I've always preferred duel and still do, but that's just me. I'm also a cooller fanboy and love cheering for him at the big LANs, if he isn't attending my interest is significantly lowered. I was about to flip a shit when they nearly disqualified him. Not ashamed to admit it! :P

Duel is easier to stream and there are probably ways to improve TDM coverage, but the most important point about keeping a team game at the heart of Quake is about building the community, that keeps people playing and will eventually feed the duel pool.

I think that while duel should be the highlight event, it should be supported by the team events and the more fun side in FFA.

I'm not sure how coverage of TDM could be improved. The casting was fine (more humour and bs talk during dead time wouldn't go a miss, 2gd excels at this).

Maybe it's just because of the new teams, I have no particular emotions for any of them, nor did I have any expectations.

Back in the day when TDM was active, it was all about the big teams like IC and forZe etc, I couldn't wait to watch them play.

free-flight in the quad rooms could improve it... e.g. the map where you can take a jumppad up to quad...you could have a top-down view of the room to see how the first team sets up to defend it

I would love to be able to bind fixed camera locations to switch to to watch quad setups.

the map where you can take a jump pad to quad? uh...

dreadful place? deep inside? grim dungeons? intervention?

haha good point
i was on about this map http://www.justin.tv/dreamhackql/b/288405478

but the point stands for most maps i guess unless the roof blocks the view

yea, I figured you meant dreadful place, given how much of the dreamhack coverage was centered around that map and specifically its quad attack/defense. it seems to be a bit unique in that regard. ospdm5 is pretty similar, but ospdm6 and dm14 aren't nearly as open for attack/quad stealing in the same way.

I mean the game options for view points, stats and such.

Thinking about it, I would probably prefer to watch tdm from one point of view for 90% of the game (minus quad runs), rather than switching between different players for 20mins.

Watching Noctis, Linkje or Tox own for 20mins would certainly be more entertaining.

problem is: they don't usually own for 20 minutes.

No, but it would mean a lot more when they do. You would also get a feel for the strategy involving said player.

have no particular emotions for any of them, nor did I have any expectations.

That's really your own fault, because I assume you didn't follow the scene.

To me it was:

cowln: omg, sick line-up, but will they work as a team?
reason: oldschool TDMers fazz+deus, combined with reigning 2v2 champions noctis and zyv -- can somebody stop them?
metsu: great online performance, can they live up to them?
ufx: obviously interesting. only little practice, but sick line-up. Representing the US in an all Euro competion.
russia: rather weak online performances, but maybe awesome on LAN? also: cooller, jibo, mikes,evil. what's not to love?
4K: How well will they play with their new line-up?
srs: seemed to be rather underestimated, will they prove everybody wrong?
dignitas: dark horse playing without pressure and possibly surprising some "established" teams
TA: unstable performances, can they step up their game when it counts?

Yep, it's very much a personal feeling, but one I think is probably felt by most non QL tdm followers.

Of course you can't be excited about teams that you don't follow because you don't care about them. What's your point? That you didn't care about TDM because you don't care about TDM?

I know the players and the teams, and I watched the online tourney before.

My point is to new spectators, it probably looks boring.

LoL and SC2 look boring to new spectators.

What did you prefer watching? duel or tdm? I'm guessing tdm as that's what you cast.. What about nvc?

I completely disagree with everything you've written.

me too, except the Tony thing.

trance mentioned in irc something that he thinks about stomping duel for tdm entirely, i'm not quite sure if he meant the price money, the next lans, next dreamhack, or the whole coverage.

i would love to keep all three directions (tdm,duel,ffa) equally supported, but thats a huge deal pricewise, logistic, and thousand other things i can't come up with right now. and since quake is going more or less downwards at the moment, ....

anyway, i guess with switching between duel and tdm we're really getting to some essential point for the future of quake, which my magical abilities can't predict right now.

trance mentioned in irc something that he thinks about stomping duel for tdm entirely, i'm not quite sure if he meant the price money, the next lans, next dreamhack, or the whole coverage.

Then quake is dead for me :(

+1

lol he is like trying to kill ql

but I am sure he doesn't understand it and he has good intestions, but ultimately that is what he does.

i enjoyed tdm a lot more than duel and actually preferred it when it was on at the same time even for the finals.. we had enough duels.. reason, srs, colwn, russian games were all entertaining, stacked teams with big/oldschool names and awesome moments.. it was something fresh and unseen for a long time

both TDM and duel were great and I'd love to see both in every DH from now on. Big thanks to the lvlup team for their coverage, thought it was fantastic and long may it continue.

tdm was pretty fucking boring. no comebacks, no tension, was fun watching tox rape with shaft but you can only watch that for so long.

lolwat? no tension?

go watch Reason vs russia on dm14 or metsu vs srs on dreadful place or colwn vs russia on dm20 or Reason vs colwn on cpm4, ...

must've watched a different tourney because all games I've seen was 1 team taking 20,30 - 100 lead(clown) and keeping it.

It's even worse when there's a decent lead within 5minutes, you just know it's over already.

you've seen the wrong games then. See the ones I mentioned above.

i thought there was a lot of good tdm matches.

wasnt as interested in 1v1 and neither were the players. the reason you may have liked 1v1 more is probably linked to this...if people dont care as much theyre likely to rush more. rapha-cypher on dm13 was like 9-7? if this was a 1v1 only event that'd probs be 3-1.

i agree with the tony thing. not that hes to blame for it or anything but its burnt out now.

I'd be ok with a system like this:
DHS: TDM only
DHW: 1v1 only
QCON: CTF & 1v1

I've only seen TDM and not a single duel and I don't feel I have missed anything.

Duel may be more ... (insert something), but after seeing the same players vs the same players for the 100th time in a row it doesn't excite me like it did maybe a year or more ago.

Need GTV for TDM, or some improvements to the QL spec client.

yeah, this. gtv (or: the ability to freely choose the pov) is really the only option to properly follow a tdm match.

Both tourneys where great, but duel wins in my book.
Most likely another tdm event like this wont have as many teams though.

I'd actually prefer having only 8 teams (let's say out of cowln, reason, metsu, srs, russia, ufx, dignitas, 4kings, TA) and Bo5 double-elimination brackets over what we saw at DreamHack.

edit: Or inviting 8 teams and make a qualifier for 2-4 additional spots so that there's a decent incentive for other teams.

well it sounds good, but every team attending will be hard.

Why? It worked for DH even though the prize pool wasn't shockingly high and only few teams had players participating in duel.

TDM differs from duel that you have to form a 4 people team.
Let's give some players chance to play with top clans on the lan, maybe next year one player from low seed will be playing for high seed clan and bring flesh blood to tournaments.

Of course, when we will have stable community, one elite tournament with only best teams with double-elim bo5 would be great!

it was indeed a bit sad to see that a lot of the matches werent really close, the current ec had a lot more nail biter matches already
edit: the score difference comparison between dhs/online/ec xxiii that i posted confirms this

Maybe it's just because of the new teams, I have no particular emotions for any of them, nor did I have any expectations.

well that already takes away a lot in terms of enjoyment, but its simply a matter of being aware about the teams/players and if you havent followed the tdm scene so far then where should it come from? its just a matter of time

You can say in hindsight that the seeding was pretty terrible. Having the winner and 3rd place finisher together with a team that could easily finish 4th in the same group. Metsu not living up to their potential ( which was sort of predictable with their lack of lan experience). The russians allready meeting colwin in the quarter finals, eventhough they were easily top3 contenders.

There were all sorts of different and potentially close games that didn't happen for one reason or another, which is sad because these sort of tdm lans don't come around very often.

A (bo1?) loser bracket and/or better seedings should be a priority next time

"cu on lan" x)

I kinda agree with everything you've written. I also think that the main reason I dislike spectating TDM is that there are almost no comebacks.

In duel you fairly often see the tailing guy make a comeback of 5-10 frags and then win the game in a score like 12-10, making the series of comeback frags count for far more than half of the ending score. I felt that in TDM you knew who the winner would be after the first 5 mins. The team leading would 9 out of 10 times also be the winner. There were no real comebacks and therefore no excitement like I feel duel offer.

Anyways that's just me.

CTF

All the excitement of team games with spectator-friendly gameplay.

The best spectator experience I had in any quake game was during the "golden era" of Q3 CTF with the CB eurocups, quakecon, etc.

this

I think you may be right, hopefully QCon will provide such an event.

all the excitement of quakecon? yea I really loved those 0-0 overtimes on troubled waters...hope they have a more exciting map list this time

Fuck. No.

lol@you and non-cpmctf.
Most boring shit I can imagine.

vq3 ctf is so fucking boring please no more ctf tournaments

spectator HUD need :

bigger orbiltal messages,

smaller lower bar with HEALTH /ARMOR/PLAYER NAME ETC

a visible teamoverlay

and a lot more

also, bigger cg_drawfriends.

"orbiltal"

wtf i dont even.

I think maybe he meants obituary or something.

I really really liked it. I realized I had missed the Duel Finals at the end of the TDM-Semis. Or was it the quarters? Dunno.

i was more into the tdm tourney cos it was new and interesting. duel has become pretty stale. same people over and over. i wish theyd change the mappool to remove all the old maps so the scene can get a little more interesting perhaps. sick of watching aero and ztn and dm13.

I hardly watched nor cared for the duel tourney, imo tdm is much better to watch, but ye when czm, cl0ck casted they had follow killer which sucked, esp on maps like dm20

Unless the teams are even, TDM is incredibly boring to watch.

Duel is the only mode I enjoy watching. And this particular event was overshadowed by the poor TDM.

If TDM is to be featured again, it should be used as a warm-up for the duel tournament which should be the main event.

duel tourney should be a warmup for the ctf main event.

come onnnnnnn lol ql duel is pure shit, only backstabing, too many items to time wich make the game so slow (no battle, only ppl who are going RA -> MH -> GA -> YA ... xD)

when tdm is great action, i've seen silencep (smt like that?) destroying 5-6 ppl in a row with incredible moves (plasma jump + quad) :D ! or winz with his incredible aim pwing everyone. Indeed there were some boring tdm matchs (ppl hiding or or being raped) but there are same kind of match in duel...even more.

(i don't really play ql but tdm leads me to play it (play(ed) some real games like quakeword and unreal tournament ;)))

so i'd say +1 for tdm :))

i would say you should watch ffa

You still have to use your brain in tdm...

here we go. split = ql death
but comm is shit anyway

how is this the death of ql? look at how much activity tdm brought back. as stermy said in one of the interviews, team modes are better than when it comes to keep people motivated and playing quake

And stermy dropped out of the duel tournament while saying it, which is the answer to your question =)

Maybe people can actually practice perfectly both for duel and TDM, I don't really know that. Just saw some people dropping out, and others saying that they play duel only for fun at this DH.

and tox will play duel at quakecon because he started with tdm again

While I love duel I was looking forward to watch TDM for the first time after all the hype.

I was dissapoint.

I am pretty new to quake having played high level Battlefield1942 for 6+ years (Team game played 10vs10 or 8vs8 or as infantry only 4vs4).

Having never played the maps it was extremly confusing to watch and the tactical and strategical seemed to be very limited (yes I understand that quake is mainly about execution than strategy).

Quake should stick to duel for tournaments, its the only place in the market thats really open for it. Team games has advanced and other games are a lot more interesting in that area.

Having never played the maps it was extremly confusing to watch

kinda have to agree on this cause thats how i experienced tdm aswell when i didnt play it and didnt know anything about it. but thats only an point in regards of (non familiar) spectator friendliness and cannot be used to judge the gamemode.

Same for new duel maps, not really interesting to watch when you don't know the maps.

I'd rather see a bo3 on dm14 or some other quality map so tactical differences/changes stand out more and one can see how team play is adjusted (remember some qw tourney where they played 10 games on dm3, EU vs US or something).

Beside that without multiview gtv ql can go to hell.

it can be used however to judge tdm spectator value for future tourneys. which is very low.

it can be used however to judge tdm spectator value for future tourneys.

yes

which is very low.

no, an oversimplification like that is simply wrong.
you have to consider the audience and how different groups in that audience experience the different modes. and if you do that keeping in mind how big those groups are then you will get a different answer than yours

oh yea, you're right. 2% of the people who actually play tdm might have fun. my bad.

yeah right, no comparison to the vibrant ctf community
or are you arguing that ctf would be interesting to everyone while tdm is just interesting to everyone who plays it? maybe just explain your point than instead

community has nothing to do with it. ctf is simply a more attractive and spectator friendly platform. the reason is a specific goal around which the gameplay is oriented and this makes it easy to understand and follow effectively. also the goal is not linear like in tdm and allows for more suspense and upsets up to the very end.

for example take the ctf games at quakecon... real nailbiters, tons of upsets, crazy runs and last minute turnarounds. compare that with dh tdm where you knew the outcome 5 mins into the game and the other 15 was just boring cess.

now thats what people are almost mindlessly repeating, but is it true?

the goal of tdm is to make more frags, thats also a very simple concept.
ctf has a lot of mid cess and is downright boring for minutes, for everyone who doesnt understand the finer details of ctf play, until a flagrun happens. for someone like me who has never played ctf it is as inaccessable and hard to enjoy as tdm was before i got into it.

mindlessly repeating? I gave you the exact reasons but you obviously can't read. the goal in tdm is simple but it's also linear - dmg over time. this makes for poor spectator value. how many times have you seen teams make up 30-40 frags difference? I haven't seen one game in dh where a team overturned such lead. not one.

not to mention its hard to focus casting in tdm because roles are not so clearly cut, there are no bases, no specific defense/offense positions etc, any team member can be a carrier, every team member can go for quad runs and do different roles as necessary.

how many times have you seen teams make up 30-40 frags difference? I haven't seen one game in dh where a team overturned such lead. not one.

well 40 frags is a lot and unless you still have 6-8 mins left its going to be tough. (but thats like saying you dont often see a comeback when one team leads 5:0 in a ctf game) but that does not mean that comebacks dont happen or that tdm is completely linear. i mean there are phases of map control and then there are the powerups that add a lot of structure and devide the game into segments

not to mention its hard to focus casting in tdm because roles are not so clearly cut, there are no bases, no specific defense/offense positions etc, any team member can be a carrier, every team member can go for quad runs and do different roles as necessary.

well roles and specific positions are usually temporary (not always, see v3rb on deep inside for example) in tdm but that doesnt mean they dont exist. and you can usually make out a different style between the players. silencep is not going to play like tox. maybe your understanding of tdm is a bit shallow.

and it works both ways, in tdm you get to see fights that matter all the time while in ctf you can completely miss half of a capture because you are on the wrong person or just see mid cess that doesnt lead to anything.

granted my understanding of tdm is pretty shit since I don't play it. I don't play ctf either but I can still enjoy ctf much more than tdm. go figure.

as for your point that in tdm you see important fights, that's just silly. no fight is really crucial in tdm, it's not as if you miss that rail the opponent will cap and win the game. hell not even the quad is that important. watched some games where one team had like all the quads and still lost. also why would you watch mid cess in ctf? you watch runners duh.

granted my understanding of tdm is pretty shit since I don't play it. I don't play ctf either but I can still enjoy ctf much more than tdm. go figure.

i started with tdm just half a year ago and before that i enjoyed neither ctf nor tdm, go figure
hint: its personal preference

only being able to watch/enjoy runners is real downside in my eyes btw

it's up to casters to follow and switch to other players but at least you always have a clear point of reference to see where the action is. also autoswitch to carrier helps in this regard.

There kind of are "bases" in TDM, as well as specific zones for a teams offensive and defensive actions to be concentrated in, but it's very fluid. Obviously in CTF the static position of the flags means it is more clear cut where these areas are. For a stream it's down to the casters to try and make this clear, which on levelup we try our best to do and are improving over time I believe.

I don't honestly think CTF is better spectator wise, it has all the same problems that TDM does due to the limited viewing options the game provides. It's simply what each individual prefers to watch. In TDM it takes a lot of work switching to keep track of what both teams are either doing or planning to do, and it's easy to be on the wrong pov as there's no overview of who is best equipped to do something. In CTF there are so many bugs with pov switching that often a flag pickup doesn't even cause the pov to switch to the carrier, this happens so often it's unbelievable. There is the same problem with lack of player overview too, which attacker is best to watch at a given time, what do you do when both flags are being held, should we ever watch a defender or someone playing mid etc. etc.

I think with changes to the spectating options both game types will be great to watch and we'll see plenty of coverage for both, I hope.

look at it this way. if they changed time limit to 10, the outcome of how many games from dreamhack would be affected?

oh, would it change a lot of CTF results?

yes

I will not that some people only want close games, nice quad runs and no rape. Thus next time you should invite teams that are extremely similar in skill - similar to duel, right?)

It is TDM damnit. Comebacks are really hard on some of the new maps (especially dm20).

Duel finals was epic exhibition of how entertaining ql can be.

How to make tdm more spectator friendly?

The easiest way is to make powerups appear every 90secs and adding their effectivity. It would make game mostly about controlling big powerups instead of some weapon and armor control which usually just makes games slow as shit... Now its easily possible to win a game even without one quad / bs, which is just bs..

One possiblity would be also adding 5-10 score bonus for quad / bs pickup

CPM/QW TDM >>>> vq3/QL TDM
Actual back and forth games are possible and not rare.

And the casting wasn't good. Not much analysis of the map quirks or team tactics.

Thing is in qw/cpm uneven match games become even more rapey, but yes close matched teams can make come backs etc

TBH i didnt see that many rape games, alot of matches went to 3 maps, you need things like this to get people into playing TDM again, more teams = more even matches

In QW/CPM a switch of map/position control can easily get you up to 50 frags, which makes for exciting matches even with such differences in scores. Also, total rape is kinda interesting to watch as well.
(I agree with you.)

BLASPHEMY!

dont put vq3 in the same basket with ql... its so much more above ql.

216.12.96.39:27960 fuck tdm.. CTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTFCTF CTF

to answer ur questions why it didnt live up to your expectations:

1)lack of gtv/mvd
2)yep it sucks when theres no gtv.. get used to pov switching :D
3)games were awesome, but then again I understand its difficult to follow 8 different povs instead of ur fav player..
4)at this state, I agree

different gametypes please. Something original. Thanks.

duel
ctf
tdm

GTV GTV GTV GTV GTV GTV GTV GTV GTV GTV GTV GTV GTV GTV GTV GTV

Indeed, QL cannot be taken seriously without GTV.

gtv is stupid.


streaming is the future now. soon i hope 1080p becomes the standard streaming service.

BS. If gaming had any kind of real audience, companies would be complete idiots to use streaming video. It's a simple cost issue. How much does it take, per-person, to use full 1080p GTV? 10K/sec? What about streaming video? 1.2M/sec? Multiply that by 3 million and the choice is obvious.

wont look as good.

as delayed streamed 1080p


now this becomes about cost? you new age fgts only think about money. the government sure has corrupted this generation. u r the new generation slave.

seriously it should be possible to make an addition to the spec hud with both teams' overlays and numbered players bound to numpad by default in less than 10 minutes, would make it so much better for casters and spectators both. instantly see who on which team is in a position to do something and switch to them

TL 15min for TDM would be prefered by me :)

stick to watching duel

I will.

Anyway, why do you think TL15 is a bad idea?

Didn't care at all about TDM, tuned in to watch some games and mostly just kept stream open and muted while doing other things.

I love team games, I tend to spec ET, COD4, even some CS1.6, but damn TDM is zzz.