wishful thinking

I suspect, no QL updates until RAGE is out.

I suspect no updates once it's out either.

i suspect no updates once it's in either

i suspect you of being a weirdo

i suspect id will rob money from people for another year or so then quit

http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php...unt-please

they are losing money with ql

suits them right

it probably does, but its a bad thing for us aswell :(

I suspect no Rage until QL update O_o

I think they will surely release some sort of update with the aim of getting people to re-sub for another year.

this

... even though id seems like a company that is not going well and wants its employees (players in our case) to retire and a good update would counter that plan.

So, I guess they are in some kind of dilemma. If they don’t have an update, then less ppl will renew their subs, but if they have an update, then less ppl will abandon ql. Hard to choose, it’s like lose lose to them.

Yeah ,it is a tough one.If I was id i would look at it like this:1 half decent update to pull in some cash, then half ass every other update for the rest of the year.It's basically 1 update a year with abit of effort to keep the subs rolling

my guess is (don't know if this is correct or not) that its a 3rd party script much like tier viewer that just adds a piece of information to your QL page. seeing trances QL page in stream showed already his qlrank elo.

http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/111519

id implementing it in ql will never happen

From all accounts, the next update tomorrow could see the following:

-new map(s) by citty
-new ctf scoreboard
-more cvars...
-no anticheat
-possibility of sirax's creation at qlranks to be integrated. as a script like the tierviewer
-bugfixes and webwork

Since last night a few ppl started proding and poking around, I'll post an excerpt of what was said.

CONFIRMED:

Semt-x • wqhy do we have to wait for 23532948563 seconds before the next map starts?
@SyncError|home • We can reduce the min time, but 30 seconds is pretty standard these days for end-game scoreboards in any release title.
@SyncError|home • Well, I just cut the minimum time by an additional 5 seconds for team games.
@SyncError|home • So next code update, it will be slightly shorter.

Next code update will reduce time scoreboard is shown from 20 second to 15 second if everyone readies up after the game ends.

]OLD[Fraggie • we all want to see some kind of anticheat? i dont care because i'm bad:) but i hate to see matches and think? is he cheating also?
@SyncError|home • Yup, we all want to see some kind of anticheat.
@SyncError|home • Someone within id, but not on the QL team, is working on it. So we're at the mercy of whether they are able to complete that work regardless of it not being their assigned task, whether it successfully passes testing, etc.
@SyncError|home • We hope it pans out. :)
@SyncError|home • We actually do have some other measures in place that tell us when people are cheating and logs a lot of data on them.
@SyncError|home • So we're not entirely left to demo reviews atm like most believe.
zoot_ • so when is punkbuster being introduced SyncError|home?
@SyncError|home • There are no plans to ever reintroduce PB.
@SyncError|home • It caused many issues.
@SyncError|home • About 1/3 of our users couldn't play when we had PB running.

QL team currently doesn't have resource to employ AC developer. So they are relying on outside developer to do AC when he gets some free time from his other projects. AC is on it's way, it's just when that is unknown. PB will never be reintroduced, hipp hipp hooray!

@SyncError|home • You don't hear me on irc everyday
@SyncError|home • and you don't read me on the forums everyday
@SyncError|home • because I'm working nonstop on things.
@SyncError|home • I can gladly begin speaking more everywhere (despite some not wanting me to).
@SyncError|home • But work will get done slower.
chubz • Shouldn't that be done by a resident PR/community handler
@SyncError|home • chubz, yes it should be, but currently id doesn't have their own community manager
@SyncError|home • so we rely on using Bethesdas
@SyncError|home • and those resources are better committed on Rage atm.

@SyncError|home • Hiring people costs money, and we're not making enough money to justify new hires on the project.

This is just to set a few things straight: A Web portal based game doesn't come with its own community manager. id isn't hiring one either for this project. This is handled by a Bethesda PR/community manager, from whom we didn't hear anything, ever!
I guess since he is so busy handling Rages community and releasing information about a game that isn't quite finished yet.
Whether this puts sponges, ordus, a syncs jobs into some perspective as if they were smart to just don't give a rats ass about this game they wouldn't be handling anything community wise and wouldn't be on irc to start with :) Also Quakelive isn't making enough revenue to hire new developer or do anything outside what a few community free driven and developed things can do now for the game!
Also I'm starting to resent RAGE on a very high intensity A newage omfg graphics with nothing more then a passing value is screwing with a project that already has a community, tradition and has some of the best gamers around.
/end rant

----------------

NOT CONFIRMED/NOT GONNA HAPPEN:

Drayan • would be nice if players who disconnected weren't removed from the final scoreboard
Drayan • streamers miss out on stats when players mass quit
@SyncError|home • Yes, it would, but that won't be happening anytime soon, if ever.
Drayan • :(
@SyncError|home • All of the current scoreboard code is based on pulling information from connected clients.
@SyncError|home • Moving to a system where we store all of that information prior to a disconnect, and then get into the mess of dealing with clients that disconnect and reconnect during a match is a whole mess. Considering the make up of our current team, I don't see us rewriting that at this point.
@SyncError|home • I did some of that for the Premium TDM Scoreboard, where it stores team states, armor and power-up pickups..
@SyncError|home • that info is correct even when players disconnect.
@SyncError|home • But storing that info for 16 players is another matter.
Drayan • well, could it "freeze" the scoreboard on game end maybe?
@SyncError|home • Yes Drayan, maintaining data once we're at the end-game is much more doable.

Preserving data for disconnected players won't ever happen.
There is a slight chance to have your score and stats remain frozen from the end of 1 game to the start of the second one.

dru1d • any plans on adding more payment options?
dru1d • card only sucks tbh
@SyncError|home • druid, that is unknown atm. We have tried to pursue it.
@SyncError|home • Yes, we worked hard to pursue PayPal as an option, but currently it is not.
@SyncError|home • We're a private company and do not release our financial information, and PayPal will not give accounts to companies that do not share their financials.
@SyncError|home • Its not like _I_ have any decision in whether we're public or not. :)

Since id is a private company and PayPal requires trasparent and full financial disclosure, which id doesn't want to give we probably won't have PayPal any time soon.

zoot_ • sirax who made qlranks which has a ladder system
zoot_ • made a ladder system in 1 week
zoot_ • id software couldn't make it in 2 and a half years
zoot_ • why don't you hire new coders?
@SyncError|home • Hiring people costs money, and we're not making enough money to justify new hires on the project.
zoot_ • so you got someone doing it for free?
@SyncError|home • Correct
@SyncError|home • We have an employee doing it outside of work hours.
zoot_ • high quality...
@SyncError|home • Yes high quality.

Now this is taken out of conversation so it's not confirmed that "the employee" isn't in fact the same one doing the anti cheat!
Irc coms are confusing so this is not CLEAR about the ladders, it just went across the question for the ladder
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I KNEW IT.

1) no paypal option is ever coming
2) syncerror's old title "community manager" was never HIS title
3) id doesn't have a community manager AT ALL
4) id isn't a transparent company.
5) they had to cut out employees in this past year to stay even. This next year could see yet another cut, ending all development and leaving it 100% in the hands of the community.
6) anticheat may or may not come but if it doesn't, it won't ever come from id
7) they don't have anyone actively developing quake live
8) rage = gg for quake live

Only thing inconclusive about that last part is:

what is the employee doing outside of work hours, he didn't specify? working with sirax on qlranks? working on a ladder of his own to compete with qlranks? is that employee = sirax?

Good work chubz!!!

This is not called work. I just relayed what I saw and asked myself.

As for what we knew, and what we didn't know. Many things are still uncertain. Yet we don't have to speculate about who is doing what, and who is supposed to do what.

I'm saying this because now we know that within QLs leftover development team we don't have much, and that many things get handled by people not supposed to handle it. Thus making mistakes and taking time away from what they should be doing. On the other hand, we at least got an information as to who is supposed to do a lot of work here but isn't doing, as far a QL is considered. Primarily id's head board, and Bethesdas/Zenimaxs community/PR teams.
Maybe they should be called out more.

ad 2-3 - he was the Community Manager before Bethesda bought id.

ad 5 - other theoretical probabilities for next year include raythenoob being employed by id, raythenoob undergoing lobotomy and raythenoob miraculously becoming a normal person. Why mention it though?

ad 6 - he's said someone from id is working on it, so if it materializes, it will technically be done in-house. L2read.

ad 7 - what? He specifically says he's working his ass off. We know at least 2 more people working on QL currently. That's too little, but far from "no one".

2-3) how do you explain him labeling himself as a community manager at 3:30 in the video then?

6)i was referring to this convo as explained to zealot as well

zoot_ • sirax who made qlranks which has a ladder system
zoot_ • made a ladder system in 1 week
zoot_ • id software couldn't make it in 2 and a half years
zoot_ • why don't you hire new coders?
@SyncError|home • Hiring people costs money, and we're not making enough money to justify new hires on the project.
zoot_ • so you got someone doing it for free?
@SyncError|home • Correct
@SyncError|home • We have an employee doing it outside of work hours.
zoot_ • high quality...
@SyncError|home • Yes high quality.

sounds more like he's referring to ql ranks based on that convo wouldn't you say. Nowhere in there was mention of a ql anticheat.

7) ordus isn't a programmer...and i was referring to real development such as a ladder which sync, by his own admission said they don't have the money to hire someone to do....

zoot_ • sirax who made qlranks which has a ladder system
zoot_ • made a ladder system in 1 week
zoot_ • id software couldn't make it in 2 and a half years
zoot_ • why don't you hire new coders?
@SyncError|home • Hiring people costs money, and we're not making enough money to justify new hires on the project.

learn2read yourself

@SyncError|home • Yup, we all want to see some kind of anticheat.
@SyncError|home • Someone within id, but not on the QL team, is working on it.

Did you read this part? :)

that's a diff convo.. with ]OLD[Fraggie ...are you blind?

6) anticheat may or may not come but if it doesn't, it won't ever come from id

@SyncError|home • Yup, we all want to see some kind of anticheat.
@SyncError|home • Someone within id, but not on the QL team, is working on it.

sounds more like he's referring to ql ranks based on that convo wouldn't you say. Nowhere in there was mention of a ql anticheat.

So why the hell do you keep on refering to this conversation but ignore the one that actually was about anti-cheat?

wow ... i wasn't referring to that convo, i was referring to this one which i'm quoting to you now for the 3rd freaking time....

zoot_ • sirax who made qlranks which has a ladder system
zoot_ • made a ladder system in 1 week
zoot_ • id software couldn't make it in 2 and a half years
zoot_ • why don't you hire new coders?
@SyncError|home • Hiring people costs money, and we're not making enough money to justify new hires on the project.
zoot_ • so you got someone doing it for free?
@SyncError|home • Correct
@SyncError|home • We have an employee doing it outside of work hours.
zoot_ • high quality...
@SyncError|home • Yes high quality.

WHERE THERE DOES HE MENTION ANTI-CHEAT... he doesn't....zoot mentions qlranks which is what that discussion is about.... it sounds like sync's either admitting that sirax is an employee or that they are making their own ladder . most likely that sirax is the one doing it for them , for free

ray. please. read what I write. please.

your orignal point was:

6) anticheat may or may not come but if it doesn't, it won't ever come from id

numerous people have explained to you that this part is wrong, as shown by this quote:

@SyncError|home • Yup, we all want to see some kind of anticheat.
@SyncError|home • Someone within id, but not on the QL team, is working on it.

Now you keep on quoting a different conversation that is about sirax' ladder thing even though it has nothing to do with anti-cheat or your original point. This conversation isn't related whatsoever to your point 6), so why is it supposed to be of any relevance?

the 6) was a reply to anonymous.....

i quoted both convos in replies to show the difference in them, seing that one is about qlranks and the other about anticheat.

and really the confusion started in comment #36 by zealot who replied my original question (which wasn't labeled 6) check comment #17 of mine.

Only thing inconclusive about that last part is:

""""what is the employee doing outside of work hours, he didn't specify? working with sirax on qlranks? working on a ladder of his own to compete with qlranks? is that employee = sirax? """

and replied with:

6) anticheat made by id?
@SyncError|home • Someone within id, but not on the QL team, is working on it.

so you can see how you are confused as he confused the issue...

the 6) was a reply to anonymous.....

No, it wasn't. It was a reply to chubz:
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2151674#pid2151674

You should really post less, you can't even keep track of your own posts anymore.

i quoted both convos in replies to show the difference in them, seing that one is about qlranks and the other about anticheat.

So what? Your point "6)" is still wrong, can you finally admit that?

The other conversation is probably about ladders and we don't know whether this id employee working on ladders in his spare time is the same one that works on the anti-cheat. So why is it relevant to the fact that an id employee is working on anti-cheat?

ask chubz why it's relevant i didn't bring that part up.

Wow, you really are mental.

chubz posted it because it was relevant to the ladder thing. Notice how it's at the opposite end of his post?

Then you quoted it half a dozen times, as if it was relevant to the development of anti-cheat.

no, i quoted the part i quoted to ascertain the question what IT in the sentence "so you got someone doing it for free?", pertained to. We still don't know. So, please l2read yourself and stop derailing this thread.

you guys are both somehow confusing my initial question with anticheat and i don't know how you are confusing that issue, its' not at all in play here, certainly not by the original quote where the only thing mentioned was qlranks.

wtf is wrong with you? I wonder how long it will take until you're on everyone's ignore list on ESR.


It doesn't matter what the it in that conversation stands for, because it is an id employee who's working on that anyway:

We have an employee doing it outside of work hours.

So your original point...

6) anticheat may or may not come but if it doesn't, it won't ever come from id

.. is wrong either way.


And I don't know why you think that...

[in] the original quote where the only thing mentioned was qlranks.

... because -- and I'll only quote it one last time -- ...

6) anticheat may or may not come but if it doesn't, it won't ever come from id

]OLD[Fraggie • we all want to see some kind of anticheat? i dont care because i'm bad:) but i hate to see matches and think? is he cheating also?
@SyncError|home • Yup, we all want to see some kind of anticheat.
@SyncError|home • Someone within id, but not on the QL team, is working on it.

from chubz below in comment #90

From the original conversation it isn't clear whether sync was talking about one or the other

that is the question we're trying to figure out.

funniest part is you keep going back to 6) when the initial question had nothing to do with it (since i asked the question above....., what IT was that they were workign on in the last quoted section with zoot_

No, it isn't.
The question is why you wrote:

6) anticheat may or may not come but if it doesn't, it won't ever come from id

as a reply to what chubz posted:

]OLD[Fraggie • we all want to see some kind of anticheat? i dont care because i'm bad:) but i hate to see matches and think? is he cheating also?
@SyncError|home • Yup, we all want to see some kind of anticheat.
@SyncError|home • Someone within id, but not on the QL team, is working on it.

edit:
compare:


chubz:

he clearly stated that Anti cheat was done INHOUSE

you:

6) anticheat may or may not come but if it doesn't, it won't ever come from id

dude just stop

Only thing inconclusive about that last part is:

what is the employee doing outside of work hours, he didn't specify? working with sirax on qlranks? working on a ladder of his own to compete with qlranks? is that employee = sirax?

that was what this is about.. this is the question we're trying to figure out. you're going on about anticheat this, anticheat that, god get a grip

that's your quote:

6) anticheat may or may not come but if it doesn't, it won't ever come from id

Mind explaining this?

dude you're so confused it's funny

oh but in regards to the anticheat, until i see a name of an id employee saying they're working on an anticheat then i might entertain your theory. But as of now, i believe it's more likely that its' a 3rd party like qlranks, like the premium scoreboard was, and like anything else we're gonna see (prob the ctf scoreboard too) as it's almost all too obvious that id doesn't have the resources or money to make anything of their own anymore. They're just barely hanging on, hence why they're cutting costs.

that's your quote:

6) anticheat may or may not come but if it doesn't, it won't ever come from id

Mind explaining this?


I'm not responding to your stupid speculative question you are "trying to figure out", will you finally get that?

troll much?

until i see a name of an id employee saying they're working on an anticheat then i might entertain your theory

It's not my theory, it's WHAT SYNCERROR WROTE ON IRC.

If you don't believe a word he says, then why do you want to discuss what he said anyway?

maybe because he's lied in the past about communicating to the community and has lied about policies he stated exist that he doesn't adhere to (2 accounts / person), and maybe its' because he likes to take credit for work others do (premium scoreboards) and maybe it's because they broke their own promises of one update a month last year and maybe its' because he lied about his own position , a position we've come to find out doesn't exist...

think outside the box man, i'm sure you'll figure it out

So actually, you are just repeating over and over again what you THINK is true and everyone who voices a different opinion -- e.g. based on what SyncError wrote on IRC -- is wrong? Alright, putting you on ignore, you're not worth anyone's time.

you're putting me on ignore because you realized you argued a totally different point when my intial question had nothing to do with anticheat lol.....

hahahahha

no, he's putting you on ignore because you are just repeating over and over again what you THINK is true and everyone who voices a different opinion is wrong.
we are not here to fix what's going in your head, we want to talk about what's going on in ql's development. it's getting very annoying having you pollute every single thread about quakelive with your rants.

yes yes, anticheat uhu..... still we dont' know what IT is that they are workign on now do we.... but yes anticheat, etc etc... keep changing the subject to what YOU want to talk about... make your own comment then, instead of infesting mine with your rhetoric troll.

Έray does it really matter what they are working on?
Is that really important here?
Also, whether or not they are working ON IT is you proposed question which causes sooo much speculation it's not even funny.
Now pls concentrate on matter at hand and not on speculation.

I pasted it as a non confirmed info.
From the original conversation it isn't clear whether sync was talking about one or the other, while he clearly stated that Anti cheat was done INHOUSE but not by QL team developer but by an outside one (ids developer). Later the convo got confusing with loads of static and people asking nothing smart while sync deliver his messages in forms of statements and not answers to anyone specific.

If you guys want, you can clarify this with the man himself or I'll ask, it's no problem. Because it doesn't matter.

To me all that matters is getting in contact with the man supposed to be getting in contact with us.

Telling him something along the lines of:
Well for past few weeks there is somewhat heated discussion on Quakelive scene about: if quakelive is supported by id bethesda, zenimax? If not why not? If yes, where are: community managers, developers etc?
The scene itself gained a boots by producing QLRANKS(thank you sirax) free of charge homemade project which lifted duel activity by margin not seen by your own developers, Why is that, Why aren't you aware of that?
Is community important to id or bethesda or Zenimax? If not, thanks to you and your future titles very much, i won't be re subscribing. If yes, why do we meet just now?
How or why is it that Rage takes up all your community management time when it's not been released yet, while a community that exists doesn't know you exist? how did you help this game or it's future, and if you haven't HOW CAN YOU HELP this community and this game?

some good questions there. i really hope you get some answers out of it. I don't have much hope though seeing as how quiet zenimax has been to this point.

1) maybe, but that's an explanation that makes sense, somewhat.

4) as a company, id is not public, which is why they do not release their full financial statements (are not "transparent"). that's not exactly news though, either. where are you going with this?

6) anticheat made by id?
@SyncError|home • Someone within id, but not on the QL team, is working on it.

where did you get this from?
7) they don't have anyone actively developing quake live
8) rage = gg for quake live

4) that we'll never get any heads up on development, so any promises made to date or in the past were full of hot air.

6) no i was referring to this last convo between them:

zoot_ • sirax who made qlranks which has a ladder system
zoot_ • made a ladder system in 1 week
zoot_ • id software couldn't make it in 2 and a half years
zoot_ • why don't you hire new coders?
@SyncError|home • Hiring people costs money, and we're not making enough money to justify new hires on the project.
zoot_ • so you got someone doing it for free? (DOING WHAT?)
@SyncError|home • Correct
@SyncError|home • We have an employee doing it outside of work hours.
zoot_ • high quality...
@SyncError|home • Yes high quality.

4) no, man wtf. id isn't "transparent" financially and from what i've understood that's not exactly up for the quakelive team to decide :p

6) @SyncError|home • We have an employee doing it outside of work hours.

4)yet they made promises in the past for a devblogpost last march that never came to fruition.... get it?

6)doing "it".... it = what? you daft?

4) you don't seem to understand what this is about, like at all. whatever id is doing financially has nothing to do with them being open/transparent about ql's development (or lack thereof). two entirely different things.

6) you said this
6) anticheat may or may not come but if it doesn't, it won't ever come from id
and were wrong all along, give it up. the anticheat will be made by an id employee who is doing this in his free time (which is awesome).

4)where in my original comment did i mention them not being transparent about their finances or development? They're clearly not transparent about either .... we knew they weren't transparent about their finances but up until now we were told they weren't transparent because of bethesda, which as it turns out wasn't the only reason.

6)funny how the person working on the project hasn't been named yet isn't it... maybe because they're not really id employees. Again, think outside the box for a second.

wait, what? what the fuck is wrong with you, ray.
is it really that hard to admit, just once, that you made a mistake?

maybe sync isn't lying to us because there is no reason to, i could've aswell imagine john fucking lennon working on id's anticheat system, but chances are he is not, so why mention it!?

maybe global warming doesn't exist either? see how narrow minded your viewpoint is. You believe everything you hear without questioning it first. Well i've already been lied to many times so i'm not going head first into this. Feel free to embrace them. But don't come crying when you find out otherwise. And as far as him not lying

ARE YOU BLIND?

He clearly states there's no community manager position for this game. When he labeled himself as such even dating back just a month ago.

what the fuck?? global warming, wha...

7) sync admitting they don't have enough money to hire new coders maybe...'
8) uh, i can't believe you're asking me this. Isn't it obvious based on the above explanations by the aforementioned that development on ql isn't taking place because the resources are currently being used to finish rage... so rage in other words is holding quake live up and the longer rage takes to make, the longer it will take for ql to get developed, time which ql can't afford to lose right now...

7) he was talking about new coders, there is an existing staff you tard.
this 7) they don't have anyone actively developing quake live is simply not true, the whole log says otherwise.

8) wtf, it's all in your head. you assume so much about so many things, yet you know little and have huge problems with reading comprehension even on a basic level.

7) he was talking about new coders, there is an existing staff you tard.
this 7) they don't have anyone actively developing quake live is simply not true, the whole log says otherwise.

brampton and ash_ were let go. Who's left? sponge?

ordus isn't a programmer. sync is a mapper/webguy

the snippets posted by chubz are about the current and coming development of quakelive, it's inane and illogical to assume there is no development in a post which is about its development, am i getting through to you?

7) they don't have anyone actively developing quake live
=bullshit. the irc logs say otherwise, anticheat coming, ladders probably too, read.

no, he already stated in #90 that he wasn't clear himself what he was pertaining to as far as "it" being developed. Stop speaking for him. Also, only thing we know is that an anticheat may come, but we don't know when. We don't know ladders are coming from them as that info was inconclusive. we already know the anticheat isn't coming from someone on the ql team and we already know the maps citty are making are not ... from id... they're from citty unless you're claiming citty works for id now.

6) anticheat may or may not come but if it doesn't, it won't ever come from id
vs.
we already know the anticheat isn't coming from someone on the ql team

you are backpedalling now, nice :) first step in the right direction.

righttttt keep telling yourself that. Then i'll laugh in your face when you find out a 3rd party totally creates it. Again, stop taking your happy pills and open your eyes. Syncerror greatly contradicts himself in that irc log and is caught essentially having lied about his position all along.

You see some of that stuff is more or less what I said..
Also you are pretty good at making things appear overdramatic and turning things around to how you would like them to be..

i am not chubz, i simply simplified what he posted above.. what are you talking about? i can't summarize what he gathered? you're not the boss of me

yet you simplified and over dramatized, traumatized this whole thread!

I posted at length to how what's being said, and how I interpreted this. What should be the points of interest here ... you jumped on things we already know are wrong, and things we already know suck, and on people that maybe once had connections to it, but as of late don't and are useless for furthering this discussion.

continue your fine work please, don't let my little argument with zealot bother you. these aren't the droids you're looking for... move along... move along

+back'ed, lol.

Honestly what do you expect ?

You expedt a company to put in man hours on a project that is losing money just for your own personal enjoyment.

You should be quite happy they still have people doing work on it AT ALL (even during their spare time) instead of just pulling the plug.

Your rants just don't make any sense from a company pov (who want to make money not spend it)

n1 chubz :o)

@SyncError|home • About 1/3 of our users couldn't play when we had PB running.

the irony =))))))))))))))))

Maybe, but the heartbeat failures were a fact. Fucking bane of my early days QL existence.

Ye, the cheaters :D

btw syncerror said in irc they setting up hungarian server.... that was in march

citty you hear that? MORE EMPTY PROMISES. Your god lied again!!!

ray, that's borderline abuse, in a pretty informative topic regarding who is where and what's to be done after we have information of interest disclosed.

I realise you can't just drop things that bother you on a personal note, but comments like this are constructive in any way.
You've said it, now practise your preaching, sync has nothing to do with most stuff plaguing this game, at least not any more. People that should be working, don't even exist to start with.

We have a problem here of community efforts, and time being wasted on people that don't really need their time wasted on the community as that's not their job.

Keep those in PM's and/pr outside of mains rly!

wait a minute.... sync certainly still has everything to do with internal issues, those that ordus is taking care of. And they are still banning people for teamkilling (detlew), cheating (pick 1) and racist language (mrgreen_)

he may not have anything to do with community management anymore, but he's still responsible for what happens inside the game itself.

ray, sync may as well be the worst kind of a human being there is. But if you want to know the truth. We shouldn't really ever get to know that he even exists other than a signature on map that should or shouldn't succeed in tournament map pool or public play.

There is supposed to be a guy that would tell you personally or publicly whether your propositions and arguments are being taken validly or not by developers and admin and making sure that if you present the case in a certain, certain things happen and you see results. Sync won't ever do that, or is he going to see this as anything else then a waste of time or resources.

When push comes to shove, he does a job that he is not supposed to do, the way he wants it done. It's well within reason that if there are no checkups , or no formal complaint on higher level, he is not going to ban anyone that he shared time with or has helped him do his job easier, other than that person him or herself doing somthing to begrudge him.

I realize it's pretty hard to control yourself, but do it!

i think i see where you're going with this.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!

He can say anything he wants at this point, he has nothing to do with any of it probably. On the other hand, they could have made plans only to go bust by the provider. Which there isn't any community manager to tell you about, right :)

this post confirms that this year we will have less updates than the preceding ones, and most probably with worse quality as well since quality costs money (so do wcp maps for that matter) if they don't rely on community-made content, like they did from quake1 to quake3.

Expect at most 12 maps (4 of which will be ra3 arenas), no new mods, some commands that have no practical use (and which won't fix mouse problems), no anticheat and no new other content.
Ladders implementation doesn't matter nowadays, since the very community took care of that (after being IP banned by id for that).


And that's not even what concerns me as a potential customer. The problem is they will be busy working, because they are already way behind schedule (no quakecon update this year), so id doesn't have time to think of new ideas or to implement community suggestions, at least for a year.

On the other hand, most probably this game will be shut down next year, or id will put an end to the subscription model and use a single-pay only system for the same price, so there's no reason to buy/renew a subscription now; unless this tuesday's update is superb.

I hate to say it, but syncerror really does have a quality about him. It's quite displeasing. I'm not saying he sucks more than a vacuum cleaner, or more than your mom's mouth, but there's something about him that just isn't right.

So basicly anti-cheat is gonna take a looooong time

gg wp

at least you know that it's gonna take a loooooong time. But you aslo know that it's coming.

pervert

The Quake community is full of people willing to collaborate on this project, and many of the hardcore quakers have proficient IT skills in one form or another. ID needs to set up a "collaboration-team", and hire about 10-30 volunteers for over-the-internet collaboration with the QL project.

For example, if Sirax we're part of that team, ID software gives him everything he needs to know to create a fully integrated Statistics & Ladder module, and then 4 or 5 other members of the team beta-test and proof-read the code, and then ID software can basically include it in the next update.

Am I talking bullshit or is this a perfectly viable option?

it's a viable option to keep the 1000 or so hardcore players playing quake live, it isn't however, a sustainable option to keep a playerbase large enough for large scaled tournaments with prizes high enough to keep pros motivated to keep competing.

sadly, the above, if true (i have no reason its' not copy pasted), is in many respects the things many of us have suspected all along. If this was only voiced to us earlier than more could have been done to preserve this game. Now we're being left to our own devices with the sad reality that ql will never become the entertainment success it was deemed not long ago.

There are more than 1000 hardcore players in QL, for example at christmas 2010 60,000 people played on the holiday maps they put on and I doubt 100% of players bothered with the holiday maps.

Yeah there are 14600 odd Duellers as qlranks.com points out. And that is only a scratch of players, considereing most CA and CTF'ers have not played Duel since qlranks started.

don't tell that to vedic. He'll tell you the game has gone down 70% in population this past year lol.

hardcore.... not everyone playing ql..... there's a diff....

In the last month alone, there have been 6,000 more duellers playing according to QLRanks. Duellers are pretty hardcore arn't they?

You are not talking bullshit but there are many issues in this topic.
For instance, is the site coded in a modular fashion?
Is any part of company's policy adjusted for collaboration development and opening up code to volunteers?
Or are they prepared to negotiate certain terms with community developers for integrating their stuff or further sacrificing their team efforts in converting code made into code integrated.
I know I wouldn't like to convert aspx and VS generated code into aynthing like php or py for web. Rather rewrote it based on pseudocode :) (not that tehre's anything wrong about developing anything that works in any chosen language. We all have preferences)

What you are proposing is open sourcing quakelive to a series of developers who can't be tested or have their credentials confirmed unless it's done officially, in which case they should invest in creating and developing a system to develop the game in.
Nothing comes free. And if you have to adjust systems in a private firm which protects its code, by making exceptions to rules already in place then you waste time and money.

I agree that a community development effort could do a lot here, as it has. But the main problem is that in order for that to happen quakelive must open up, which it has no way of doing.

Main concern here is this: This game is placed on the market to attract a certain demographic of gamers. Those gamers are supposed to play and communicate via this whole project and be handled by a professional team of community managers and PRs who communicate between gamers and developers, keeping gamers happy and playing, and developers busy and working thus earning money!

What we have here is an huge oversight by id's management which dicarded that whole notion up there and left a web based game which is pretty fast in evolving and changing, with no community handling.

I wonder who is the guy in charge for PR and community management in Bethesda?

I wonder who is the guy in charge for PR and community management in Bethesda?

probably the same guy in charge of community management for rage...

Matt grandstaff
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23177

You can see him sitting here 3rd from left with sync on the very left
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxEolQPzYYE&am...B2F811D601

it's funny how sync still labels himself as a community manager at 3:40 .... yet we're led to believe he's an associate producer...

Matt's boss is tracy thompson@5:25 and Pete hines ("our vp of pr and marketing")@5:31

lol@sync at 9:51 , who says in the background "yes it will",

that's from May 2009, I wonder if it's the same dude, and if he is actually the guy we are seeking, or someone unrelated to our needs.

the video is from august 8th, 2011 and he's still got that same position

In that case Syncerror needs to provide us with contact info for whoever is in charge of that sort of decision making. It is now apparent we have been wasting 90% of our efforts in explaining to Syncerror how QL should be managed, when all along we should have been talking to someone else.

Either he gives us the contact info so we, the community, can verbally bitchslap some sense into the people responsible, or we nuke Israel, dammit!

sounds like pete hines' boss (since pete hines is only a vp)

he doesn't need to tell any of us anything, man! He is supposed to map a new map, then release it. Maybe check on code base, maybe try to get that programmer to hurry up with AC and maybe try to get another sucker to do ladder out of his working time. A lot of maybes, so he doesn't need to tell us anything :)

On the other hand, id or bethesda are supposed to answer a question to paying customers as to who is responsible directly and in a position to do community management other than a mapper, a web coder etc.?

Great stuff chubz.

It really seems to me like Id has been on the cusp of bankruptcy for a while, yet due to their reputation they have no shortage of investors (but not for QL!), but a shortage of ways to pay back said investors.

Looks like Rage took every resource they had and more, like a petite woman giving birth to the world's largest baby.

It's hard to believe that they could have gotten so bad financially, I mean they are Id after all. Was it a case of gross mismanagement inside the business? Or something else?

But then it doesn't seem that they'd be bad off financially since they have hired more people in the last few years than ever.

Really strange stuff, what I wouldn't give to be a ghost and hang out in their building to see what's going on.

what I wouldn't give to be a ghost and hang out in their building to see what's going on

let's an hero and find out!

I think the UT3 engine had a fair bit to do with it, most games used that instead of the id tech 4. I think tech 3 was a lot more popular. Maybe tech 5 will do better.

nothing exciting about idtech 5 :/

Lack of blockbuster games. Lets look back in time since 2000 from a esports perspective:

-- Developed games:
Quake III: Team Arena (2000) - Good
Doom 3 (2004) - Bad
Quake Live (2009 - Beta) - Good

-- Publisher/Producer
Return to Castle Wolfenstein (2001) - Good
Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory (2003) - Good
Quake 4 (2005) - Bad
Enemy Territory: Quake Wars (2007) - Bad
Wolfenstein (2009) - Bad

It's been 2003 since this company had there hands in something worthwhile and that game was released to the public for free.

But then it doesn't seem that they'd be bad off financially since they have hired more people in the last few years than ever.

brampton and ash_ were let go already according to citty

I don't see that id is in difficulty financially. It's just that QL costs more to run than it brings in - it will never will make a profit, so any big expenditure on QL is just throwing good money after bad. QL is what it is, and is never going to take over the world and so suddenly turn over a profit, and id know that.

Don't forget that QL was always intended as an experiment - as a test to see how well this business model works and to collect information to help them make decisions on future titles. Because id care about the quake community they won't shut it down now that they have learnt everything they want to / can, while I can certainly believe other companies would have done.

Rage, Doom 4 etc cost waaaaay more than QL ever did, and both will bring in waaaay more than QL ever could dream of, which is why they will always come first.

there are times tho when i wish theyd do us all a kindness and shut it down.

don't hold your breath on that!
This so called experiment isn't enarly as complete as I'd like it. And when it comes down to business models I'm a total newb :)

What about modular site payment plans? What about integrating ladder tournament and clan features to an extent that you can lease the site platform for holding up a tournament to leagues?
What about pushing user limits and community limits with approved content? Think of the revenue there. Things like custom models, models for nations teams, specific maps and servers etc. expanding the advertising network across more protocols than half of us can count :)

revenue is there, even more of it, if done properly in smaller but continuous amounts.

think about it

"it will never will make a profit, so any big expenditure on QL is just throwing good money after bad. QL is what it is, and is never going to take over the world and so suddenly turn over a profit, and id know that."

that reasoning is not quite correct... or lemme rephrase, the only way to do business like I said somewhere below.

If this was the universal truth, we wouldnt have the Apple of today... this is just an example, a quick google search for "biggest company turnarounds" has countless more, of course we are talking about a product rather than a company but I think it applies for both.

why probation?

tried to plus his post, but apparently he is on probation

edit: I have no objection though if he comes from the ql forums

Because I insulted fragma on ESR after finding out he haxed for realz.

wait what? you got put on probation for insulting a cheater? by eri?

by xou

Every time I try to post the reason I am on probation, the post doesn't get through sadly. look's like I will have to IM you.

no, it's absolutely viable, but they don't want that and they don't care. I am absolutely positive that I alone could improve the QL game and website about 999999999999999999999999999999999999% in a mere week, and I'd do it for free. I don't see why not. there are other decent programmers on here as well who would.

@SyncError|home • Hiring people costs money, and we're not making enough money to justify new hires on the project.

See, this is what I don't get. It used to be if you had a product, you make an investment in time and money to make that product. Then you release it to try and recoup expenses and make a profit.

Why should we the customers be paying for, what I feel (and others), is the initial development of this product? For whatever reason(s), for 3 years now they've half-assed the development of quake live. And we get all this, "well, if you want us to do the job like it should've been done in the first place, you're going to have to pay up."

innit

Well it's what they saw as an advantage of doing a web based quake title. They were right!
When you look at web services, if run on subscription model, they intake profit over a period of time, with development costs being covered by an already running system presented to the customers.

That's why web is evolving in short bursts of development.

Another model is covered by a successful web service attracting a revenue from advertising thus covering further development costs in evolving the service.

Both of these models are integrated in Quakelive without covering the most basic things related to web and that is: listen to the community, and commit resources to a service that is and should be evolved in development.
That's the only mistake that happened with quakelive. They misused their AD system, then they introduced payment option while crippling the development team.

Most other micro-transaction games are released in a finished state, not as a broken beta.

Egg zackly.

yes, while this one didn't!
So as funct nicely puts it we had a cracked egg, which is now getting broken.
We have the chicken and we have a rooster, see where i'm going with this wonderful farmville analogy!

Suppose I go around and ask Zenimax and Bethesda or id why do we have a broken egg and no one is there to clean up the mess?
I'd get shit for an answer, right?

But what if there suddenly there's a public demand for answers, signed or what ever from quakelive paying memebrs as to why there is no full time community manager or new devs on quakelive with a full time community manager to tell us that.
And being gamers like we are, and knowing gamers on other forums run by zenimax/bethesda/id we start asking their community manager (the low level ones where is their boss?)

Go around making topics, pasting links. Making such raythenoob stuff as to j'accuse them of mishandling a game and gamers as a community? How long would it take to get some attention.
You get tek9, SK, EG, and fnatic news guys asking around for interviews, DjWheat, 2gd, Slasher, Carmack. I'm naming names, and namig them to get you to picture it.

So all I see is people either taking this game is dead but I still paly it side, or taking the side of quietly waiting on shit load of new syncerror 1 map to be released.

Congratz on a new map, but what if it's shit? What then? How are you gonna communicate that?
What about ladders, and team ladders?
I certainly don't care 2 cents about dueling other than playing occasional one or two maps with my clan mates. What about TDM and CTF ladders, points, rankings, competitive features, Scoreboard freezing so shoutcasters show us detailed scores in game and not reading them while we wait for a bunch of dudes to get ready again?
How about a little javascript magic in having a match declared and then generate stats for those team playing in the past? I mean OMG. What about a working stats at all?

Either request something as a group and demand respect like gamers, or quit :)

I for one am calling to pressure these guys, just to make sure they don't go out easy on half arsed product they charged 50 bucks for!

Pretty sure QL went open beta before the Zenimax merger, so only id can answer those questions.

How many other companies have the kind of community manager you want? Why would you expect id to have one for such a small game?

don't know what to tell you, anyone holding answers and actually giving them in a any form that would ease this would be great. I don't discriminate whether it zenimax/bethesda or id :)

Don't really know about the small part beaing that important in this case. If you're even testing out a web platform based game, that puts you in a position that you have much more contact with players, since it's surely gonna be faster changing and developing in faster cycles.
Web is community driven by it's nature, and you hire at least 1 guy to sort out the mess that is bound to happen with disgruntled players, competitive players, casual players ... young and old ...
Someone to parse through all the BS people write and comapre to game goals and policies then get to devs etc.

Now I don't quite get it are you suggesting that 1 person dedicated to this on project quakelive is too much for it? That if it was only dwon to 1500 people playing total and of those at least 500 payed that they don't deserve a proper liaison to developers?

Of all the quake titles impacting e-sport and competitive gaming, quakelive is currently the only one endorsed by id officially. aAre you suggesting they should pull resources to at least try and make this work?

I'm saying that it's quite a bit to expect such a thing, when even the biggest games don't have such community interaction. Most developers are EXTREMELY secret about everything they do, and the few that even do interact with the community are usually about as helpful as if they didn't exist at all. QL isn't exactly a revolutionary game, and you're expecting revolutionary community interaction.

nah I'm expecting they run "The experiment" as it should be run!
id's known for pushing the envelope with development!

Rationale behind this is:
A centralized web based quake titled game, based on a 12 year old title, should produce more.
More content, more meaning, more money, more advertisement, more players, more competitions.
That is if run properly.

Up to this point community managers had a lot more user base in other games, and still did not do the full potential workload on their hands. Having a full time job on it. A few mapping contests, a few name this new developing item, a few name a new game class contests. And it still worked to quite an extent.
Quake on the other hands can incorporate: Map trick contests, frag movies contests, map runs contests, skin model contests.
It can include everything from gameplay to design content as a way of promoting it self and furthering it's competitive nature, not just by mere tournament with professional players.

With all this in mind, yes you can develop a game, like rage, primary a single player title and go about your companies business as usual. But if you are trying out a new thing, and doing it wrong for 3 years, yet still have a dedicated, yet small team working on it, then switch it up a little bit. even tho your user base grows small, they grow interested still.
Extra ordinary communication is to be had with these kinds of titles.
This isn't a MMORPG which is practically a singleplayer online experience, this is an MMOFPS which takes a different tone to interacting with users of all sorts and types!

A centralized web based quake titled game, based on a 12 year old title, should produce more.
More content, more meaning, more money, more advertisement, more players, more competitions.
That is if run properly.

Why do you believe that id would be the one to do this? They have failed to do so in Quake 3, Quake 4, and now Quake Live.

Extra ordinary communication is to be had with these kinds of titles.
This isn't a MMORPG which is practically a singleplayer online experience, this is an MMOFPS which takes a different tone to interacting with users of all sorts and types!

MMORPGs aren't like singleplayer at all, and have a constant need for balance feedback. Even with that need, most MMOs do not have any sort of proper community interaction, they deal with far more players, and they even have a much higher revenue due to much higher subscription costs. They still do fine.

why haven't you already redone q3 which is open to modify, better than ql is now?

Don't really get whether you're just trolling, or really trying to cure me from my sickness of trying to help out! Yet for what seems to be the millionth time I'll say it again. You're not helping, other than compulsively trying to squash any thing anyone writes that has a remote possibility of ever going from any idea to realization. While that might cure your condition, still doesn't help anyone other than you :)

It's my time, and my dime :)

go back to ray, man, I'm of no interest to you :P

Why would I? I don't care about the game, and the best you can hope for is to preserve what we have right now. You're never going to have Q3 circa 2002 back again.

I know you have good intentions, but I hate to see you wasting them on a company that does not care about you. Much like religion, the "moderates" like yourself are enabling the damage that they are doing to the community. It doesn't really matter now, though, since the community has long since passed the point of no return.

"preserve what we have"

but you're not part of the quake community

i dont' want him. back... wtf!!! keep talking lol

but seriously, he doesn't care about ql dude, you're wasting your time talking to him. Just don't reply anymore since he has the last word, then he'll stop. He's actually the biggest troll on this site but hides it well with his mastery of the english language, too bad he wastes all his time on this "dead game" as he calls it when he could be helping the sc2 forum on this site get some activity.

Subscription model requires some kind of community feedback.

fuck updates, now we need mapsssssssssssssssssss

just open source everything and let the community continue the work

okay so does this mean i can uninstall PB from my computer now?

lol. have a plus hahaha

I so hate the cutting cost only mentality...

you are losing money right now because you didint invest enough initially (no coding time for ladder ---> no ladder ---> reduced 1v1 player base ---- > less customers). You DONT go back to a profit by just cutting costs, you decide what is missing, you try to be smart about it and choose most crucial ones, you invest again, and you hope it will start profiting.

cutting costs only is just a slow suicide in this case...

or maybe buying time until rages finally comes out.
This all seems like it isn't planned at all, they wanted to do public beta for a year, closed beta for a year, and maybe 1 year of few updates until rage comes out so they can untie more developers back to other projects.

Since rage is pretty late, so is anything started in midst of rage :)

if rage is late on arrival, so too is any development on ql. Could be another year before we see something.

If we are gonna talk about closed beta, they should have done it blizzard style and waited another 6 months (whatever needed) and launched the game with ladders and the features cpma and osp had already added (scoreboard comes to mind for example). IT would have been a bigger success at the least...

anyways, they are not gonna relocate ppl from rage to qlive if they just think "its losing money, lets cut costs and hope it somehow evens out"

Agreed, they should've run closed beta for as long as possible, even until rage comes out as far as I'm concerned. But they went public with a half baked quake setting current community developed stuff years back. Yet they managed to provide and uphold infrastructure that pretty much centralizes everything quake related and can use it to expand the game which ever way anyone can think of.

exposed JSON API is one way to provide developers with a way to develop tools like QL ranks, which can be integrated into QL if needed, and when it is decided.

As for relocating people on a project that is costing and loosing money. Who is going to ask them to do that? Syncerror and people left over on QL team which might feel really under appreciated anyway being left out of the main projects loop. They can't present any case for QL other then justify why they couldn't save it.
On the other hand, I see people here running a different story. Sirax running a service which made dueling other than high ranking that is popular. Which made people want to play and track their record.

I see poeple on CB and HOW and JeeSports and Zotac runing cups and tourneys in every mode availible. There's even some NA initiative going on.

So who better to present and represent QL's case than what community there is.

As for advertisement, development, etc, given time those can jump.

I'm not talking real figures, I'm talking for starters getting any sort of interview or response for people who aren't there for this game and should be, as to why there are players around paying money for stuff that they aren't providing?

I think I deserve 50 dollars worth of answers. I'd get more bribing anyone to gimme answers with that! Not to mention renewing my sub.

you're renewing? holy batman smokes!

i don't think anyone but zenimax can answer your questions or care to. Good luck, let us know how it goes. I support your project :) the more info the better.

ye prolly! I agree that the project is flawed, but I like the possibilities and a platform for an e-sports traditional game which almost made it what it is!

It's not gonna run out of my love for it just because people make mistakes, or gonna run out of my support for that matter :)

But i'm usually stupid that way :)

What's so great about the platform?

because it's accessible and can maintain quakesque features! Web work wonders in having people intensely hooked on site features, statistics, tweeting, sharing, watching etc.

Now if you were to have much more readable content, and communication channels integrated then you'd be checking stuff out on it even on you phone :)

I mean look at how much responses and people follow this topic alone, god forbid it'd be taken on quakelive forums :)
Or for quakelive to have an employee working on approving community based content, trying to find people to do those etc.

Platform is good, potential is good :)

..and you need permission from id to host a LAN.

yea because the whole game play other than lans is held online, torunaments enjoy online setting, and players enjoy home computer settings.

We aren't all turning pro just yet to need to play lans and win prizes. Tho id' like that to happen someday :)

Lans are needed for in country communities to streghten and prove to each other who is real and who is fake. QL is based on this happening under controlled settings run by them. If they had money, they'd hire a resident european team, heck they'd even get ppl like stermy to volunteer to further the lan efforts if needed.

I'm not saying not having a dedicated client to run your own games is good, or that since it's centralized it'll happen ever. But as I've said the platform is good for what are games today, and it has potential!

It's not possible to host a LAN with friends. It's not possible to easily add QuakeLive to a major LAN (and even if id had dedicated more resources to this issue, there still would be mistakes). Efforts to strengthen the playerbase fall short of what could be because we don't have these community-building options.

yeah but communities aren't built purely on LANs. I get that it may be much more convenient to have regular lan parties. But you can just as easily use web as the same platform today. Most conncetions are broadbands, and most quakers tend to have them since ping is of utmost importance!

If ping is of utmost importance, why can't I play on ping 5 with friends?

If I could tell you that, I'd eat my self up and kick myself to hell and back again.
Look I'm not defending their lack of dedicated client for lan games.

I say we need it.

There's just a small thing of sifting through a loooong looong list, going over from closed beta even of features players want.

I personally don't find lan support as urgent as you do, tho our backgrounds and play style and local communities are much different so we require different things. I'm even first to say, I don't care about things I want from the game if I'm certain they'll get done. Your suggestion takes precedence over anything I have as far as in game and around game stuff.

I give priority to recovering advertisement systems, and trying to expand with the content community suggested to area that weren't covered thus far. I give priority to site features development, as it could provide faster results and more interest in quake live.

I also hope defrag will come back, RA3 arenas would be implemented as default quake ingame interface.
i don't really care that much about the old maps, other than have them released to free public play and setting up a standard time circle of new competitive map pool being developedand approved twice in a year making two seasonal runs of new map content in competitive modes.
Put that into perspective of things happening, and people talking about it, and you'll get slight increase in gaming population, then you'll expand on that with tournaments etc.

Nice little plan I know, and that LAN client should be a big part of it, making local lan tournament easy to setup and spread the word about this game.

Let me reiterate:

Problems with LAN are inherent to the model (which is based on total control of the platform). Same as problems with adding 3rd party content (which is what made the quake community what it is right now).

That is why I'm saying the platform isn't great.

I said good not perfect, since if it was perfect this thread or anything based on QL whine and must do lists wouldn't exist :)

thanks for making that point tho!

I agree that synch and remaining company (I hear its just the web developer?) can hardly convince anyone, I am just hoping for a miracle here that someone worthwhile in Id or bethesda actually goes "hmmm, wait a second...."

well i'd like to know hows that a full fledged web developer gets overtaken with siraxes after school betwenn mvoeing, and girfriend time efforts in making a web service full of stuff to know, full of stats.
And all of that using only json data they have exposed.

I know there should be at least 1 backend dev, and 2 frontend devs to cover bunch of fetures this site need, at bare minimum they have 1 backend guy doing the works. That's lame, that's like going to carmack and saying:
John sry man, do the maps, while coding this new engine, and don't forget to do a nice PR management about it everyday!

Tho we should get this confirmed: if there is really just 1 backend guy doing all the web work then help might yet be acquired. I mean bunch of people do JS in their colledge or school rpojects, or even professionally. It's a standard web service, and can be experimented with Grease monkey. You do some code, and integrate it, then release it as a JS pack, get a few other devs in real life to approve of the code, then submit it to sync and or ordus, and or sponge and wait. Updates to the site might get quicker.

all you say is correct, they just need to increase the budget a bit for that to happen.


seriously though, what is a team of even 5 developers gonna cost bethesda or even Id software, thats like nothing for them.

yeah yeah I might not know what I am talking about etc etc, but if even that is a strain for these companies then they are in deep trouble

for site to be fixed, maybe even no budget increase, jut a way for community to implement and get approved for site changes. web technologies are pretty open.
Yet there is little or no need to really change backend code once it's done, as it shouldn't be changed much once it's done. Front end and html/JS/anything else could be worked on by volunteer devs from the community.

Deciding on a good graph tool and changing over the stats page to include stuff per mode with graphs and pie charts would be extra. Integrating that with GM in FF would be even better, sending screens and releasing code to id so they can implement it licence free, rights free, no cost would be best. (Maybe author mention for concepting the layout and writing the code stuff needed)

You are speaking of a community team assisting Id software under their guidance, giving ideas and implementing them. Did I get that right?

Yeah but it doesn't have to be so rigid in description. ie.
I usually do python development in my spare time from college girlfriend and quake, nothing frontend mind you. I dwelt in some jQuery things, but nothing as high level as seen on qlRanks and qlStats. Meaning I have no idea how to do graphs, and what plugins to use.

Now if I'd get some free time and do a jQuery div box showing how my aim increses over time with certain game mode matches showable when you click on that gamemode bar in statistics page, and then release it and publish it as my code contribution to QuakeLive's page.

Got it tested and run by few community members, got it checked out by a few real developer as to see if my code is clean enough to be used in real web environment, what reason do they have to turn my submission away, if it helps their site?

That will get even the lesser programmers and those learning the trade around these parts involved. If you show that any piece of code helps but only the real and best code gets applied to the project. Then they have no rationale not to use your code.

Also it provokes more communication between devs and community. Meaning if I'm using QL ELO script now and it's pretty simple to implement, why don't they do it? It doesn't need backend support since it has resources tied to siraxes web service, so load on the system is lesser, until they implement it themselves, then they can mostly use already gathered data without needing to run queries covering pro matches from a year ago.

Before the simple match browser in quake tehre was one like that made in with greasemonkey.
What they really did is copy it and released it as their own. The idea is the same, only they quadrupled the development time by having to reinvent the code for it themselves.

So if they lack developers, and they are slow, and they take a long time to do simplest things, why not offer them some code in exchange for moving things on our priority lists up a notch. Cutting time they need to develop certain things on a platform common enough and widely used by everyone today, ie: JavaScript!

Nice, and I bet there are quite a few ppl out there that would each contribute something for such a thing. would speed up things alot for qlive.

Ofc changes to the engine or other deep changes (netcode) would require more access, but I see where you are getting at

First of all, all this code will have to be reviewed, if not integrated. id are not going to run your arbitrary XSS hacks on every system that chooses to trust them. So, considering the simplicity of the features you're talking, this is going to be more resources than to do it all themselves. This doesn't make sense in the context.

Maybe, but since they don't have to outsource them, rather they can develop them just not reinvent the wheel.

If we're considering quakelive as a test case for system that will be leased to other companies, or other games and other projects, then yes, they have to guarantee for every line of code inside it.
Why can't they guarantee that for pieces of code written by the community and integrated into their quakelive system.

I mean reviewing the code takes much less time then writing it. And you have tested it on the site already via GreaseMonkey.

It's not supposed to be too easy, or too open, or perfect. It should get some work done, and involve anyone interested in the community while feeding the rest of people around a feeling that they have contributed and have members inside the community who make an impact on the game outside of just playing.
Consider that there's a whole other layer of contribution and communication we're talking about now, whole new aspect to consider.

"I mean reviewing the code takes much less time then writing it."

What in the world makes you think that? Patches and fixes, yes. Many lines of original functionality that needs to be understood and vetted for security and speed, no.

agreed yet the security par cannot be implemented by any community coder, meaning, all the site candy and funcionalities like maybe chatrooms and Clan ELO scores, and player ELO scores can be coded by community then evaluated and implemented inside a safe environment by id. Cuts the time of writing the easy open level stuff.

What? No. He means that ALL code has to be checked for security sake, not that the community would be writing security code. No matter what you write, they would have to comb over the entire thing in order to make sure that it was not malicious. He's saying that the time spent on checking every line of code would take about as long as just writing the code out.

seems you're programming for existence!
From my experience, snippets of code are reviewed and take less time to understand what's been written if documented properly than writing and coming up with variables and algorithms yourself.

I mean there is whole programming movement behind this called Open Source. Where you have core programmers and contributors, Core programmers write code, but also check code being contributed by less authorised developers as to not compromise security of the project being developed.

Also we're talking small scale, don't know how do you come back with confusing rhetoric when I've made myself quite clear.

Further on, we're talking about stuff that is pretty elementary when it comes to way to refine and expand a web based project

This isn't just some open source program to be used by individuals, id would be liable if they didn't review the code. You not only have to worry about the servers themselves, but also the damage it could cause to each and every person who plays the game.

Basically you're saying that qlranks should exists. Since it has direct access to data inside quakelive the same data you're arguing should be protected.

So if there's a back entrance into that data it's already available in qlranks site and id is in shitworld of trouble :)

You seem to choose to ignore what I'm talking about! JavaScript development.

Security risks include HTML injection, Crossite trafic, Tracking cookies, etc...
It is natural for the code to be checked, but it's not that complicated. It's a piece of code mostly not more than 50 lines of html and 10 lines of JS code submitted checked and tested within a day and released.

I didn't say they should setup git and open source code, and server backend to the public, neither would I wish that at this point in time.

Are you using the ql elo ranking script linked on their site?
It's a nice piece of code that runs and adds palyers elo rank when you check out player on the server, very useful, very clean, very nice piece of code?
Why not have a way of submitting that to QLs web dev and get it approved and integrated into the site?

And now before you get into that it pulls data from another site, and that it would require integrating the whole ELO scoring system into quakelive so it can all be inhouse.
I wrote about that piece of code as an example of type of code that could be endorsed being submitted by the community.

It is natural for the code to be checked, but it's not that complicated. It's a piece of code mostly not more than 50 lines of html and 10 lines of JS code submitted checked and tested within a day and released.

That's exactly what he was saying to you - that the time it takes to check the code is about as long as it would take to write the code yourself, so there is really no need to deal with the community.

I wrote about that piece of code as an example of type of code that could be endorsed being submitted by the community.

... and that is the kind of thing that id can do on their own. The only valuable thing that could be taken from the community is very large scale work, but even that becomes just as problematic when you have to review the code.

You take a point refuted, and resurrect it using other peoples argument as fact.

Here, use mine now:
Why loose time on planning smaller features, and coding them, when you can instead use a piece of code produced by community and implement it with larger scale work you're doing?

You don't have grounds here to argument otherwise since this is true and a fact in coding, that on it self produced things like code generators, IDE environments to ease up coding on a larger scale by implementing done features and code snippets useful for getting a more complex programme done. Not to mention many frameworks incorporating graph tools, ajax implementation, graphical div manipulation, ready made, and safe features to use and upgrade or change however you like.

We're talking here about a thing that could help out. I didn't even dare to think you'd be all for it, or even approve :)

Now maybe someone with more experience can try suggesting a way to let's say try to setup or open a repository for releasing any code to id.

... if they had enough time to check small code, they'd have enough time to WRITE small code. I'm not "against" the idea at all, but I'm simply telling you why it wouldn't work.

ok now tell me the more likely scenario:
They prepare an update and they write a big backend piece of code, like ranks for instance. They can write the smaller piece too. But since there is one existing, they can just review that one and include it.

a. They go a obv write their own stuff wasting more time
b. they review the code snippet approve and include it

you must be daft missing a point here:

a. They post enws about the update containing the ranks code and their snippet. ESR and most users go: Big fing whoop guys, we had that 3 months ago.
b. They include the snippet, say thanks to the developer in the news.
You go: But that shouldn't work, ESR and forums Go big fucking whoop you guys, we had that a month ago, but a part of the same community goes. WTF they included our code ... GG

Lets write something, lets contribute

Can some admin change this guys nickname to Marvin, feeling like on a Turing test here :)

Do you know how long id's code review takes?

Do you know hoe long it takes for you to review my code, if it's documented properly?

How about standards? inline comments?

Documented? Sign, this is not an "in house" code review. The base assumption with all this 'contributed' code needs to be that it is potentially malicious.

You really aren't listening here. You're talking about code that could impact the game as such, servers as such and backend and database.

I'm talking about clinet side, frontend code, which impacts the user, and which users can install and run for themselves!

Do you understand the difference?

Let's try it another way.
If someone writes a useful and good IRCbot that hooks to exposed data by quakelive site and uses it to help people play and find matches, why wouldn't it be released and provided hosting by id. Leaving community happier for it and id. Not using their development time to write an ircbot.

If this doesn't suits the two of you, then say:
I don't think it will work! I don't care about it anyway!

then left click the little X on the right(or left) corner of you site tab and leave it alone.
Just because you think it won't work, that doesn't make you right, or being given godly governance of other peoples actions, or efforts.

:)

"Do you understand the difference?"

Do you? Do you think airplanes have to be checked before flying because the airlines fear for the expensive planes?

Do they check people too because they fear of brain?

Security is paramount! Is it easily checked for?
If they're under hacker attack, would it really be secure anyway? A real underground hacker strike? Is anyone secure?

Damage can be done anyway, have someone develop a backdoor into your browsers security on that elo script you are using anyway.
You rage a blame id - tehy didn't develop it themsleves, why should you rely on community work done for them. They are to blame.

Shit you can bring down quakelive in a few scripts like these right now! Why not?
And they can't even check such code! Or improve on it, or make it more secure and have centralized distribution for it.

GG

I'm not sure what you're trying to say at all. But I think this might help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_liability

I guess we are looking at a completely different picture.
In your picture nothing ever changes, this game is going to die, and we are to sit here and discuss what they have done wrong.

My picture sees quakelive as a game still played, and us TELLING them what is wrong, on any level possible. not just by discussing it here, and me having turns with you and vedic in gay writing threesomes!

It should be implemented, on a low level, sooner or later.

People would appreciate a chance to contribute not just with content, by with code.

Since it is web centralized interface there is even a fine line to which you can make your contributor never pass beyond a certain safety line, and still have them interested enough to develop certain features they can see and copy, or rewrite to their liking, but if those would be endorsed, then there would be more people trying.

I get that you are saying that they can not in all good will take any code and just put it into their system . It makes it unsafe, it makes them financially liable to their paying customers if something goes wrong, and that you are saying that it would take more resources than they have now to make this happen.

That's why I'm not saying that I want it NOW, or tomorrow.

But a question comes to mind: Was any success Q3A had related to community modding, and stuff developed by players, and game enthusiasts? I think yes, mods are even played today largely due to hitting a sweet spot for certain types of players.

Now a natural thing, since ql is based on Q3A is to have a possibility to have developers make mods for QL later on. And it should be expected since this is an older type of community that you have developers of wide variety which amongst all other things do some web developing themselves. SO they can help with the site, which is the core of QL.

That is what I'm saying.

Have you considered factually validating your perception?
Where do you see me saying this game is dead and and all that other crap?
Why do you think community code contributions are a necessity for a centralized game system, have you heard of blizzard?
etc

My perception in based on what if, so it's not up for factual validation unless things start to change.

Change is the necessity I'm arguing here. Not community code contributions.
They can't even be enforced by id! Nor they should. I'm saying it's a natural extension of a growing community.
They are certainly not a necessity, but why not try to prepare and endorse something like that?

What is it you guys are afraid of? That it wouldn't work?
Well is the current state of the game working for anyone?
We have noobs miserable, amateur players miserable, hardcore players miserable. So what the hell is wrong with trying to come with things to change?

What is wrong with telling them, it would be good to have things like community contributions to an extent integrated and supported by the company?

"My perception in based on what if, so it's not up for factual validation unless things start to change."

Perception is inward and based on factual observations and reasoning.

"Change is the necessity I'm arguing here. Not community code contributions."

No, I think you've been talking about code contributions to me the whole time. But it is hard to tell what you're talking about because you kind of rumble and state a bunch of unrelated things like they actually follow.

"They can't even be enforced by id! Nor they should. I'm saying it's a natural extension of a growing community."

And I agree. These greasemonkey scripts, wolfcams, etc, exist without id's involvement and are optional to use. Great.

"They are certainly not a necessity, but why not try to prepare and endorse something like that?"

Yeah, why not? Let's make an ESR forum post listing all the scripts, if they are not already listed. What does id Software have to do with it? I already described why its counter-productive for them to spend resources on this about 10 times.

"What is it you guys are afraid of? That it wouldn't work?"

Who are the 'guys', why are you clumping them together, and why would they be afraid of anything? If you're asking why id Software should not spend resources on community software projects, the answer has been given many times. For every dollar they spend on this, they would have done more by themselves. How many times should this be repeated?

"Well is the current state of the game working for anyone?"

Yes, plenty of people are playing the game, myself included. It's working, and it can be improved. Because it can be improved, it doesn't mean it's not working.

"We have noobs miserable, amateur players miserable, hardcore players miserable. So what the hell is wrong with trying to come with things to change?"

Where do you find all these miserable people? I don't see anyone being miserable because of a computer game without some deeper psychological problem, which makes QL irrelevant to their misery. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to come up with things to change *for the better*. Some change is just not positive. I don't know what particular change you have in mind.

"What is wrong with telling them, it would be good to have things like community contributions to an extent integrated and supported by the company?"

Nothing is wrong with telling them this once and bringing this up for consideration. If, after consideration, it is deemed counter productive, it is wrong to keep telling them to do it.

Perception is inward and based on factual observations and reasoning.

But you can express it talking about what you see as things that are, and how you see they should be.

No, I think you've been talking about code contributions to me the whole time. But it is hard to tell what you're talking about because you kind of rumble and state a bunch of unrelated things like they actually follow.

Granted, my writing skills, combined with my really weird train of thought, mixed with english not being my native language produces a lot of crap. But originally I wrote about many things that could be done, and should be taken into consideration, bringing some new stuff on the table of already many proposals for this game to be better. So I'm arguing change, on every level imaginable.

And I agree. These greasemonkey scripts, wolfcams, etc, exist without id's involvement and are optional to use. Great.

So what is wrong with taking scripts that can be an asset to the game and integrating them into quakelives web site?
Not instantly, but over a prolonged period of time ...

Yeah, why not? Let's make an ESR forum post listing all the scripts, if they are not already listed. What does id Software have to do with it? I already described why its counter-productive for them to spend resources on this about 10 times.

And all those reasons are valid right now. They are working with loses, they are having shortage in developers, they can't invest any money, they aren't gaining new player that's for sure etc...
Then there is the whole setting up of a way code can be contributed legally and effectively.

You are working on a premise that I'm only pulling this crap out of my ass, and that I really have no clue what we're talking about.
I know ... It's not easy, nor it should be. But as you agree later, it's a thing to consider.

Who are the 'guys', why are you clumping them together, and why would they be afraid of anything? If you're asking why id Software should not spend resources on community software projects, the answer has been given many times. For every dollar they spend on this, they would have done more by themselves. How many times should this be repeated?

The "guys" are people that find the slightest hair in someones post to split, proving that someone wrong on a point, even if they wholeheartedly agree with the basic premise, or even if they don't agree at all.
And then instead of posting something constructive in a way that takes that point, or any point they can agree upon and say: "The rest is shit, this yould work if done like so...." and then actually participate in a constructive manner.

Yes, plenty of people are playing the game, myself included. It's working, and it can be improved. Because it can be improved, it doesn't mean it's not working.

Hey it's working for me too. Not for ddk tho, he is trying his skill in quakeworld, not for a few friends of mine who I talked into trying this game out only to get tier slummed on tier 1 and 2 servers.
Not by premium players who pay for maps that aren't played, on servers that aren't used.

When I said is this working for anyone, I meant the general direction this game is going to. Slow decline, nothing will change, people don't care, id doesn't care shit whole :)
Well that isn't working for anyone playing quake or loving the game. Noobs, amateurs, pros included.

Where do you find all these miserable people? I don't see anyone being miserable because of a computer game without some deeper psychological problem, which makes QL irrelevant to their misery. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to come up with things to change *for the better*. Some change is just not positive. I don't know what particular change you have in mind.

I found them talking with friends over some cofee breaks. When you hear things like:
'Man, I'm not even gonna try again ... It was terrible, the players disconnectiong, there was someone with a bot, there were people WAAAAY over my skill level.'
I found them talking in irc, trying to stay cool and not provoke, but still can hold their teeth back and lash out with questions like WHY ISN'T THIS OR THAT DONE IN A LOOOONG PERIOD OF TIME SINCE THE GAME IS OUT!

On the second note:
If you found changes for the better, at least some that you can agree upon, and feel them as something that you could even try doing something about. Then do it, I'm not gonna say a word about you being right, or wrong, I'd like to see people like you start writing, start communicating more about things that are change for the better. As for changes in my mind, I'd really take any that has a plan behind it not just about improving the feeling inside the game, but also attracting and getting things around the game sorted out.

Nothing is wrong with telling them this once and bringing this up for consideration. If, after consideration, it is deemed counter productive, it is wrong to keep telling them to do it.

I agree, it shouldn't be forced upon anyone. It's not even my point.
If considered, or even if they try and say, it can't be done. That is what it is, a proposition that failed.
Tho let's be serious about things considered and the way they are considered, by whom, and why.
If they considered things, maybe we wouldn't be in a situation where things are getting done faster by community then by id.
Where people are leaving the game because they must've considered implementing an AC but just haven't gotten around to it. Even to go as far, as we're not developing it ourselves but we're using an outsorced off the clock developer to do it for us in house.
They can say anything, any time. And that should be taken with just a hint of suspicion.

As you've just said, it's not even up to us to debate about HOW much validity one or the other proposal carries with it. It is for them to say, and to have someone saying:
chubz, you proposal won't work because it can't be regulated with current company legal state. We cannot accept code because it would produce problem like this and that, which we know because we have tried it. Thanks for the suggestion, keep up with the good work.

Well you really should post anything to this. I really don't have anything more to say on this subject. You like some ideas, go and promote them. You don't like my ideas, still I like them and I am going to promote them. Maybe they won't work now. I'll say them anyway, you should try doing that with anything you feel should be said about the game. Not concentrate on me being wrong about something :)

Cheers

.. the coding review will take almost as long, if not equally/longer. The argument that they could include small code does not matter, since if they had the time to review small code, they would have the time to WRITE small code.

that what happens when you ignore the other part of the story. Man you are out of your swimming pool, and have no idea :)

The rest of your post is irrelevant, since you are ignoring the basic fact that review will roughly take the same time.

nice avoiding the difference between faster, and roughly the same.
One get you a frag, wins you a race, and get's you the girl. The latter makes you a bitter old vedic on ESR forums :)

"nice avoiding the difference between faster, and roughly the same."

And is there a difference between those, for a business?

is there a difference between a happier community, and a sense of involvement and them taking their time to write even things written by now!

What's the business like, does it have quakeliveish predispositions?

If so then there is a big difference. One I described already :)

You failed to answer, but no, there isn't, business is not about taking 90% failure risks. It's simply a no-go. Now, if they had much more resources, and if there was actually a crowd of people clamoring to add their own stuff, instead of say, like 3 people, they would create an API and an interface for a plug-in system, and people would have to sign 'TOS' where they basically agree that id is not responsible for what the plugins they're running are doing. Unfortunately, this is the only way, and the 'if's aren't true.

"is there a difference between a happier community, and a sense of involvement and them taking their time to write even things written by now!"

What? The happiness of the community won't matter when a news article purporting that id Software has spread thousands of trojans hits the 'uh what were they thinking derp derp' G4 network or something.

"What's the business like, does it have quakeliveish predispositions?"

No, it doesn't. It has profitability predispositions.

which quakelive fits into perfectly, right? SInce they're operating on a loss, they mismanaged everything they could and fucked up anywhere they could. :)

lolled so hard on that profitability :)

3 users, 5 users, 10 users. Making it an option to write something, and having your userbase increased, slowly but steadily would make users more interested in contributing. The thing is, it doesn't cost them anything to have it supported.

It costs them to have it checked and implemented. That's where programmers time and money goes away. But tell me, do they really have to check 1000 of lines from 3 users? Or does it take that much time for 3 users.

So what this whole conversation started is: supporting community contribution!

If they do, then it's more likely people will contribute.

Implementing is another matter that is to be discussed if something ever comes worth implementing, right?

Since the content of the subject is speculative at best, then it's not graceful or even smart to argue it. Motivation behind the gathering of the subjects content is another matter, and should be supported by id, and by you, and by anyone that cares.

Not by vedic tho, just to be clear!

1. QuakeLive is a business. It doesn't mean they're profitable, it means they are not doing things that will incur more losses, as the goal is to be more profitable.
2. Doing contributions wrong is deadly for this business because of business liability laws and public relations, not to mention product quality.
3. Doing contributions right is not feasible at this point, and isn't likely to return as many resources as it would cost.

Your intentions are good, and I really like them, so I hope you stop rambling, start being realistic and move on from the points which aren't debatable. Good Luck.

Maybe it isn't feasible now. But tell me why not voice it out.
You like it, I like it!
We are debating whether it is doable, when we should be debating how it should be done, which in turn offers more prospect to have thing ready when such a suggestion is ripe to be set in motion.

Not voicing this, then giving up in debating with trolls like vedic is really just doing nothing nothing but wishful thinking.

I intend to drop this, but still have it said and pointed out whenever possible.

Maybe that a time for this will come, maybe it won't, I'm not gonna tire myself with that.

Just want it out there, and expected. I'd even like people like you to say it's a right thing to DO when and if that moment comes.

p.s. things that aren't debatable in your opinion are?
(you can IM if you don't want vedic down your throat too :) )

I thought it was obvious, the three things I listed are not debatable. Every single post I made reiterates why it's not feasible... I don't see the point in repeating myself.
What's feasible is to ask id to design things with some API aspects in mind that they can expose, such as clear separation of data, access control, stable interface, versioning. Then multiple sites like qlranks can compete based around this.

"what is a team of even 5 developers gonna cost bethesda or even Id software"

oh, at least half a million dollars first year.

what would IMF say ; >

raise subscribation cost from 50 to 150 =)))

Haha, good times!

<3

you must be enjoying yourself as "associate producer"

keep looking away from those av8r screenshots sync.

btw instead of trolling, you should probably be trying to save your customers instead
http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php...unt-please

Dude, just stop..

tho he could've clarified a few things by spending another 2 minutes in writing something like:

ladder - not developed
maps - coming
AC - as quoted
scoreboards - will be renewed

don't tell me couldn't have!

Sync can help and can communicate when he feels like it, I get that and respect any effort on his part in that way.
Whether ray is right, i'm impartial until that happens to more players and there is a case to be presented!

i already presented a case about av8r and incubus. sycnerror just refused to take care of his responsibilities. Anyone can challenge him on those 2, you're gonna love the answers lol

We all know that ray, even my lifeless computer mouse know about that how many itmes I highlighted your rant about av8r and incubus etc.

We know, we got it, thanks for it. Now take a step back from it, and leave it to come to a resolved state by time, and questions, and other peoples experience regarding those matters.

Ray don't you get sick of writing the same shit over and over again. At lease Sync's post was pleasant! Short I know but pleasant!

stop yourself, who asked you to come here and troll?

Nobody asked you either and yet your still around posting your fucking BULLSHIT.

bye.

... and many people asked him to leave ...

u mad?

Option to vote timelimit 15 in duel already plz ...

you can set it when spawning a server, get pro ;)

I'm aware of that, but I didn't renew my subscription. I would gladly pay for GTV and other stuff worth the money, but not for basic commands. Hey, why not set TDM timelimit to 10 and CTF to 5 and make people pay to change it back to 20? What a wonderful idea ...

id isn't making enough money from QL? That seems to be wrong, because they can still afford to ignore the community. They're still making too much money! Or why do they still making "updates" with maps nobody played in Q3 already like Industrial Accident and full of cvars no one asked for if that wasn't true?

this year there wasn't a quakecon/august update

To paying customers that's a clear sign that, at this rate, the game will be shut down in a year or so, or that it's declining quite a lot.

http://www.quakelive.com/#!news/site_news/17299

Update 2 weeks before QuakeCon, bringing clan profiles and new mercylimit, TDM scoreboard and Quad kill counter for TDM tournament at QuakeCon.

scheduled update after 2 months without any news in between, that didn't bring much to the table really.

a "quakecon" update is a totally different thing. This july's update doesn't compare to the updates made previous years, which both consisted in actual content instead of applying things made and thought entirely by the tdm community.

Actually I was expecting a business model change and the content that didn't make july's patch, which was 2 maps and a couple of commands, but w/e. And maybe, maybe, spacecamp and winters edge.

someone is coding things in his spare time, not a qldev, that was very polite, but i cant stop smiling whenever i think of it. Prolly sync was layed back in his seat looking on irc, than looking up, and saw a janitor maybe, he smiled and wrote that stuff

means he is well off his hours on a job, which is what most people can't say they'd do in that kind of situation.

edit:
also, could mean some RAGE dev actually likes quake and playing it off hours :) and wants to help out :P

Your edit is quite likely, IMO.

Also, I'm amazed people don't seem to get that Sync loves Quake
too.

I like your optimism, would be nice if you were right. As for the topic, i think the amount of technical difficulties the game has encountered, weigh (and added more unhappy, later quiting users) alot more than the lack of new coding / material added. It how I see it since 2008 autumn

fucking syncerror is so slow...............wtf
NGL is still trying to contact him and he hasn't hit them up yet. its been like a year.
North America could've had a lan scene by now -_-

wow really/ still? after all this time he still hasn't gotten in contact with them? ffs...

he did today! finally =) must've read that post

haha that just shows you how freaking out of touch he is. The guy spends half his day on irc listening to fanboys but totally neglects the real userbase on the ql forum and here. And the other half of his day he spends making maps only .0001% will play.

Wouldn't id move the team to doom 4 after rage?
Especially if rage gets a slow start or ends up bad ( I hope not ).

But if rage sells well enough doesn't that mean they can buy time for doom 4 and QL ?

how many copies do they need to sell to make it profitable? what is the budget on rage?

No idea , but it seems like it would be a massive amount.

So, id software does not have the resources to keep updating the game. This is sad, but it's understandable. I guess that for the same reason, they cannot affort to code a proper SDK, so any developer should have access to their proprietary code.

What I wonder if they could hire external contractors, which would work for free but have a regular contract that guarantees things are id's property, so that things could be done.

We're still dedicated to updating Quake Live. I'm currently working on map content for an upcoming release.

thats good to hear. please contact ngl =)

how can we help?

hello! pro paying customer here with some requests! could you please fix the stair bug?! would be nice to see some netcodce fix so "wifi" users arent warping for everyone else yet see everything smooth as fuck on their side(basically amounts to a lagbot cheat) also the rail beam graphic it hits lower than ur crosshair! zoom in long range and fire you'll see it.

those 3 things are literally the only in-game things that bug me(especially the stair bug) other than that the game is perfect in my eyes!

*holds breathe*

Watch out! You can die of asphyxia this way.

Its actually impossible to kill yourself by holding your breath. Best you could do is pass out, then your body would just kick in on its own. :)

sounds like a challenge

damn, i was counting on that method if I ever needed to kill myself quickly.

1. no
2. If you had any clue why the game acts this way you'd be ashamed to even ask for something like this.
3. #vidiyagames #care

1. why "no"?
2. does it matter if i know how it works or not? it doesnt happen in other games why should we deal with it in quake?

1. it's not a bug.
2. You either mess with client prediction settings ( that's what makes your client stay smooth and responsive despite pinging 150 and warping like shit ) and risk fucking up people with decent smooth connections but spikes or packets delayed by their isp or you can let the server or client extrapolate/pretend tons of shit like all those games you're thinking about.

so what is it a feature that u can shoot a rocket 1cm in front of someone and get 0 dmg? i mean even the tiny "step" infront of ztn mega and lg can nullify your rocket. I can't see how anyone who actually plays the game would want to keep that in the game.

what zealot said. The other option would be to make splash damage wrap around corners but hf tweaking it as everybody will find it to be too much or too little.

why is that the only other option? please use your brain for a second. again ill point to other games, ut3 rockets dont have this splash damage problem why should quake? shit coding or what? and if its a coding problem they cant be arsed to fix well then fix the fuckin maps. just sitting there like a twat saying "deal with it" isn't really constructive.

Fix the maps....








I'm sorry I thought we were talking about quakelive.

way to ignore half my post.

I'm not, you're the one who is casually ignoring the main reason why all your suggestions are pointless.

enable damage through floors and you will see the "stair bug" fixed, but good luck dealing with all the fuck ups it creates in other situations.

wifi warp is something wifi users should fix? again, i believe you would introduce a lot of other problems when trying to "fix" something like this via netcode.

ofcourse wifi users should fix it, but why would they when its no problem for them its only their opponent who has to deal with it! i appreciate thats its not a simple thing to fix but again other games don;t seem to have this problem and the hitreg seems fine!

That's the thing. It seems fine.
Those games are slower. Those games have random spread/recoil/whatever, not railguns. Now please use your brain for a second.

sigh.. ut2k4 isnt exactly slower and doesnt suffer from the same problem way q3 and q4 didnt have the same problem.

stop looking for an ego boost in every fuckin comment.. i feel like i'm having a discusion with a prepubescent teen.

ut2k4 has one of the worst netcodes you could imagine, ask people who actually played it back then.
Q3/q4 didn't have the same problem : people didn't have shit wifi back then, did they? And the absence of antilag meant people actually cared about getting good connections.

i've played ut2k4 in the past and recently, no idea what your talking about with the "worst netcode imaginable" maybe if your playing with 100+ping but who the fuck plays with that?

"Q3/q4 didn't have the same problem : people didn't have shit wifi back then, did they?" what did wifi just come out in 2009 with the release of ql? when people lagged in those games it was actually a disadvantage.

I mean what the fuck is your stance anyway? the stair bug and warpy players just isn't acceptable or enjoyable for anybody, no one who plays the game regularly would want to keep it like that or argue for it to stay that way.

My stance ? You can't modify the way stairs work unless you invest in noise cancelling headphones or pour in enough money for id to consider modifying maps/entities/whateve a good move.

As for the people warping, I'll just quote you " i've played ut2k4 in the past and recently, no idea what your talking about with the "worst netcode imaginable" maybe if your playing with 100+ping but who the fuck plays with that? ".
id can't patch retards. The only way to make it slightly less retarded would hinder you aswell ( just think about playing a guy warping that much in osp, they wouldn't bs rail you anymore but you'd be grossed out as well by the warp+timenudge combo )

2k3, maybe? I don't ever remember netcode issues in ut2k4.

How about the way splash damage works on ramps? I'm wondering if the step recesses were filled with weapclips so its like one big weapclip ramp, it could solve it? Not that id would want to redistribute all the maps though, but it could fix some annoying bits like on the little ledges on ztn mh etc

Maybe a loc for asylum too :)

Stop wasting time and resources on useless maps that no one is going to play, because no one has any incentive to renew their subs. Instead FOCUS ALL YOUR EFFORT ON SOMETHING THAT WILL GIVE PEOPLE THE INCENTIVE TO RESUB (hint: it's not more maps).

Anticheat, ladders, GTV, more payment options, etc. Those things are infinitely more important. You say you have one guy working on creating an anticheat? Why dont you fucking help him?

The only maps that people want dont even need to be worked on, they were already made for q3. And their absence from the game isnt even holding it back that much.

Prioritize FFS.

he said that anticheat is being developed (but in reality it won't be finished)

ladders are here. Made by the community because of id's incompetence

sync can't do anything about adding payment options


what he (and his team of 0 people) can do is to get some q3 mods for ql. Where's ra3, including arenas and rover arena, defrag, cpm, holy wars, etc.

Someone hire this guy.

Snap. Everyone plus!

this hasnt happened in 3 years, do you see a chance?

Doesn't matter that YOU don't, might as well say you tried :)

Honestly, given sync/id's track record, I fully expect it to fall on deaf ears. They've proven their pigheadedness by continuing to stick with a failing system for this long, while ignoring both the community and common sense. You'd think a project bleeding money would be a big enough motivator to change some things up, but apparently not. They just dont care and there's nothing we can do about it.

So yeah, I only posted it for the +'s :>

Still, it truly is a shame to see a great skill based game (a rarity nowadays) perish because of some corporate bullshit. And before anyone says that there is no demand for skill based games in today's dumbed down gaming world... that's a fucking lie. Street Fighter (and 2d fighters in general) were dead as fuck from 2001-2008 everywhere except Japan. Starcraft was dead everywhere except Korea. Then their respective companies decided to take a chance and make worthy sequels and the games' popularity blew up worldwide.

QL had the same potential. Sure it wouldn't receive as much exposure as say Quake 5 release would, but if it was fixed up and promoted well, it could still attract the fairly large segment of gamers who want to play a game that rewards the better player and not randomness. This is exactly what drew me to Quake in the first place. And it's not like there is a lot of competition for skill-based fps's. There's 1.6 but it's very very different, and imo Quake is way more fun to both watch and be good at.

I really dont know what id are trying to do, but the decisions they've made after the 90s ended do not inspire much confidence.

you got them plusses right, shows how desperately people still crave for those things, shows its never too late for this game ; >

noone is playing the premium maps as it is. If you were paying attention you'd know that.

I am glad there are many new maps in QL and that there is more to come however in the two gametypes I play on QL, FFA and CA, it is very rare that I play these premium maps because there are never any premium servers being used. In pub play premium is just simply not touched. I think that this is the most common complaint with the current subscription system.

If you cast your mind back to last years whine, the whine was overwhelmingly about the lack of maps. You have addressed this but unfortunatley due to what I have said above the new maps are just not played outside of organised competitions! Therefore I think you should reconsider the current premium maps system.

Maybe a good idea to get the maps you have added played more on pubs is to introduce a system where each premium/pro player on a server has a (P) next to their nickname which shows that they have a subscription, when a certain percentage of premium players on a server is reached, say 60%, premium maps enter the rotation and become available to vote. Also when looking at the servers in the browser you are able to see the current percentage split and see whether you should join or not etc. Also, please introduce a vote that allows the server to change the gametype to freeze tag/insta freeze if the threshold (60%) is reached or preferably make FT & iFT free as it should've been in the first place.

I know this has been suggested dozens of times and I just can't understand why it isn't added, because atm it aint working out!

Thanks for your efforts!

This is more or less the idea that I was trying to convey. It really would solve all of the problems.

I would seriously consider contributing, if this was possible.

I think it is, find something that can be site improved and that you can do:

Try wolfcamming some content, and then either describing it in writing or audio style so it can be discussed and presented on quake site.

If you understand JavaScript try playing with grease monkey about upgrading or updating the visual interface of quakelives site with some graph, or toggling div, etc.

More things done by us, more pressure on them to either implement it, or to argument as to why they are refusing to implement, not doing it themselves yet. Including more and more people, providing an example of company treating it's base community a certain way, and making people wonder why? :)

I think you are forgetting that QuakeLive is a business, not a community project. People who are enthusiastic about improving the game aren't going to buy any more accounts than they already have. GreaseMonkey scripts aren't going to "put any pressure" on anyone. The only thing that would make it possible for people to directly contribute to their project, is if they feel they will spend less resources on SDK/APIs/legal than they will get back from this. Depending on how the project is structured, and considering they have just a few people, it's probably not possible.

Yes it won't however, a lot of people asking, have they seen this script or that script. People showing off scripts that change site features into things that would be of some importance would make some noise as to why do they have to install scripts when all of that tech can be readily implemented on the web frontend part of the project.
The scripts are either open source or made public domain so don't see any legal issues there, unless they really HAVE to pay you, but then again, you can really charge them a cent for it.

would make some noise as to why do they have to install scripts

And, whats the consequence of such 'noise'? Someone who knows of the existence of such noise has already made up their mind or is actually more likely to be a customer then to decide not to be.

Yes they decided to be consumers. They are deciding what product they are consuming, hence if you start showing what the product should be rather then is, it will be easier to emulate by id best practices and code coming from those scripts and the community. Not just emulate but integrate.

Now hard would it be for them to for instance qpply that elo rank showing script now, site wide? Instead of it being done client side, like it is.

Also how much would it take for newer people to notice custom scripts and custom div on site that can be toggled comparing two duelers and their past matches? Asking id where is that implemented on their site.
Product development is done by demand as it seems. So as far as the pure site side is concerned, anyone who knows JS can steer them in the right direction.

Fix the purchase pro page, I can't get on it and I can't buy pro! Its been like this for two weeks :P

add cpm3a and q3amphi plz

amphi plz

oh yes amphi

Id should just shut down quake live, so everyone can go back to Q3, and have the community run the game.

^^ this

yeah it was working so well prior to QL. hint: NOT.

no paypal =\\

quake live needs an API to enable 3rd party developments and some kind of 'extension/addon' concept for the site and ingame. quake was always community driven, it could be saved again that way.

this. Imagine what q3 would have been without osp/ra3/cpma/defrag :x

@SyncError|home • Hiring people costs money, and we're not making enough money to justify new hires on the project.
zoot_ • so you got someone doing it for free?
@SyncError|home • Correct

Who is this hero of a programmer and how can I buy him a coffee?

q3 was dead or dying, ql is the best thing that ever happened regardless of current situation! So many people came back and tens of thousands of newbs pass through or stick around, something that would never happen back in q3.

My biggest wish part from the already obvious mentioned ladders, gtv, anticheat and such would be to NOT split up the community with 'premium' maps vs 'standard' maps. I'm a pro account owner and I think everyone should be able to play with everyone, free or paying costumer. Make us pay for starting servers, managing clans, whatever else but don't make us pay for maps so everyone can actually play on all servers with all maps.

Thanks! :)

Exactly my thought. Look at FT, it couldve been popular and populated 24/7 from the start if they didnt make it premium only, it's the kind of gamemode that really does attract the masses and makes them stick to the game for a while.

True, while I'm certain they too know that. Since freezetag is only played when on action for free servers, and in that week or weekend that it was avail to everyone. DOn't really get it as to why's that, only things that comes to mind is that they must've cashed out for it certain sum of money, and now expect a return on it making it a payable option.

On the other hand, i can even understand why they are keeping it this way. If you think about it, any casual player really needs an incentive to start paying to play, so if he has fun in clanarena, a little pub ctf, FFA, and a little pub duel AND he sees that FT is soo much more relaxed and fun with pushing frozen blocks of players around then he might actually get out his card and pay to play FT as a special option.

What puzzles me tho, is that they don't PR it at all? Have everyone playing FT for free for 12 days a month, then kill it for free accounts, you'd see all the whine, while more and more people liking this mod would start paying for it, and for premium maps.

Quake is addictive, one weekend isn't really gonna produce shit, until people get used to having something only for that to be taken away. The they either wait it out, or they pay and endorse the things they like.

And all we come down to is that one guy who is missing and sorely needed in that position of PR/community management. Thinking abouthow to turn quakelive into profit, making moves like getting people active about a cause, or gamemode, or tournament, or a map.

GTV would be ok for ingame advertisement plans, but i think it would require a separate client which should be developed an rewritten for QL from scratch. So not any time soon. Streams tho could be more indorsed by quakelive.
Making official stream teams that would push around content for everyone to see, advertising the game itself.

Agreed

is funny that this is probably more a wish of the paying customers than the free ones

we pay for prem maps, but there are no ppl to play with

This! They already lose money, I don't see what harm this can do to them... it will actually help a little. We pay, because we want to support the game, not because we can play aero(after all, everyone knows atleast one pro player, who can invite him).

yup... game content should be avail to everyone...

additional stuff, like pr0 scoreboards, server spawning etc - thats what u should pay for...

Skins and better sounds for pro and prem.. :) Although this might make it too easy for Pro and Prem to smash new users...

hi chiter

what!?

who's chiter?

i was referring to the fact that any gameplay improvements like different skins for premium accounts is a form of legalized "cheating" or unfair advantage.

agreed

yesyesyes.

yeah, but syncerror is too stupid to do that...

freezetag 24/7 on the edge

The other option is for the server to automatically switch to being a premium one when over 60% of players on there are premium. The standard players on the server can tag along as well but as soon as they leave the server they cannot rejoin. This solves everything. Premium players would find each other on the pubs and the maps would get played in every game type. Its time to implement this asap.

Players with premium have a (P) next to their names in the browser and scoreboard.

this is actually a FANTASTIC idea. like many other ones others have had. unfortunately no one who will be able to make this happen, cares to, or can't, or is being told not to, who knows for sure. we all have a little information and best guesses as to why.

terrible, terrible idea. good from competition stand-point, extremely bad from money and how much longer ql will stay up point

how can it be bad for keeping people around. More people will stick around to play those maps no? or are you thinking in terms of the fact that the premium players/q3 hardcore veterans will demolish the standard users with the 1 year + of experience minimum on those maps which essentially repeats what we've seen in the past 2 years, with noobs quitting this game cuz its' too hard? cuz i would agree with that.

you are terrible at reading between the lines despite trying to do this 24/7 on esr. What I meant is less players will feel motivated to buy prem if maps aren't prem only

less players would feel motivated to buy premium? the only thing that motivates people to buy premium is so they can play the new maps. Whether or not a premium sub even exists doesn't matter so long as those maps are available to everyone , which essentially keeps the remaining playerbase together, isntead of split up. So yes its' a good idea, to make it free to everyone with the only cost going towards pro users interested in setting up their own servers, etc

for fucks sake, plenty of people buy prem to play prem maps to participate in duel tournies, or thats how it was when there were a ton of streams from major tournaments showing rapha cooller cypher fighting it out. U even admitted that in your first sentence and proceeded to talk about nothing. if you want prem maps to become free maps expect to see ql dying faster. do i have to explain the logic of last sentence step by step so a 15 year old like you can understand?

You're in dreamland if you think continuing to split the community helps this game. Making the maps free for all, keeps people around playing together. At this point. player retention is priority and the means to enable it should be utilzed to the fullest.

also: i'm probably 30 years older than you.... kid

be even 50 years older, your priorities are fucked up
even if 2 of your total count of 3 friends quit ql doesn't bring profit and you want it to bring even less of a profit, but who am I trying to convey logic to rotfl stop wasting my air

for fuck sake, i never understood why they decided to split the playerbase

couple scenarios

1) they needed the money to pay the remaining developers after cutbacks
2) they truly weren't paying attention to the community and did not realize that scenario NOR did they care if such a scenario played out.

This seems to have occured due to a lack of research or care since we have all agreed that a split playerbase would reduce the population of the game and this was voiced before subscriptions were even announced in slasher's spoilers' thread, so there's no way someone at id or close to id didn't read that thread and voice those concerns to sync. Only question remains, whose decision was it to make the subscription model? marty? todd? sync? pete hines? carmack himself? this is what needs to be answered.

They didn't just drop the ball, i believe it was deliberate at this point. There's no way a subscription model could have ever done anything but cause 1/3 of the users to ragequit the game instantly. Even a caveman could have predicted that.

i always kinda expected that they would start charging, either a one time fee or a monthly/annual type of deal, but i never actually expected them to make people pay for new maps

shit is ridiculous

Been requested a million times! :\

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2152367#pid2152367

Ok, apparently, this is the guy currently IN charge (head) of pr and marketing for bethesda
(http://gamesauce.org/news/2010/10/19/bethesda...ity-sells/

so that's the guy to contact

but you should be warned

“I kind of tend to err on the side of providing information and letting everybody else draw their own opinions and conclusions.”

lol

Im waiting for the final update:
QL has shut down. Visit http://promode.org/ for some quake action

hold tight m8, it might take few years

meanwhile, I hope u don’t mind us playing ql

cpma hasn't been updated in over a year and from what i know there is no one developing it at the moment?

works pretty good afaik:)

qw works pretty well too, so? :p
i actually like most of the stuff they did with ql and i wouldn't want to go back, especially not to the xerp+laghax times. that sucked :(

you missed the "afaik:)" part:p

ql is using xerp too. Its just not called xerp but its still an extrapolation method but its worse than xerp.

so you prefer a worse xerp version from ql and -20 timenudge + a lot of warping players???

You have got to be kidding us or you never played cpma properly to get an impression of xerp.

Oh ye right, ID developed ql to suit noobs...

btw cpma developer doesnt release a "color update" just to say: we've release a BIG update again! Cpma doesnt release custom maps and call it an update (it would have been called mappack update).
Cpma releases updates when its actually an update (!!!) but since cpma got everything its finished.

what? i played more cpma than you played quake, i take a bet on that.
what i didn't like was the very special way the models would "warp"/ "jitter" (even without lag and during timeouts) with xerp+laghax, something arqon said he could fix some time in the future... you know how this ended.

i bet there are still less warping players than in ql!

no, everyone warps/jitters like fuck with xerp, it's a widely known bug. as i said, arqon originally wanted to fix this.

the player isnt actually warping, xerp lets the client side predict where the model actually is. if they have > 20 ping, the model will appear to "stutter" due to it predicting the various places the model will go

yea, that's what i meant. i found it to be very unpleasent and the ql netcode to be superior for that alone.

Don't hold your breath.

really wish id would pay attention to what people here are saying.

so much sense being made.

frustrating to see all these great ideas wasted on a fucking map which no one gives a shit about atm.

sigh

syncerror might be, but we need the guys at bethesda to see this thread and others like it once and for all. Only they have the power to remove syncerror from his postion and put someone in charge who can actually follow through on these things. That is, unless they truly want this game to die...

Word of advice, I would be careful with your endless persuit to slander Syncerror off, you are bordering on illegal..

We are questioning syncerror's position as community manager thanks to what chubz has provided with those irc logs of others asking sync questions on irc.

Dude, you seem to miss the point of this thread, it's about updates? Your last post was interfering in someones working life, and saying for his employer to remove him. That is what you put. Now thats just down right malicious, unfreindly, and nasty.

So is being harassed by 2 of his friends (incubus) for 6 months and him donig nothing about it, instead allowing him an unlimited number of accounts to slum and harass even more players. I have supplied evidence of that. You're totally unaware kid. Also, you don't get to decide which way a topic goes in a thread on this site. Chubz wanted to post that information about those questions from irc. We're responding to it. Go cry to him.
Also,based on your rationale, everyone who beileves obama should be removed from office is nasty too. People want a change in government and many of us want a change in this game as well, to give it a future. If you like the way things are going, then by all means, don't change anything.

IMO Obama is different, the people are his employer and that is a voting thing. Completely different to someone earing a crust though a private organisation.

obama is the democratically elected president of the united states, syncerror an employee at a north american software firm. two entirely different things.
what you are doing on the other hand could get aswell get you in trouble for slander, if anyone cares that much, which i sincerely doubt :p

have you seen what jameiro and jamalz wrote about him? or half of this entire forum? you're pinpointing me. At least i'm not doing anything but speaking the obvious; that he's not listening to the community. Chubz here however is trying to change that.

Slander in the US is a very tough case to make, and requires direct proof of damage. I wish it wasn't the case, and that the story was true about ray going to jail for it.

You mean the way you've labeled all of id incompetent? You should get life for that.

Get a life?

how was jail, ray?