i remember vaguely that we have discussed it before. id be up for it though. additionally, maybe slight hitbox increase and a new "faster" ql is born. :)

10 % increase of hit-boxes in focus, im happy if it goes official :)

they ban people for telling these things :(

I agree.

Time to ban slasher again.

Time to get half the people here to shut the fuck up and get as stoned as Slasher. That method of making these forums bearable is way overdue.

hell no.

People enjoy having guys like you and jamerio around for entertainment.

Yeah, because they don't get any other form of trivial amusement in their sad, lonely lives. ESR's new tagline should be "FOREVER ALONE"

well, I suppose everyone has his own reason to go to ESR.

If that is yours, I won't judge you ;)

So, based on that comment, you're judging me then? You, of all people? Silly superficial, hypocritical German ubernerds and their yodeling...

10% sound reasonable. Hope they release it for public test.

i hope you are kidding about the hitbox increase.

also footsteps removing could be a subrscriber option.

!!! CAUTION !!!Gravedigger detected!!! CAUTION !!!

Shhh D:

Don't do it.

Anyone have a rough idea of when the new update is coming out?

March 15th

It will lead to people sneaking around a little bit faster and still not +forward. You know damn well where's the problem.

Where is the problem?

he thinks we need cpm movement

And he is right :D

partly shitty monitors where the result of passive play as well. give them 120hz 2ms tfts and we are going to see some aggressive moves again.

i had no idea they used shit monitors, that's horrible :(

The monitors at the world finals were the same as the ones in NYC..they are 75hz and they work very well imo. Using "shitty monitors" as an excuse to play passive doesn't make sense because of that.

The only players who whine about "shitty monitors" are euros anyway :PPPPPPPPPP

because the euros can aim :PPPPPPPPPP

tbh i dont think that changes the fact that gameplay embraces defensive playstyle.

Pretty much this.... in q3 you have the option to play slow/passive/defensive or aggressive. Now in ql if you play +forward vs someone around your level you will most likely lose. All players that played aggressive at early ql days now migrate to more caution/def style (strenx,dahang,cypher,etc.).

A lot of talk about the boring games last weekend. I think bringing PK back will result in more action, and not as many shitty 10-minute games where everybody spams and peekrails each other the whole time because the game is so fucking bad.

Discuss.

this^

Why not bring the real game PK tries to be, the manly game: QW

Going to have to agree with you here actually...

[+] for courage too

Courage? You say that like I should be scared of these Euro shut-ins that frequent this board and live 5000 miles away. :P

Oh ya how could I forget :P

wrong forum section

can only repeat myself: this is the kind of thing that deserves to be a ql devpick, the issue has been discussed often enough but it has never actually been tried out in vq3 setting (afaik).

exactly we don't need to test flying spaceship mode.

Tbh, they are right in using devpicks for no-gravity-insta-ctf-jetpack-atomic-spaceship-godmode-CA, because that's what many if not most casual players want (excessive+ anyone?).
If they used them to test this kind of subtle tweaks (well, ok, no footsteps isn't really a small change, but it's still a masterpiece of subtlety compared to the ridiculous shit that's on devpicks servers usually), most of the "hadcore" community they'd be aimed at wouldn't give a shit anyway, and even if they did, what kind of feedback do you think id would get?
Would you post your impressions on that cesspool of a forum amidst all the inarticulate whine and terrible trolling? Do you think ql devs even try to read that forum?

Totally agree.

cpm

You'd probably see the same amount of +backing though, if both don't want to commit they won't.

I think we saw those kind of scores (0-0) because those maps have been so overplayed, there's definitely less chance for surprises as opposed to using newer maps. If we used new maps, I seriously doubt we would have 0-0 scores on them.

Also I think the games were really nice, regardless of score. I love watching Agent vs Cooller play ztn and go into OT with 0-0. It's really nice play, and I think the factor of score should only dictate the winner. Who cares if it's 0-0 or 1-1? If it's exciting, it's exciting.

I'm not opposed to this, but I rather keep it the way it is now. The game already allows for sloppy play as opposed to VQ3, so I don't think we need to add another variable that rewards dumb play/sloppiness.

Basically, I don't think removing footsteps would solve the issue. It won't end with stuff like this. Oh, now that we have removed footsteps, we want instant weapon switch, so the game is faster. Now we want air control so the game is faster, etc etc. Not saying you're trying to turn this game into CPM, but I'm sure you understand. "Nothing is ever good enough" ideology.

10 years of CPMAish dm6 haven't made it even close to what we could see.
Rapha Cypher dm13 wasn't entertaining at all, it felt like they're too scared to look over a corner. Same for avek cooller etc etc

I guess it's the thing that most vq3ers wanted so badly, punishing for mistakes.

You're right. The things that would fix this are the things some players on here would complain about. Fast movement/ fast weapon which would be too "forgiving" and this is of course the logical conclusion of gameplay that is built around punishing for positioning/weapon selection mistakes.

This is what it looks like when you can't make a single mistake without it costing you the game.
Are you not entertained?

You have to consider there even are people who watch chess, where it can take minutes until any movement at all. And you need that time, exactly because it is so very easy to make a mistake that loses a game.

So, when some people demand a duel game that rewards "brain" more than aim they shouldn't be surprised if it goes more in the direction of chess: more thinking less movement.

Competitive chess is played with a timer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_chess#Timing

Chess becomes LESS strategic as you approach the higher levels of play, even without a timer. There's simply no value for planning very far ahead when both players are doing it, which was the purpose of adding the timer to chess to begin with. Grandmasters have been playing high-level chess as a game of tactics for decades.

First I was going to reply seriously, but then I read this:
"There's simply no value for planning very far ahead when both players are doing it,"

Rofl.

I have actually played a grandmaster albeit in Chinese chess, have you?

I mean that best I am willing to give you is that they prepare their openings against each other. But that really says fuck all about the midgame.

Would you like to edit your post to read "chinese chess" instead of "chess", or would you rather just try to troll some more?

Oh vedic.

You again have nothing to contribute on the actual topic and as usual try to draw attention away from it.

And as always, you sub-par logic doesn't let you realize that it is possible for one perso to play *gasp* more than one type of chess competitively.

Somewhat more difficult to understand, and probably too difficult for you, is that my statement in parenthesis merely clarified that I "only" played a grandmaster in Chinese chess.
If I hadn't someone dimwitted, i.e., you, would have jumped on it and said "but you claimed you played a gm in international chess".

Unfortunately for you, I didn't omit that so now you had to go full retard :(((

I once did a porn star, does that make me good at sex?
Broken logic is broken.

Nope.
But if you did a porn star you have a better impression of how good one of them is at sex, than someone who hasn't done one.


Bad analogy was bad.

You have selected: trolling

VQ3/QL = fight the map
CPM = fight the player

Not remove it totaly, but make it to hear from 3 times shorter distance.

I didn't find the games to be too slow until the playoffs - where every game mattered 10x more.

But then, i also like no footsteps in CPM.. especially in team modes, however in CPM people jump around alot more and so really i'm undecided until i see it played.

I'd like to atleast see it tried during a devpick weekend though!

Summary: CPM > * http://www.youtube.com/user/zronvc#p/u/39/7ythr2BEDcY

Rapha vs Cypher had 5 OT's if I recall correctly.

Anyhow the lack of footsteps isn't what makes the aggressor the favorite in CPM. It's the aircontrol. You can fool yourself with weapon balance(hey jum8o), footsteps, maps and whatever else you can think of but as long as you can only rush in a straight line you won't see aggressive plays all but once in a full moon.

yes aircontrol == real quake

you're referring to a game similar to the playoffs, a do or die situation where players could have gotten knocked out. Something i paid close attention too in my above post. The rest of your points are fair though, but i was kinda linking jumping around to air control too when i specifically mentioned cpm, as the lack of footsteps really make no impact in most situations considering you can jump around at 9000mph.

*aircontrol and fastweapon switch

Hehe, you are ever so right.. I can only laugh at 0-0 games like these. :o)

Faster weaponswitch, removed footsteps and aircontrol would have at least made it more entertaining, since that allows for more comebacks. I always loved how in cpm, with one minute remaining and a lead of 2-3 frags, you are not even close to safe, where in QL for any pro, this is a solid win.

Yeah, let's stop punishing people for making mistakes. :/

More damage + smaller radius on the sound given off by movement.

Mistakes would still be punished as hard as ever, both players would just be more prone to make mistakes, what is exactly what the game needs to move on.

I meant having the wrong weapon out at the wrong time and positional errors which matter less if you have air control.

There's no objective reason for a "wrong weapon for the wrong time" to even exist unless you wan't to even out the playing field by eliminating one person's edge over another i.e. reaction speed. And aircontrol does not mean you get less of an advantage for having the better position, it means you have less of an advantage if your aim is shit and/or your opponent's dodging is not, as it should be.

If you have a railgun out in a narrow corridor fight and get surprised by your opponent you should pay for that.

ok, enjoy your 20 min games with 0 frags

ok, enjoy your spammy shitfest

:)

sry, there's hardly any spam in cpm

Actually, that's more like vq3. People staying in one place and moving at a predictable speed from area to area makes spamming a must.

perhaps that's the wrong word, but i always thought spam deals with "excess", i.e. when i watch tc2 the game looks spammy. maybe i'm just not used to it

spam(to me) is shooting at a location where you have no information about your opponent

walls in CPM do NOT obscure sound, meaning that you always know where the enemy is unless he's walking or too far away

and since the speed of the game is higher there is naturally more shooting occuring, but on the other hand most of the mid to far range shots won't hit because its easier to dodge them w/ aircontrol

this is probably why you perceive it as spammy

No, let's dumb the game down enough so we can discourage any creative play on the micro level and make it about getting the first frag and then "not making any mistakes". And by "making mistakes" I mean pressing +forward.

How will more damage / less armor increase +back?

Because the rushing player will still be just as predictable and the +backer will just destroy his stack faster.

Not necessarily.

If the out of control player would have an opportunity to deal more damage, control would shift faster. Note that if 2 rockets would almost kill a fully stacked player, ambushes would pay off much more.

Anyways, it's possible to read into this both ways. I'd like to see how it would play out in practice.

I just don't see how making ambushes a viable tactic is decreasing +back.

Easier to trap someone, +back doesn't work as effectively.

How come all the Hungarians I meet are always the only smart Euros I ever meet...

;o

TDM was perfect until OSP decided to add different models for team and enemies, that's when the heavy camping began

only by itself it would just make people sneak around the map faster, but it could make a big change if boosted by a couple other stuff

This is one of the possiblities in order to make game faster paced, but i gotta agree with Guard. Just make them so quiet that you wont hear them so far as you can hear them now.

On the other side, if players dont know each others positions it will also make game slower, because making aggressive move without knowing exact position of opponent is idiotic.

Anyway I still believe that problem would be solved if RL speed and / or splash knockback will be nerfed.

Also I wouldnt mind if it would be possible to change strafing direction more when hitting ground.

RL needs to be nerfed, indeed. Camp rockets ftw right now. Long range weapons(hello rail,machinegun), are too weak to deal serious dmg on someone that runs... before it was one thing to eat rail while you camp teleport on ztn, now it's not that big of a deal(don't forget armor don't protect 66% like in q3,but 80). MG isn't accurate enough long range(hi smaller hitbox) and it's dmg is low too. When I think about it, they nerfed EVERY weapon except rocket launcher(not only they didn't nerf it, they buff it). GCG(new end game acronym: Good Camping Game). I am not good at explaining and impressing myself, but I just want you all to know that I feel the same way as you do, and when NNN people feels something is wrong, it's just wrong.

No.

Crouch-sliding ftw.

Isn't crouch sliding the worst of both worlds? It gives the arguably negative level shrinkage and geometry importance reduction of bunny hopping but it also, by tying you to the ground, doesn't offer the offensive potential positive of bunny hopping that's relevant to the excessive defensiveness of QL.

it's fun tho :)

Yeah but it wasn't in cpm, so it's good

you meant best right?

No, back in Q4 1.3, it was actually really balanced. Obviously, you just really fucking sucked at it. In fact, this is probably what happened when you tried it:

(ix tries Q4, binds movement keys to ESDF)
Hurp durp, let's take time out of my busy CPM playing schedule to play a game other than Q3
(ix tries to crouch slide to the left, but his dumb ass is only holding S and not E as well)
HURRRR DURRRR THIS GAME IS BAD

I never played it beyond the single player so keep trying.

Scared.

That doesn't even make sense as a retort.

I know, there's only so much you can spoon-feed to a retard before they start gagging.

Are you talking about yourself?

Couldn't even imagine trying to have a conversation with you

Yeah, I see what you mean. We'd have nothing in common in all, especially since I like girls as well as going outside.

Any tips for talking to girls? Like do you just repeat 4chan memes and they love all that?

Well, for me, I'm actually pretty well-educated on a lot of different things that make for good topics to discuss, and I'm natural at keeping a conversation, so all I have to do is be myself and things work out. But in your case, I'd just make sure your dick doesn't shrivel up and fall off from spending too much time gaming in the basement, so that when you get out there into the real world, you can actually come off as some sort of projection of a man, even while in desperation, you take a page from your hero Fatal1ty and ask these girls if they want to watch your CTF demos as a way to get to know them better. Girls are usually into masculinity, after all, and that's the main thing to focus on regardless of your interests, really.

Oh wait...that advice came a bit too late for you then, didn't it?

I can see just by what you're writing you seem to be a fantastic storyteller as well, all of this must help a lot as it's clear you're a ladiesm'n. Thanks for the advice about my penis dropping off from spending too much time gaming in the basement, that was a good'un.

I've gotta admit I actually did give imagining a conversation with you a go and you didn't disappoint! Keep up the good work

Jamerio?

Douchebag?

Just gave it a shot, practised on sean:

(12:13:40 PM) Liam: herpa derpa epic epic HURRR DURRR epic sean hi
(12:16:05 PM) Sean: i cook sausage
(12:16:25 PM) Liam: you SMOKE sausage EPIC FAIL SEAN !!!

Any good? I thought it was particularly funny because I'd seen certain words said elsewhere on the internet

You are a bi-winner!

And by bi-winner, I mean you win both at the internets and at macking other guys

There you go again! God I wish I could say stuff like that but unfortunately I have all these original thoughts bouncing around in my head lol

Thanks to people like you it gets easier and easier every day for a computer to pass the turing test. Your contributions to AI will not be forgotten :)

God I wish I could say stuff like that but unfortunately I have all these original thoughts bouncing around in my head lol

Despite the fact that I've been coming up with my own jokes for a long time now? lol@ESRtards...

But in your case, I'd just make sure your dick doesn't shrivel up and fall off from spending too much time gaming in the basement

An advent original

I'm like Louis CK if he still had all his hair.

Because Louis says dick a lot? He actually puts thought behind it though. Honestly out of everything you've said this is the only thing that's actually pissed me off.

I think he's running low on inspiration for new material, maybe you should meet him for coffee one day. Not because your lame attempts at ORIGINAL jokes are funny or anything, but rather, because your very presence would get his creative juices flowing again, what with your gayness and absurdly high ego and all.

Good job with the gayness remark and claiming I have a really high ego, remember when I just compared myself to one of the best stand-up comedians in the world? Another advent original right there, god talk about epic fail ¬¬ fuckin' gweilo

Hehe, I was just thinking about louis ck, you know that bit in "hilarious", where hes talking about the two men talking about bullshit behind him, and he just wants them to get down on the floor and start sucking each others dicks, but in a really awkward way? I was thinking thats what I want you and liam to do. So it was quite funny when you mentioned him, at least, to me it was.
4:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3l0pu_KCh8

Bye.

Well, at least you're not in the closet like the other Eurofags in this thread.

No sexual desire, just think it would be funny :D

Yeah, because you're happy enough with just sucking your own dick at night.

well at least karl approves
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGxGgsGVbOs

Uhhh, Louis CKs comedic content and even informative content (ie appearances on O&A) and understanding is way beyond yours.

Also, he's funny and you're not :D

Your hair is also highly flammable with all that gel in it, while mine has no gel in it and thus is not.

Gillz I know it must be hard but try not to commit suicide after reading his reply

It's tough man. If I make it through it I owe you a pint

I enjoy crotch sliding aswell

scrotum sliding

You wish you could fuck the ground so well like that. There's nothing more manly than making love to Mother Nature after all.

chuck norris doesn't slep he waites!!!!

People don't laugh at Chuck Norris. They laugh with him.

As for Liam, on the other hand...

People don't laugh at Chuck Norris. They laugh with him.

As for Liam, on the other hand...

As for Liam, on the other hand...

Liam doesn't sleep. He jerks off.

It appears you're obsessed with Liam. Do you always have such thoughts about him?

I've been talking shit to everybody today and I don't think it's ever very hard to twist his simple words around. I also rarely post on ESR at all, so I fail to see this obsession you speak of.

You also fail to see how many dicks you have in ur mouth! Epic!

See how I've just twisted your words? OR WERE YOU TOO BUSY TWISTING YOUR BALLS... INTO ANOTHER MAN'S MOUTH.................................. GAY

Seems like you're so twisted, that you twisted your cock and balls off and are now just a bitch with no genitals.

this is true my friend. crouch ftw . even a nerfed version of it would be good imho . ( it was maybe too fast in q4 )

Wish people actually played some cpma cq3 right now.

It's really great right now, the crouch sliding feels perfect. If anyone knows of a cq3 IRC channel share please!

I don't think any amount of footstep changes will make a high pressure DM13 game more entertaining to watch for a casual spectator.

No footsteps works in CPM because jumping is so much faster than running. In QL/VQ3, that difference is bigger and you might find that taking footsteps off running made people strafe jump less. Making footsteps quiet doesn't seem like it'd have any effect: if you are walking, it's because you are hiding from each other, so you are unlikely to know whether or not they are 'far enough away to not hear'.

Another option would be to have the default footstep noises disabled, but keep the 'wood' and 'metal' footstep noises. That would put the decision in the hands of the map designer.

Coming back to DM13 though, it's interesting to wonder what it would take to make it more entertaining to watch without spoiling the 'brain game'. If you break down the issue into pieces, it probably comes down to a few things:
- Size of the map and speed which you can navigate it. It's big, and there are fairly limited routes around.
- Volume and spread of pickups. There's a ton of armour, it's hard to deny your opponent to the extent that they can't tool back up. At every confrontation, players have the option of falling back to recover because there's very little risk of being locked out.
- Risk/reward on the major items. The most exposed item is the RL which makes for a very interesting meta game, but most of the other items are fairly sheltered. Mega is certainly dangerous (but often just as risky for the attacker?) and RA to some extent although players seem quite adept at avoiding taking a lot of damage.

...or something like that.

Silent running goes both ways- if you're right about what's going on you have more defensive potential, if you're wrong you'll be in more trouble so I think it's exactly what the game needs, it increases the potential error margin in top level play. Errors would allow more contact because otherwise optimal play at the highest level should be as controlling and low risk as possible.

Reducing the sound radius would also help.

Footsteps aren't the problem. Doubt they would make games any faster. The problem lies with people not wanting to commit to a battle for fear of the defending player often able to deal more damage.

The narrow hallways and uber rocket launcher is where QL is being slowed down at the moment. People have caught onto it now. If you played DM6 +foward would probably reign supreme simply because it's such an open map.

I remember specing czm when he was first starting to play again and he was still playing Q3 style. Might have even made a post about it ages ago. There was one game where he was playing ZTN against some other mid-tier US player. He was +forwarding at the 50hp bubble to the other guy who was just placing his +back rockets and obliterating czm. CZM would still get the frag but it'd be so worthless since he'd be so low health. The bit that made me laugh even more was when the game was over, the other guy called czm a 'noob lucky retard' for pushing the corridors with LG against +back rockets and getting frags off it.

There was a discussion later on in the server when ZeRo4 joined and they were talking about ways to speed up the game. Footstep removal and even timer removal was discussed. Of course, czm and Z4 said that if the timer was removed, they would literally put a clock on their keyboard to time items. The footstep removal czm was pretty adamant about but I just don't see it making a difference.

I'd go so far as to say that removing footsteps might even just help the out of control person more. They'd be able to do more ninja damage on big items and get around the map faster. The person in control being able to move faster pretty much nullifies any advantage either of them has, so it's no difference really. That said, I don't play duel, so what the fuck do I know anyway


TL;DR? - It's the rocket launcher which needs to be sorted imo. Faster rockets and the splash with tighter corridors and arches make defensive play more effective. Also, 10 minute games mean that you get punished for taking risks.

random spawning items, 15-30 sec for armors/hp/weapons. I want frags, not cs fags camping each other out.

Timing items is one of the beauties of quake though. If you're out of control you can get a timing on one of the big items and muscle your way into the map. If it's random, then you might as well +forward till you get lucky and hit a major item

For me a match like Cypher Cooller on DM13 at Quakecon is the ultimate in a skillful game. Cooller's timing and map dominance and Cypher's out of control play made that match awesome, not the frags

I also thinked of that, this would focus game less around picking the fucking item and more about fighting.
Its nice to see SOME smart play, but this is supposed to be fast paced action shooter and I wanna see ALOT more frags thats standard now or at least gameplay that rewards +f style at least as much as it does +b.

putting a clock next your monitor is all fine, but what about lans? :P surely they'd be hindered by not timing off feeling : D

putting a clock next your monitor is all fine, but what about lans? :P surely they'd be hindered by not timing off feeling : D

Quake 5 is what really needs to happen tbfh.

unfortunately for my wallet, you're right.

don't really understand why people keep discussing that kind of stuff 2 years after open beta and 9 months after " release "
I find it hilarious how everybody wanted the game to be a slightly modernized version of vq3 2 years ago and now it's like they want something q4ish back in town powered by idtech3, which would have been a great idea, 2 years ago, I don't even think people would have whined as much as they'd do now if it had been done before introducing bloodrun and the other oldschool maps.

Yes, Quake 5. We need it :(

I miss the days when you had to PICK what 1v1 game you wanted to play (UT, Doom3, Quake 3, 4, PK, etc)

[+]

id's studio(s) will be liquidated by ZeniMax before Quake 5 ever happens.

Maybe doom 4 will have a nice mp..... maybe...

don't tell anyone on here, but i started playing multiplayer ID games online with Doom3.

shhhh

I thought the finals were fairly fast pace for the first 5-6 mins of each game.

Can't
Play
Must
Alter

You can't change the design of a game based on the two best players in the world playing a championship game on a 10 yr old videogame.

Of course they are going to play it slow and boring because they know all the variables and their aim/tactics are so refined a small mistake = game over.

The majority of players don't play anywhere near that level of ability, so its not such a big problem.

you can paly boring in nearly every game and make it look bad.

You can't change the design of a game based on the two best players in the world playing a championship game on a 10 yr old videogame.

http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/

quake live is already altered you dumbass bitch

NO! Footsteps many times help the one who is attacking. It is one of the tools against +back. The problem is elsewhere. Even if u know where the other is, it is hard to approach and attack him, mainly because of the rockets.

Exactly, all weapons where nerfed, rl was buffed.
GT-smaller hitbox(SH)
MG-SH/lower dmg
SG-SH,lower dmg
GL-SH
LG-SH,lowered dmg output,no cripple effect
PG-SH
RG-SH,lower dmg
RL-SH,bigger splash,faster rockets,bigger bouncing effect

So, all long range options to deal dmg are nerfed, witch leads to more trouble killing someone that runs--->more caution to not die, because you will comeback harder(tl10 doesn't help either)--->more peak shot/def games.

RL is buffed so you can deal more spam dmg, and with the bouncing effect you can more easily stop someone rushing at you and hit him with good second +back rocket.

I disagree about footsteps, would be fun to try as a devpick though.

Another thing that can be tried is a powerup which gives you cpm (or q4) movement and maybe instant weap switch for 30 secs, would be an interesting twist to duel (and/or ffa/tdm). As a devpick anyway (even if it sounds good it could be terrible in practice).

The maps are the main issue, they are pretty good but old (and thus extremely well known). They also allow players to avoid each other quite easily.

For example in Q4 you had monsoon, phrantic, placebo effect - so you saw a lot of agressive fast games. If q4 was played on larger maps all of a sudden the games became slower. The movement and weap changes can only make up for so much.

Just my opinion! :)

You are partly right, but you cant deny that if rocket speed would be put back to 900ups it would be a hell lot harder to just +back and block players coming for you with rockets..

Yeah I agree, not sure why the rl speed was increased in the first place anyway

Because Sync prefered faster rockets. It was a popular decision at the time though because everyone was fresh from the LG only game that's CPMA.

Ah right, makes sense now. Actually I (sort of) take it back... I think function9's idea is better. The bouncing around thing could be tweaked so that you can only make people bounce if you get it in a small radius around the feet, and outside of that the bounce is reduced by a lot. I'm not sure 900 ups would make a big difference. Then again maybe both ideas together would be nice.

Both must be tried...separate and combined.

Rocket speed I don't mind so much, what does bother me a lot about rockets is even when you dodge and take minimal damage you're still probably going to be bounced around like a fucking piñata. Seems incredibly easy to bounce someone around with rockets in quakelive compared to q3.

Sure, if you land a rocket at someone's feet I'd expect them to go flying, but not when they're at the edge of the splash radius and took maybe 10hp.

This. You take little dmg, but you bounce around witch stops you rushing at enemy and he lend good easy second rocket on you.

that's what happens when you increase the pop because kids are too lazy to spend the 10 more minutes it would have taken to learn to rj properly.

cl_timescale 1.337 should fix it

Funny how in rapha's interviews he says that the movement changes have made the game faster yet all the games were significantly slower. Maybe the pro players aren't yet sure what implications the chain jump has for the whole game?

Like Swelt/Bst said I think the maps really have a significant part to play in why the games are so slow. Games on Hektik and Aerowalk are still very interesting and exciting to watch.

It seems to me that players play slow because if they're caught off guard with the wrong weapon out or in a bad position they will receive significant amounts of damage before they have time to return damage or get away. So players only want to make "moves" on other players when they feel they either have to or that they have some situational advantage. Maybe some slight tweaks like:

--slightly faster weapon change
--slightly faster player movement (by introducing a very small amount of air control or some other means)
--slightly damped footsteps
--slightly increase occfactor (so that sounds can be slightly heard through walls)

Maybe this will lead to a slightly more "forgiving" game for those moments where the most "marginal mistakes can cost you the game". I know that "forgiving" sounds distasteful but it means that both players can take little more risk with only a little less consequence. I think some minor change in player movement (only minor; nothing approaching CPM) might give new life to QL movement/gameplay. Ramp jumping looks promising (though not many maps utilize it).

tbh aerowalk in ql is nowhere as entertaining as vq3 aero, mostly due to the spawnsystem

and op rockets... its just rocket spam fest with rail whoring now

Could you pls stop posting everywhere that rockets are op? They are not!

They are. :)

u must have real bad aim since u obviously are so biased, by any statistics we watch rockets are overpowered. Dmg made, weapon used, best dps and cc ratio...

They are.

This

+d.

i dont even think we need to go as far as having air-control even. its mostly a combination of a variety of factors all mentioned here. but fixing rockets (less splash radius, less speed), no walk sounds, and maybe slightly faster movement (still think a fixed ramp jump system would be enough PROVIDED good maps are designed specifically for that movement system in mind which forces people to make movement a skill that needs to be learnt).

the other thing is ammo. having practically limitless rocket ammo all the time is a large part of what makes the +back rocket game so viable. ammo needs to be tightened up a lot. perhaps less ammo per weapon pickup along with less gain per pickup with weapons u already have (cpm style).

Warsow has no footsteps. It works just fine.

Warsow is like CPM+UT put together. Swelt already explained why silent running is practical for a game like that.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2047661#pid2047661

How the hell is Warsow anything like UT?

Uhh, wall dodging? Duh?

Keep in mind that the context here is revolving around movement...

It's still not like ut. And wtf is wall dodging?

lol...the concept is the exact same and you'd have to be blind to miss that, but are you really going to nerdnitpick about how they're executed differently in both games?

It isn't the same, you're just retarded an never played it.

lol, okay, go ahead and tell me I didn't play a game that I bought back in 2003 when UT2003 was the latest game, and even though I bought the CE of UT2004 the first day it came out. Not to mention I played UT99 since 2001 before that, and have pretty much been a fan of the UT series for a decade. Oh hey, look, my copy of UT3 is sitting in my box of games in my closet, too! But hey, I must know nothing about a series that I played half to death growing up, right? You obviously know more about it than I do, even though you haven't explained worth a shit about why I'm wrong and have just said:

HURRRR DURRRR, UR RONG, IM RITE, DURRRRRR

Fucking idiots, seriously...

I'm obviously talking about Warsow, but you just proved my point.

LOL. Obviously! Narf. 8) Gotta love how nerds like to twist around their argument to make it convenient for them whenever they realize they've said something retarded.

And, besides, I also played Warsow, you drooler. Why else would I be talking about it like I know how to play it? lol@ESRtards...

I never once twisted around anything. This is exactly what you're doing. I stayed calm and didn't rage at you or anything. You are the one that decided to do so. If anything you are the retard.

I asked what wall dodging was, you never answered me. The only time I mention UT in my posts, is when I asked how it's similar to Warsow.

Stop being a fucking hypocrite. If you are going to argue a topic with me, don't just call me a retard, because that's what you're acting like. Now if you're going to reply, please answer the original questions:

How the hell is Warsow like UT?

Wtf is wall dodging?

Have a good day, sir.

in UT walldodging is when you're near a wall in air, you can dodge off the wall (just like regular dodge)
wall wall dodge wall dodge wall dodge dodge wall

Ah, we call that wall jumping in Warsow.

Which is what I was talking about this whole time. Way to look like a dumbshit, chode.

Yeah, I'm the one that looks like a "dumbshit". Resort the insults to make your self look tuff. Hey if you need the ego boost, go for it.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2049459#pid2049459

Yeah, that totally doesn't warrant me ridiculing your dumb ass when I was being respectful. If you're going to be a baby and think I'm being an asshole 'cause I used the word "nerdnitpick," well, you're retarded then

"ridiculing your dumb ass"

LOL

We are on esr. Yeah I'm so embarrassed guys. You ridiculed me in front of my entire posse!

Quick, how do I delete my account? I'm in shame.

Didn't everyone realise like eight years ago that DM13 is a shitheap? Hub3DM1 was never the most popular vq3 map either.

I realized it back when I first played Q3 competitively and they were using nodm9. If only most people were as quick to see these things as you and I...:(

The thing is, everyone was quick enough to realise this; DM13 wasn't played for years. Why is it back in the map rotation now?

At the time I think it was lack of maps in quakelive that made dm13 a [somewhat] viable option. I guess it's easier to convince people what was once old and shit is new and exciting than it is to have something completely new in place from the start.

Yeah quakelive was/is a test-bed, but someone was really off the mark thinking they could have q3 launch from a browser with only the original q3a maps and it would be a smash hit.

Footsteps don't seem to be the problem to me.
Remember 2008 ESWC Q3 tour. Some whined about too much +back even then but compared to now the mix of +forward and +back was pretty even. So what has changed (maps and movement are still mostly the same):

Weapons are 20 % weaker, making armors 20% more valuable.

QL ammo system turns the game into CA with items.

Timelimit 10 instead of 15.

Force-spawning instead of Q3 spawns where you have to run them (= +forward).

Overall QL is more forgiving which means that having an positional or other advantage does not pay off enough.

Remember rapha's last minute attack camping on upper LG exit on dm13 against strenx. In QL this attack failed, in Q3 it would have worked 100% imo.

Not that I dislike low scoring tactical games, but pls not all the time:P

"Weapons are 20 % weaker, making armors 20% more valuable."

This applies to every other weapon, but plasma, rockets and granades.

Rockets got even buffed...

Nerfing "aggressor" weapons while keeping "defensive" weapons at same values or even buffing them and then somebody dont get why game has turned so passive? :D

Rockets are weaker = deal less splash damage but are faster = easier to use.
Grenades and Plasma you're right ofc.

Plasma was nefed(smaller hitbox). Besides, quake was aways high dmg output game. Quake 1 = die too fast / not good for casual spectator. Quake 2 = still die somewhat fast. Quake 3 same(tho with every quake they nerfed dmg output a bit). id tried to balance it (dmg/spectator friendly) with ql, but for me they just over do it.

"Not that I dislike low scoring tactical games, but pls not all the time:P"

in all fairness this will happen all the time unless something is changed unfortunately :O(

PUT IN TIERED ARMORS FFSWTFBBQ

cpm style gameplay would attract more people's attention who don't play the game

they would have to fix the sound 1st anyway

Maybe not about the footsteps, but movement overall. When I am watching demos/playing in ql and cpma/vq3 (ye ye, still installed:d), I am noticing some differences in strafe jumping. For example take a look on cypher's movement in cpma/vq3, he was so fast after few jumps, then I watched his random demo in ql and his moving seemed slow to me. I have asked this question before but nobody answered me - are there any differences in strafe jumping between these games? I mean jumps height or sth else?

yes there is afaik some difference, they made afaik strafejumping faster and easier for ql

But cpma/vq3 movement seemed more dynamic for me

The fixed 85 FPS physics of CPMA/VQ3 (with increased jump height tho), if executed properly, fits the maps perfectly since the maps were made with that physics in mind, maybe that's the cause of this impression.
OSP and QL physics however (OSP because of rounding error, QL because of OMG_Make_it_easy), though wider and faster jumps in themselves, don't fit that well (overjumping/crashing into the wall if going for max speed). At least that's how I understand it.

I dont understand whats going on here. Playing defensive doesnt make the game boring for me. Players still exchange damage and item control which makes for very dynamic games at high level. Im not against removing footsteps as it also favours defensive play in some ways.

i can't even get friends from other games to watch quake duels because it will be a dm13 passive-fest.

theres a lot of depth in the map control which can make it interesting at times, but overall it's just outright boring

People just pissed that Rapha out-coollered Cooller.

Also Cypher/Av3k didn't bring out any spectacular aggressive moves to showcase how fast QL can be. Maybe if Cypher was still winning people wouldn't be complaining about how "slow" the game is?

I'd say it's more of a map problem at this point. Weaps seems fairly balanced. Is the +b thing even a problem in other modes than duel?

Lost track, but for example, is t7 considered too RL heavy? ZTN and dm13 just have so many corridors to run through and so much hp/armor to pick up when on the run. I like both maps a lot but chasing on them sux.

Also, RL and GL should have max ammo 10, at least in duel.

not a bad idea, maybe 15 though i think 10 might be a bit harsh. Also, maybe try it like CPM where you can only pick up guns if you are under a certain amount of ammo (eg. 50 LG)

If we ever-so-slightly adjust things according to these suggestions. and all of the suggestions, at once. then we'll probably effect the game for the better by our collective intelligence, yes? ;D

what did you call me?

I called you Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife.

And i'm pretty sure you will have your vengeance.. in this life or the next.

LOL BESTEST MOVIE!!!

I know I enjoyed 2009 tourneys more than 2010/2011. Faster action was in place. Maybe reducing so much hit boxes wasn't good idea,because this nefed mainly other hitscan weapons, not that much rocket launcher with was buffed in first place, and lead to even more powerfull RL, dunno. Lets take a look at agent---> he use fov 120, he have bad hitscan(rail,lg), but he have good rockets and good +back... he compete with best players. My point is he moved to 120 fov just for better rockets/awareness, because he saw that its much better to have good rl than railgun,lg(for his style).

Just need to have less armour on a lot of maps.

Perhaps you could have 1 ya and 1 ga on some maps.

On t7 you could have a green armour in the mega room just to force more fights for armour.

On dm13 you could have a green armour in the lg room to force more confrontation (although map might become quite unbalanced out of control) or try one green armour in the center of the map so the player in control needs to attack top ya more.

On ztn have a green armour down by lower tele to stop the running game.

Pretty drastic changes i know, but it would definitely give more chances to attack and a greater need to engage.

Congratulations, you are the winner!

I watched these threads a long time and this is the first time I see the correct answer ( in combination with less rocket ammo).

That's just going to encourage much less attacking and much more peekrails. 80dmg rail would actually be as powerful as 100dmg rail is with a normal armour/MH layout because there's less shit lying around for people to health up on. With that said, this is a terrible idea when you think about it.

I do appreciate the effort on this one, though. However, you aren't accounting for the fact that most Quakers play like total pussies.

Make RG 5 slugs for duel then :)

It's not an overly bad idea.

Peekrails aren't gonna be a problem on ztn or dm13 are they ?

On t7 yes perhaps, but it's hardly a really open room and that's what out of control is about. Avoiding being hit while you build up an armour stack.

The main problem that you failed to address is the starting spawns will be much harder to manage.

to be honest this seems to be one of the best ideas so far, right after nerfing RL to what it was in q3.

Some of the yellow armors need to be changed to be green instead. Atleast following ones, dm13 lg ya, ztn rl ya. In maps like aerowalk, hektik and t7 I dont see armor setup making games more passive, it just the little too powerful rockets.

taking away timing as a skill is a real bad idea imo. there are other ways to make aggressive play more rewarding.

Keep footsteps. Using your walk bind, and using sound to your advantage are both important parts of the game and they should remain important parts of the game.

IMO, it would be a better idea to bring back the Q3 spawn system, and Q3 RL.

But no matter what changes you make to the game there will still be low scoring games sometimes, especially when people are playing in big tournaments with a lot on the line.

Even if you cant enjoy low scoring games, I think more people should at least learn to respect the tactical play that goes into it.

wrong site to tell people to respect quake pros.

:P

respect the paco

i'll say it again, most quakers are closet cs'ers that just want to camp and one shot enemies while crouching.

Duel with less then 30 frags = fail.
Tdm games with less then 400 frags = fail
Ca round that last more then 15 secs = fail
Ctf scores below 5-8 caps = fail

If I could [+] this twice, I would.

Even 50% of this would sometimes be nice.

Just play quakeworld already then, aka the real quake. :)

aka boring spamfest

http://ignition.qwscene.net/?sid=4&mod=signups&act=view
#19

Not the snappiest comeback in the world. :P

Just found it funny :p

First of all the games were pretty entertaining.

I don't think changing footsteps would do anything at all. Even adding sort of weak double jumps didn't make much difference.

Changes I'd like to see, not because they'd radically change the game in one way or another, but just because I think they'd be fun, are:

Q4 style teleporters, allowing rockets, plasma and grenades to teleport.

Faster weapon switch. Weapon combos are pretty fun. I don't think weapon switch should be instant, but faster than now would be more fun.

Remove or reduce the armor / health decay. This decay was originally put into Q3 to encourage aggressive play, but I think the unintended consequence is players spend a more time recouping items than they would otherwise. If you have more armor you have more freedom in how you choose to play.

"Remove or reduce the armor / health decay."

This should be done, atleast for health.

agreed.

why?

I would think forcing a player to replenish his armor and health, in order to stay stacked, actually hurts the players who just want to run away the entire match?

not really when it mostly hurts the player in control since health / armor wont decay after its lower than 100.... Which leads to the fact that nowadays fights between player in control and player in off control are like 170 / 170 vs 100 / 180. If health decay would be removed controlling MH would be more precious making controlling player have more advantage over player off control, making it possible to be more aggressive.

That may be postive in a tie or a situation where the controlling player is behind, but the problem is this:

Once the controlling player takes the lead and has a 200/200 stack he has no incentive at all to move (except maybe to hear timings for later).
So he could just go to an easily defendable room, stay there and wait for the other player to get 200/200 and attack. As people, including you, have written countless times, the player defending a spot has the advantage so he will most likely get another frag.


cool game :(

ehh, dont you understand that if they dont "control" player out of control they will lose control.... If they dont pick MH and RA they wont stay in control and will get raped....

I am sry, but have u ever played duel on decent level?

ehh, dont you understand that if they dont "control" player out of control they will lose contro

I don't?
Gee, I wonder why I wrote, "wait for the other player to get 200/200 and attack".
Maybe because that will be no problem?
Please try to read more carefully before saying people don't understand something...

If they dont pick MH and RA they wont stay in control and will get raped....

Is that really so?

The player has 200/200, his opponent who then gains control cannot possibly get more than that, but he is that one that has to attack.

Or are you, of all people, trying to tell me being in the defensive position in a fight with equal stacks puts you at a disadvantage?

Have you ever thought that its possible to deal dmg and then retreat to items and go back with the full stack again?

sure. But I only said that he has to wait until the attack (granted I also said he will get a frag, while that is not necessarily true).
After the attack he can move again, and since according you repeated posts in other threads, he should have considerable stack advantage is more likely to bully opponent from the items. Get back to 200/200, rinse, repeat.

How is this more entertaining/aggressive than having to move towards locations because your health and armor keeps ticking down?

you seem to be too stubborn to let it go though you know even urself that you are wrong, so whatever man. I dont care a shit if u dont understand game the sameway as i do, but for fucks sake dont come telling me that i am wrong.

Idd, I think I suggested this in a comment above. Make the armour like CPM where you can only take armours at certain levels of armour points.

I don't think that's a good idea for QL, because in the CQ3 games I played with tiered armors it was almost impossible to break control. To the point of just not being fun. Tiered armors were just too strong without making the movement or weapons more powerful too.

Tiered armors would also start to really screw up other modes. Particularly in ctf, flad d becomes much harder to kill.

If you want to remove the footsteps you may aswell remove the railgun and lightning gun sounds too

This whole discussion about how to make the game more fast paced is pretty pointless since the solution is so obvious: buff weapon damage.

I'm not the first person to say it but the most significant change from cpma/vq3 to ql was the weapons being nerfed (except the rl). Might I add that a lot of this is due to ql's poorer netcoding/smaller hit-boxes.

I mean look at how q3's weapon damage has changed over the years and it's correlation to the average amount of frags/damage dealt per a game:

OSP - weapons strength: medium.
Average amount of frags per a 10 minute duel game: 20+-

CPMA/VQ3 - weapons strength: strong
Average amount of frags per a 10 minute duel game: 30+-

QL - weapons strength: weak.
Average amount of frags per a 10 minute duel game: 10+-

These are all rough estimates ofc.

If we want faster paced games with more frags all thats needed is too make weapons stronger. IMO it does not remove skill from the game and also allows for a wider range of playing styles. Buffing just the rl while nerfing all the other weapons is obviously the main reason why ql is so campy and +back in it's current state. I

this and 15min time limit.
+ more knockback for all weapons.

15min is too much for tournaments.

Why that all of a sudden?

this.

I like the idea of stronger weapons, maybe a mix of OSP and CPMA...

Whenever I watch a CQ3 demo every fight looks so devastating..if you get railed you're like "FUCK" where as in QL you get railed and you just think "damn..." LOL Very shitty way of describing what I mean but..whatever.

Also I think because of the high damage weapons, people were more willing to take risks such as trapping stacked players in certain situations cause they knew they'd do a shit ton of damage even if they died..where as in QL you are a majority of the time guaranteed to give as much damage as you receive so the person with the better stack 90% of the time wins.

Bring back 7dmg MG and 100dmg rail!

Yes, higher dmg makes people more aggressive.

"Bring back 7dmg MG and 100dmg rail!"
Result: more defensive +bw railing.
If you really want to encourage players to be more offensive increase lg damage/cripple.

One thing I disliked about CQ3 was the massive lg whoring and the whole "rush with shaft."

Either make lg 8dmg or keep it at 7dmg and add cripple. D:?

I'd rather see people +back with rockets like Quakelive than +back with rail though. Which is why I don't think rockets should be changed anyway.

Yeah.

I agree completely with that it's a shame that ambushes and smart play rarely pay off, and both players just keep running items until they bump into each other for some reason. :D

lmfao

what we need is a more Quake 4, Quake Live.

i agree mainly for crouchsliding :D

duels will always favor defensive players. rapha in ql, rat in cpm, dag in qw etc. it's just the nature of the gametype itself.

I don't understand why people say slow paced games are boring. I found the final of IEM very entertaining.

I saw a very tactical game between 2 players who respect each other's skills and knew that every wrong move could be the end for them. I'd rather watch that kind of game than the constant bunny hoping around the map of cpm.

Very funny how there's a new thread every week with suggestions to make QL a better game. Most of the time the suggestions are there to make QL closer to a previous episode of Quake. If you weren't such sheeps, you'd have sticked to the game you liked in the first place and kept it popular and visible for sponsors.

erm, I play and watch Quake expecting fast paced and intense action along with smooth movements, otherwise I'd just watch CS/CoD or w/e.

I believe most quakers are kinda like me hence the number of threads about it (since yes, QL is far slower and punishes agressive play severely)
What I like about CPMA in particular is how both defensive and agressive play work perfectly fine so you can actually pick your poison and are not forced to use a passive playstyle like in QL. Plus the way you move around the map in CPM is soooo smooth <3

Defensive play in CPM? I'm just gonna call your bullshit right here.

as someone said earlier, rat was great and played kinda defensive in CPM

While this is true, CPMA also allowed players to be as successful with an aggressive style. Playing 1v1 against Vo0 was fucking terrifying, as soon as he got the advantage he'd fly round the map like a crazy motherfucker and never let you settle into the game; it was awesome.

that was my initial point, CPMA lets you be agressive or defensive and doesn't punish you for choosing one particular style

rat played a defensive style? Really? I admit I haven't watched a rat demo in a long time, but frankly I remember being amazed at how much he'd push his advantage while in control instead of playing it safe and falling back on an armor or mega. Guess he was very good at choosing situations when to be aggressive but when to be not aggrressive :)

yeah he certainly wasn't "passive" or +backing all the time, he just didn't look that agressive compared to someone like Vo0

I saw a very tactical game

No.

the last matches between top duel players showed us the game is just too passive.
0-0 at the 18 min mark is just not acceptable, and the reason why it happens is nowadays top players think it's more rewarding to stay safe than to take very small risks. It's like screw ups matter more than taking chances.

I really appreciate slow and tactic games, but I also understand there should be a place for people that like the opposite. Because of this my opinion is that map pools should consider both, so dm13 should still be there (hopefully with some change to rockets so I don't have to see another 0-0 match like that one at iem finals) but aerowalk should have different respawns so there are more frags.

on the other hand ql's development shows how id has 0 interest in quake live, therefore 0 competent people thinking about it. That's why I prefer weapon balance to stay the same than they messing up with it (check shotgun changes, just to be reversed next patch)

give them a crt/tft 120hz and things look different again. cypher would have probably made a move earlier. trust me.

uninstall quakelive
install Quakeworld

your on my list, badbadman

silly this is quakelive not qw or cpma. go back if anything :/

If they increase hit-boxes by 10% and remove footsteps this is going to be totally new game. I don't think I would like it, becouse it would be even more all lg. Everyone hitting 50%+ easily. I think they should adjust weapons also if they change something

dude, they already increased hitboxes by 10% :D this topic is half a year old

Woops, my bad :D

vo0 hates rapha