cypher & co were the best on them again in matter of 20 games.

New maps also aren't necessarily more exiting. I actually don't think maps really matter at all for exitement. Why would they? Games are exiting if they are close and maps can't help you with that (except by not being really unbalanced). In fact old maps generally should be more exiting because you're guaranteed both players know them well, while with new maps (especially if you're considering adding 4 maps that aren't played currently) there are typically lots of easy victories because someone didn't prac the map.

The only thing I can agree on to some extent is the novelty effect that can be refreshing and motivating to players who play/watch the current map pool day in day out. Which is why I actually wouldn't oppose replacing one of the current maps with a completely new one (you've mentioned concrete place and sorrow further above, I haven't played them a lot but they might be an option). But there are a lot of reasons against overdoing it and adding/removing too many maps (more than 1 is too many), that I can list if you want.

pretty much this. i think changing map pools regularly is a decent idea simply cos practicing the same map gets boring after a while. but at the same time the basic idea of this poll is flawed imo.

u should have a clear purpose in choosing the map pool. an idea of what sort of play you want to see in your tournament. do u want fast but slightly random gameplay from the faster maps (which would be quite entertaining to the vast majority of viewers i think but probably very offputting to the more serious ql player) or do u want slower more "strategic" gameplay on the unfortunately geriatric maps?

at any rate it shouldnt be left to a popularity contest on esr. those are never a good idea.

"a popularity contest on esr. those are never a good idea."

Made me lol :D

i like this way of creating the pool. as a spec : gimme hektik! fuck tox

thats a poll, not a pool

(fixed title)

:-D

i said i like the way the (map)pool is created

My 2 Pence:

There will clearly be more viewers than players voting in this pool so the result will be biased in that way. I can understand some players not liking that they have to learn new maps when they've speant so much time getting to learn the standard pool. But unless they're going to be replaced by really old school maps then most other players should be in the same position with the need to learn the maps so that should throw up some interesting results as to who can get good on the maps the most quickly...

I'm not really a dueller so I come at this from the spectators point of view:

Fistly, we can be sure that other lan/online events will have more standard map pools, so this isn't changing things for ever.

Secondly, I really like ztn, tox and lostworld, but I don't see anything surprising anymore and it gets boring seeing players go through the same tactics and routines...

When House of decay was in the mappool players came with lots of different approaches, but then it settled down to the same approach each time more or less. But it was really great fun as players developed and learned how to play it to that point. There are plenty of other good maps that I think could go through the same process that would be great fun. Give ztn and one other map a rest for a while... It would freshen things up for a bit. We'll see varied and imaginative gameplay on maps that don't get alot of airtime - that'd be great fun :D

And to be fair - unless 1 or 2 players think they are guaranteed a money finish if the standard maps are used, then I can't understand why the players wouldn't want this aswell.

roflmao@players who attend adroits voting for the maps they are weak on... gg wp

for the first time in quakelive history there is a perfect mappool, and now people start to provoke shit.

this pool has maps pretty much every premium player plays, a map pool consisting of classic maps, slower tactical maps, and faster action-packed maps.

i respect you Xou for the stuff u do, but with this poll you're not giving people the choice to keep the current map pool. which is what most players want

Maybe they will take 2 maps out with this poll and will have a new poll where they list all the maps and people can revote those that get removed or vote new ones in instead. Maybe they will let us vote 2 in and will add 2 to the pool by themselves.

That poll was made after a request from Wintastic.

If you feel like something is odd/wrong, this is a place where you can discuss it and express your opinion.

perfect mappool - stopped reading there.

lold also

as long as theres still hub im happy...
maps i dont want: dm6...its shit...id soft should just remove the file in the next release
4 maps i want: battleforged, hektik, that map where u take teleporters to both RG and LG (LG is below the RG) with RG on some exposed platform, then some other map i cant think of or just t4 (no house of decay)
3 maps to go with it: hub, t7, dm13

i wonder what public ca would play if they removed dm6 :) they would prolly quit quake

ztn out, yes yes yes!

well, if they remove ztn and tox i dont even have to consider taking part in the duel anymore :D

PRO-Q3DM6

Not gonna watch this lan

Gonna watch pavel vs cypher ztn; pavel vs dahang ztn @ DH

when dm6 and ztn was in pool, dm6 was played most. When its gona ztn is most so if ztn disapears from map pool players gonna quit quake or they gonna play all times t7 and then t7 is out of the pool

I'm for changing map pools as often as possible. Unfortunately ID software have created a model for QL that does not support this to a big extent. Since they don't add enough new maps or don't have a system where the community can tribute. However, there are some maps that can be switched here and there and I'm voting yes for it.

I'm still active in Q2 duel leagues and last season we had 11 maps in rotation, the season before that we had 3-4 different maps in rotation. I think it's healthy for the old and the new players to switch up maps so you actually get some variation.

Perhaps one of the reasons I'm still active in Q2 duel after 14 years, dunno but for sure it helps.

Honestly, as long as they only change 1 map i think it could work out, still I wouldn't remove ztn since it's by far the most popular map (personally, it's my least favorite but that's irrelevant).

I voted for removing toxicity. I honestly think that out of the current 5 maps in the map pool it just doesn't offer as much personality.

Aero,ZTN,T7 and dm13 are far more unique and distinctive in their play-style, plus aerowalk already fills the role of the faster-spawn rape- heavy +forward map and does a much better job at it than toxicity; all while also offering more strategically diverse game-play for the player out of control. Though I do want to add that I personally enjoyed the map in Q3 more with the VQ3 spawn system which had more of an emphasis on spawn fragging rather then spawn forcing.


Anyways, which map do you guys think should be added then? T9 and Hektik which have been mentioned are both good candidates in my opinion, but have both already been in the map pool before. I think that if it is possible, then a new map should be introduced to the map pool, not one that has been played before. Main reason being that it evens out the playing field and also rewards practice and preparation, a key element in a competitive gaming community where the top 8 players have mostly been the same people for the past 5 years, regardless of their activity.

That basically leaves us with Concrete Palace, Sorrow, Phrantic,Devilish,Solid and if we are really pushing it then maybe Gothic Rage, Focal Point, or even Seams and Bolts. From my limited experience testing some of these maps I have to say i was disappointed, Phrantic just wasn't any fun, even compared to playing cpm24 with vq3 game-play and solid was also a big disappointment considering I actually enjoyed it in Q3 (cpm29, was even used is some CB cup once upon a time IIRC) the only maps that might would work are Concrete or Sorrow.

Perhaps there might be a TDM map that could play out nice in duel? I remember playing 2v2 and even a few duels on ospdm6 (Intervention) back in the q3 days. DM20 also looks interesting. Are there any "new" maps that you guys think might be good enough?


Fuck too much amphetamines, long rant over.

Solid is a kinda nice map too btw :-)

Unfortunately I find that Solid is just too big and that the wide spaces make it feel a bit FFA'ish, also the lack of rail and PG in the map don't help. Did you know that this map was actually used before in some ClanBase vq3 cup back in the day (cpm29, in quake3) i think it's also played in cpm 2v2.
Still I do think that solid and the maps that I mentioned in my previous post do deserve some more thorough and proper testing. Zoot talked about possibly doing some qualifier cup to test some of the new maps. Perhaps you guys could offer to give away some free invites as prizes so more players would have an incentive to play in these cups?


If any changes in the map pool are to be made it's certainly a good idea to test them beforehand.

Yes, I did know about it being played in 2v2, not duel though.

We have already planned on doing points cups with these experimental maps, where free entrance to the duel tournament can be claimed as well.

Have also been considering a 5 map pool, instead of seven. Still replacing the two maps. I'm very interested in what the community thinks

Yep, despite this whole map pool drama this lan just really feels like a "by the community for the community" type thing which is why i feel the community has been so supportive. Keep up the good job.

I think a good way would be either do a 5 mappool with replacing 2 maps or a 7 mappool with replacing only 1 map.

so, 2 new duel maps on today's patch (in reality just 1)
http://esreality.com/post/2294861/qlpp13-maps-next-update/

wanna give them a shot? would adding them make people not participate in this event or others?

Was just about to paste link, talk about timing!

Looks like the Adroits guys maybe knew something we didn't.

there's a beta testing group

the ctf map looks quite nice, but seems like there won't be such tournament on Adroits with -2 signups.

;)

I have had those in mind, especially Silence looks interesting to me. As I said we will do points cups with different maps each round and take feedback from participants to help decide the new maps.

Silence looks really nice actually not too sure on windsong can't wait to try these out!

I at least hope they will confirm that ztn's dropped from the tournament before I have to pay the entry fee, so I can NOT pay it.

1-mapper :>

If you remove toxicity i wont come!!

the LAN is at, what is effectively, a bar,

Your threats make me chuckle!!! ^^

fantastic logic.

?

So there are 2 more duel maps that have been released. A rotation on free to play maps every month. Qualifier cups will come at the beginning of August for maps to be tested competitively whilst offering players a reward of free entrance to the Adroits LAN event. Bloodrun just became a premium map (as well as others).

It seems now that people will be able to practice several duel maps even if they don't have a premium/pro account. I'm even more excited about what this will offer for the Adroits LAN event and all the cups leading to it.

"It seems now that people will be able to practice several duel maps even if they don't have a premium/pro account. I'm even more excited about what this will offer for the Adroits LAN event and all the cups leading to it."

Not sure where you got that from :D? Anyway, if you are eager to put in a new map you should definitly go for Silence.

People did suggest that it was difficult to practice all the premium maps, so now we dont have that problem at least

silence looks a lot better than concrete palace or sorrow

the result of poll looks like a lot of russians haven't read the rules and voted for ztn...

- bloodrun ofc

+ t9 really loved playing and watching that map!

owzodamighty has spoken

Yea boy! Seriously though, t9 was so fun :O)

bloodrun reigns supreme, objectively best map.

but so far it's getting removed

Irrelevant

Silence sucks but i really like Solid. i hope itll be in the list

idd, Windsong Keep also seems good, much better than silence.

silence gets huge promotion though and therefore, for a sort term will be quite popular. After that will get disliked fast from most players, since the map is too cluttered and without some sort of personality or good flow. They are betting on the wrong horse imo.

I remember the first time I watched t7, t9, hektik and tox. In all of them I was “cool, a nice new map”. Didn't feel the same for silence.

I watched czm yesterday in Windsong Keep though and it felt like a nice duel map. I hope a tourney will follow for that map too.

yea would be cool if there was a tourney for each newish map (windsong, solid, that map that got remodelled that i liked but cant remember now, etc) to see how the games compare to this tourney (pretty dull)

will do points cups where players can win free entrance to the duel tournament, with different maps to determine which one is the last map to go in. Right now the map pool is: Lost World, Furious Heights, Aerowalk, Silence, X.

what is "points cups"? why is silence included? i assume youve watched the matches from the cup last weekend...it plays boring even when people dont know the map. when they know it more it will be a ztn style scoring map

edit: and i mean serious ztn...not ztn during the last zotac when everyone was trying to make games exciting. but like 5-2 or 3-1 scores

I'd keep the 'standard' map pool and replace one map with a new one.

My 2 cents.

tbh i feel like all 5 new maps should be in the pool, it has gotten so so so boring to play and watch :/ especially duel, i used to watch even the smallest duel cups but now i cba to watch anything anymore.

I see your point but I dont feel like a LAN (with prizemoney) is the right place to introduce a complete new mappool, would be pretty random and I can understand any dueler that wouldnt go.
1, max 2 (if announced very soon) and probably pick pick, but Im just a spectator anyway :>
\TDM/

will be a 5 map pool, so 2 new maps. Lost World, Furious Heights, Aerowalk, Silence, X.

The last map will be determined by players playing in our points cups for the free entrance ticket.

So you've based the map pool on a poll which has been misunderstood by many potential spectators. Have you sent your job application to id? I think you'd be up for the job.

tbh I think he's (gienek) right. I think many bloodrun votes are likely to be a mistake.

Maybe a few, unlikely that it would have changed the results anyway.

most popular map rated worst.. hmm :)

Bitches can't deal with the ztn

only sometimes people play abit campy on it. ztn rules

why no dm6?

I like aero , tox because they are easy to play, but these maps are unbalanced imo. bloodrun probably the best but too old. change the mappool every x time or something.
dm6? gimme a break.

ztn is still the best, but I gotta admit im abit of a sucker for DM6 too. There is something orgasmic about the texture color/tones, the fact you can play with it with r_mapoverbrights 5 like on Q3 and don't get these extremely retarded bright textures like it happens with newer maps, and being on top of the bridge and dennying RA to the player in duel with rocket launcher, or being the one that picks up the RA and successfully dodges all the rockets while attacking. Neat stuff.

+plazma traps when oppo jumps from YA
+finishing midair rails when oppo is pushed from RL
+ability to chase for frags with high speed rocket-jumps when u just got control back and u need to get those 5 frags in a minute
best map evar.

I have to change my view :) wait I just watched the final of lexer qcon2k again and some cooller demos on dm6. it's not a bad map but just got bored of it i guess

Okay great. I voted for Bloodrun to be REMOVED. Not the other way around... :(

ZTN FOVERER FOR ETERNITY INFINITE!