pizza hut shakin' it up

See... saying 'there is no point for the CPL to go back to q3 when the other's don't' isn't really an opinion it's more like stating the obvious.
Because fact is if only the CPL goes q3 the majority of high-level players will remain with q4 and together with them their sponsors. The problem here is that without sponsors (who equal the ability to travel) noone could get to those q3 events making the whole thing useless for everyone including the CPL.

What Angel might have meant -aslong as the whole q3 thing isn't just a lame marketing stunt- is this: If the CPL goes q3 there is a good chance ESWC/GGL/(Quakecon) do the same thing while wsvg might just drop duelling seeing as they never really cared about it anyway.

This would result in a new situation for everyone and a much larger interest in quake3 with the possible return of the players/sponsors etc. and might actually mean the return of q31v1 'cs1.6 style' .)

gj at totally misunderstanding his comment

[...]

edit: good job editing and then writing something totally different :p

I really really doubt the CPL are seriously considering going against the duelling mainstream as long as they do not have the backup of the players and their sponsors (mainly fatality and his crew). Otherwise if eswc/qcon/kode5 stay with q41v1 switching games could literally mean suicide to the CPL.

WTF are you talking about?
How popular was PK?
Don't tell me the players in WT05 could not afford going to CPL - they made way more money than people at Q3 tournaments.
Go and read it again.

edit: I edited my message before seeing yours. [...] Haha, you just did edit your post, too, lier!

Ok let's quit the EDITING shall we? :}

I'd say there's a big difference between 2005/WT05 and today: WT05 and PK were 'successfull' because of a) lots of prizemoney b) lots of players eager to get a new shot at the money c) lots of sponsors backing up those players.

Every point is different in '06. The CPL had a time of obvious struggle and might not ever return to the big prize money style of last year. Most of the high-level players seem to want to stay with their new game (and not go back and get raped by the standard q3 top10 guys) and together with them their sponsors.

Of course this might all change as soon as other leagues do the switch too and together with them the important players (read: fatality and everyone who brings some pr with them) hop on the train. It just doesn't look like that to me atm. But I'm fine with you dis-agreeing :>

Zealot you're missing the fact that not everyone who is playing Q4 at these events are even making any money. Maybe the top5 would stay for sure but would those outside of the cash stay? I doubt it when they could play a game they prefer and win some cash at the same time.....

I don't think tournaments without fatality/stermy/toxic/cooller/fox/ztrider would work (= where's the thrill).
Most of these guys already said they prefer q4 over q3 right now be it for the cash or whatever.
The cash is going to be crucial though seeing as wvsg/eswc/kode5/qcon > cpl in that regard. Only a new 'real' WT with the amount of money of WT05 could change that. Don't you kinda doubt that CPL will be able to pull something like that again? 'cos I do although it's a shame seeing as I like q3 :/

You are blind. Cooller said he would play both games at the same time in an interview. American players like cl0ck, nomadic, destrukt and socrates don't mind playing q3. And I'm sure there are more players that would play q3, just look in the CPL forum.

Younger players like clampOK or cypher would not
like to go back to q3, theire game of choice is quake4

How do you know? Cypher played q3 more than q4.

but he wasnt nearly as good as he is now in q4. enemy, keeper, cherya, immortal were better than him.

he was also VERY young at the time right?
now that he is 16 he might actually start showing the maturity needed in today's duelling. Don't think he would do that bad at q3 at all if he played it before

neither was av3k... and he says he wants q3 back. And when talking about young players, av3k fits in quite nicely :>

And? There's still Q4 events for them to compete in.

I bet apart from Stermy/Fatal1ty/Toxic/Fox/Ztrider/Maybe Cooller the rest would all play for sure. And those I mentioned there would probably play both unless there was a schedule conflict (Bar Fatal1ty/Stermy perhaps)

if cpl hosts prizes matching or bettering wsvg's then most will go q3

"Moreover I am dissapointed with pro-gamers who support Q4 - what are they looking for? More numbers on their check? Don't tell me Q4 is a 'better' game or that it will split the 'community' or that 'rising stars' can't compete in the 'old' game etc."

well, firstly, yes, "pro-gamers" look for more money on their cheques because they want to try to make a living out of it, by definition.

secondly, sponsors like to advertise their products in games which their product is actually needed, which their product can produce something others cannot. hence wanting to use recent games. the sponsors that fund the organisations like CPL, ESWC, WSVG etc.

thirdly, if you use cs as an argument, then cs has a VAST fanbase/community that follows it. which i know the quake series does not have. and the only way to get sponsors for games other than letting them advertise themselves in the game, is with a huge fanbase at the current state of things, to my knowledge. but what do i know.

Ok, are you saying that Q3's community is not 'big'?

comparably it's common knowledge it's never come close to the size of the cs community.

Let me tell you a secret: Q4's community consists of you and 17 other players.

point?

Point is Q3's community is way bigger Q4's and therefore can be compared as CS1.6 to CSS.

it's nothing near the size of cs. tell me how the following figures are even comparable.

http://archive.gamespy.com/stats/

2000 (q3) vs 80000 (cs)

what fortress tried to say is, that the size of the community is no argument here, since q4's community is much smaller the q3's ;)

sponsorship itself is in reality not an argument, too. they don't care what is played, they rather care, how many people see their ads. example: the company i work for (avaya) was one of the biggest sponsors of this years fifa world cup. and i think telecommunications and voip and all that stuff doesnt have that much to do with soccer.

thank you

"secondly, sponsors like to advertise their products in games which their product is actually needed, which their product can produce something others cannot. hence wanting to use recent games. the sponsors that fund the organisations like CPL, ESWC, WSVG etc."

I am _SO_ tired of seeing this argument all the time. What do you base it on?

Allow me to refute it once and for all:

1. The hardware sponsors sponsor events, not games per se. They advertise at events populated by "computer interested" people because these people are one of their target groups.
2. Even Starcraft and CS 1.6 professionals need the latest hardware once in a while as most of them play other games on a casual level.
3. If the big hardware sponsors were so afraid of these "old games", how come they are sponsoring an old game like CS 1.6 when they could be sponsoring CS Source instead?

Let me conclude by quoting Angel Munoz himself:

Angel Munoz: Additionally, we are currently in discussions with our sponsors and our worlwide partners about this matter, and thus far the support for Quake 3 is strong.

source: comment 25 @ http://www.sk-gaming.com/scene/10312/

Now does that quote suggest that the sponsors are litteraly crapping their pants in fear of a Q3 return? Not exactly. In fact, quite the opposite.

So far nothing indicates that sponsors are "unwilling" or "less inclined" to sponsor older games like Quake 3, so stop using it as an argument for fuck's sake.

/chill :]

ok, i think i misread some of what you said previously

just practice q4 maybe you get good at itsomeday

stop whining just play the game or go play cs

This comment clears it all guys. Discussion solved.

It doesn't matter how much shit you shovel into your mouth, i don't think you're gonna grow to like the taste of it anyway. You'll be one badass motherfucker on shitshovelin' though.

pm [_]dird on qnet for scat porn

i would love to practice q4, but everytime i try and join a server, i can't get on it for some reason

update: random 'it' removed

;D

the classic "you don't like it because you suck" comment

unexpected

who wants to play a beta game with beta mods and be good at it?
this doesnt represent much skill...

dude stop whining plz. It isnt as buggy as it seems maybe you should start the game and play it before whining that much about it.. i know they still are issues with autodownload the rockets dont hit sometimes and no GTV. But its another game dont compare it to much with quake3 who had a succesful 7years which is immo quite more then enough. Quake4 will be good if they just keep the plans of 1.3 and GTV.

i played it an i hate it... i dont like 2 play with delay... atm there are like 20 ppl worldwide that can honestly say that the y like this game.. and thats good oc ... i wish i could say the same... but im one of the 50000 that doesnt like it in it scurrent state


its not whining... its the simple truth

delay what the fuck are you talking about?

right now this game is really worthless... the sound is crap... full rockets do not count... that in combination with several other bugs makes it unplayable.. specialy on inet... its absolute horrible

tell me what u like about this game... im curious

believe it or not but there is a lot u can like about it. i played q3 before and q4 may have different disadvantages (even in part of the points i will mention now) but here is what i like:

better movement (crouchslide mainly)
slower weapon switch (planning ahead is more important now)
new maps (i was tired of dm6, ztn and hub over and over again. q4 maps arent that great but we have a few maps right now that i realy like and new maps will come out be used)
new pro scene
better gfx (i use vertex lightning, simple items and high quality texturex etc. i know many ppl diagree but i like the q4 gfx. and i have a shitty comp and can play q4max realy well)

and well, the few bugs that are left will be fixed. the sound is already worked on. so it will get better.

Are you kidding?

better movement (crouchslide mainly) - Eh... no? tried CPMA?
slower weapon switch (planning ahead is more important now) - Slower game play != boring to play, boring to watch, zzzz...
new maps - They're all crap except for phrantic which comes from, yeah guess what? CPMA. Thanks swelt.
new pro scene - Nope, same old but with a few exceptions and no TDM scene to speak of.
better gfx - It all comes down to personal preference. I think it's all greyish and brownish shit. It's also too intense.

And on top of that we have the shitty netcode, crap sound engine and the bugs. So come on, do you seriously think Q4 is a better game or are you actually as stupid as you sounds to be?

"better movement (crouchslide mainly) - Eh... no? tried CPMA?"
i actualy played cpma for like 1 year. (mostly ca though)
aircontrol != better and i can do without little things like faster acceleration if i get crouchsliding for that. its a realy grat addition. and well, i played both games countless hours, so i think i can realy compare it. and i dont say q4 movement is better, its just that i prefere it.

"Slower game play != boring to play, boring to watch, zzzz..."
thats your opinion. i dont think so.

"new maps - They're all crap except for phrantic which comes from, yeah guess what? CPMA. Thanks swelt."
after the words "all" and "crap" i already smiled. and then i read that u think my least favorite q4map (okay, amcs is worse, and i dont like the rail in q4) is the only good map ;)

"new pro scene - Nope, same old but with a few exceptions and no TDM scene to speak of."
a few exceptions but also some semi new players. but more importantly more tournaments and new competition. well, q4 tdm is realy dead and its not realy fun to play either, but i only care about duel anyway.

"And on top of that we have the shitty netcode, crap sound engine and the bugs."
your right about the netcode although its not that bad. sound and bugs are beeing worked on. and again, its not that bad.

"So come on, do you seriously think Q4 is a better game or are you actually as stupid as you sounds to be?
i never said q4 is better. just said i prefer it all in all although q3 has some advantages... but i guess that and your other non valid points are enough for u to assume that i am stupid... or to answer your question, im not stupid ;)

hahahaahahahhaa

fuck it ...theres nothing to like about q4!

great argument...

what about...this game sucks donkey dick... eh?

whatever...
i dont care about random ppls opinions as long as they dont explain themselves.

random ppl... im an expert ..and im telling u..this game sux dick.

So you're a dick suck expert?

yea i can tell when a game sux =)

q4 is 2 easy in a retarded kind of way!

theres 1 simple way to solve this, and its very simple if the right people see the right comments.

1.Q3 was great, its had its time.

2. Q4 isnt so as great but its something new and different.

3. The future Q5, built for online play, use a similar base of what quake 3 was based on, same damage, similar physics and just redesign the engine using the same cartoon style graphics but at the more advance level the hardware is at now, not so much though that people with low end machines cant compete.

backup evidence, warsow? thats real playable why? because the graphics are low enough to cover all spectrums of pcs and ensure high FPS which is needed for a competitive duel game, in turn this is due to its cartoony styled graphics. Game developers need to stop banging in the latest engine technology as its just creating a split community.

There was an excellent comment by Zeicon or something:
Q3>>WSW BY A LANDSLIDE

did i compare which was better ? NO i shared the similarity of graphics. Nothing more, i did not say any were better then any of each other? so dont jump to conclusion young one.

Sorry, didn't read the last paragraph..

so what was Angels quote ?
not clearly to me

I doubled the line.

shut the fuck up.
quake 3 is dead, get over it.

go play CS newb

yeah clearly noob.
get a clue.

trying to compensate for 16 other Q4 players indiffrence to the discussion? :)

huh?
i don't understand the point of your reply.

What exactly made you say "shut the fuck up" and "quake 3 is dead" ? :)

Why do you want to know opinion of a person whose only argument is "stfu"?

"The uncommon man wants to leave a world different from what the
found; a better, enriched by his personal creation. For this he is willing
to sacriface much or all of the happiness that the common man enjoys."

that quote would be so much more profound if it didn't have spelling mistakes in it

it's not an argument, it's what i want you to do.
there's a big difference.

my point is, making something 'new' and 'esporty' with something that isn't up to date is just a waste of time.

and why would "new maps and new gprahiczzzozoz" make q3 any better than q4? the game is OLD.

if you want money you play this kind of games, end of story.

you are right, q3 doesnt need new maps or grahpics to be better than q4, its already better without those things, they are only nice extras :d

better != money machine

how many times do i have to do this......

You did not make that point in your original post. Thanks for coming around to make one instead of "stfu".
Now, as to your point.
"making something 'new' and 'esporty' with something that isn't up to date is just a waste of time."
First, noone is talking about making anything here. Second, you're always making something new out of something old, coding is not an exception.
"why would "new maps and new gprahiczzzozoz" make q3 any better than q4?"
You're the first one here mentioning "new maps and graphics", and I'm really not sure if this is being considered. Quake 3 as it is, is better because Raven has produced a really shitty pile of nothingess that is Quake 4 comparable only tons of other titles companies produce nowdays. Adding new maps and graphics should only be done if they are better, and logically that will make Quake3 even better in the end.
"the game is OLD" What diffrence does it make if it's old or new? Would you exchange 15 year old Porche 911 for some new crappy Shevy or any new Russian car (god save). Most people wouldn't.
"if you want money you play this kind of games, end of story."
If you want money, you don't actually play games, end of story.
All of your points are pretty moot, I think it's obviouse why you went with "stfu die" in your first comment.

don't try to explain this to a mentally retarded person

are you some kind of sidekick?
did i hurt your feelings?

hello, this post is too long and i didn't really wanna start this huge discusson about this.

all i'm saying is that people (fortress is one) just don't realize that those who have the money want to show off their products, that isn't possible with old games because of the graphics, the only reason counter strike makes alot money is because of the numbers of watchers, quake 3 would have what, 1000 viewers on cpl final?

the usual reply i made wasn't just to this forum post, but to all "Q3 > Q4 YOU SUCK LOLZLZLL =)=)Z OMG OF LOL EPIX OF DOOM"-posts on this site.

cash talks my friend.

uhm, half of my post is your post, you're basically wrong everywhere and I describe why in a long form so you get... but
How about you read the last line?
"If you want money, you don't actually play games, end of story."

yes like 5 lines were mine, i really can't be arsed to discuss this since this site is filled with blind q3-lovers who don't see that money talks.
you can't say oppinions are wrong, because that's all there is here and i have no idea where you're going with the "not playing games" comment

we've had our fights before and i think there is language problems between us.

yeah, real language problems. Like, the word "GAMES" doesn't stand for the word "JOB" in English language.

i'm sorry, are we not talking about CPL?

Sorry if i dont see money, but I sure do "feel" fun and well Q3 IS FUN AND Q4 IS NOT!

fun has nothing to do with this!

It can be done. A stand-alone version can be done. New maps can be done. And since q3's engine is now open-source, modders have all the freedom.. I was telling you about the project q3evolution yesterday and we might even see better graphics which could attract more people additionally. All of this requires that the community goes in the right direction.

that's where i got "creating something" from, maybe i misunderstood the post.

yeah, "can" does not equate "must" or "necessary to"

then why make the post if it has no meaning and no "let's do this instead"?

Because a possibility of improvement can be considered in weighting the choices.

geez, i'm tired of this.

i'm pointing out that ppl are disapointed with big tournaments choosing PK, Q4 and just wanna stick with the old games, but that ain't gona happen and i'm tired of the whine, even if this thread isnt 100% what that was about i felt like posting it here.

and yes, weighting can be done here but i don't see the point.

lol link, if you don't like what I've written then don't read it and gtfo

i read whatever i want, i post whatever i want until admin disagree, ok?

Q3 is dead?
Maybe ... it had once a bigger scene than now ...
if you call this bigger scene 'alife', then you are right to declare Q3A dead now ...
but what about Q4? I mean it has never been alife, so it can't be dead ... what about Q4?
Q3A, although it is dead has a much bigger scene than Q4 ...
and after all these games don't differ that much gameplay wise,
but technically Q3A has a big plus, because it's not as buggy ...
so Q3A has very similar gameplay, but the bigger scene and no bugs ... so why shouldn't one use Q3A instead of Q4 ...
I don't see why ...

because it's old and ugly.
gameplay means nothing when it comes to money.
sponsors wanna show off their hax0r fps with their new hardware on cool looking games which "are just out" etc.

you're stupid and ugly
better gameplay means more people are willing to play including pros
why games like CS and SC (and even WC3) are sponsored then, smartass?

see post below.

and ugly, lol? what has that to do with anything? i look good and i'm aware of it.

UGLY

no u ugly!11!!! and q3 FOREVAH !! *CYR*

you're not even denying that you're stupid -_-

i didnt even wanna comment that (because it's kind of relevant to our discussion) but if you really want it -.-

IM NOT STUPID EITHER


ok? happy? ...

lies

he said "relevant" -_-

yes i did! wooho! :>

now if that's really the case I don't see why the hell sponsors keeps sponsoring events for CS, SC and WC3 since they're all old, ugly and there's no reason whatsoever to play those games with next gen hardware. So saying that the sponsors won't be interested in sponsoring Q3 again just cause it's old and "ugly" seems kinda stupid.

see post above, CS CPL final gets about 16k viewers while CPL had what, 1k viewers at gtv at most? it's not the same crowd.

I wouldn't take the player base in count considering PK with it's 17(?) players got sponsored for the whole last year. It looked like shit, felt like shit, people hated it and still sponsors backed it up. So yeah, it's more or less bullshit. If picked, Q3 will definitely get sponsors for events.

PK was new and flashy.

wtf are you talking about? that more people would watch q4 than q3?
use your brain

dude..... you're really not reading

q4 = new and flashy
cs = big crowd
pk = new and flashy
q3 = old and small crowd

where is the hard part?

you are the hard part, go take some mental training

strong argument

i'd put it like

q4 = new and flashy, no crowd
cs = old and big crowd
pk = new and flashy, no crowd
q3 = old and small crowd

i guess any crowd is still better than no crowd))
will sponsors be ok if there's no crowd to see what they're sponsoring for?

i have no idea what their intentions are but clearly they'd rather sponsor "new and flashy" games, even if there's not the same crowd.

why ppl can't say q4 is better? -_-

read the ten commandments:
"Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor."

because it simply isn't...

retard

Than why is it? It's not as fun as q3 was, it lacks many things that ppl wrote about at least 300 times and it's seriously bugged.

Than why is it better? Because it's a newer game? Is that what makes q4 better?

Its better cause they are the new breed of wannabe coollers who just want to see a measly 200 $ a month paycheck for finishing 13/16 th at every lan while playing a game they dont like.

its all about the money baby.

it's everybody's own opinion if q3 or q4 is better.
How narrow minded you can be. If someone likes q4, let him like.

You know as well as i do that most of the pros in that iview who said q4 only keep it cause of the money

Note the 'most'

sry but i dont believe so

its true

ok then

They aren't the same game. Physics and gameplay are different, maps are different. You can't say q3 is q4, but just better. They are different games and if someone likes q4 why can't he say its better?

Stupid to say "Don't tell me Q4 is a 'better' game". Of course he has right to express his opinions. Like everybody else is doing by saying q3 is better game.

That's why the survey on the cpl forums was for. To see which game most people prefer - q3 or q4. And apparently q3 won it 79%-21%, so that's why I think q3 is just a better, more enjoyable game for most people.

not a reason to deny that someone might think that q4 is better

I'm not. I just think that most people think that. Not all of them obviously :)

then you replied to me without a reason :(

errr, I just gave you a reason why quake 3 is considered as a simply better game than quake 4. Because most people think that it's more enjoyable what the survey on the cpl forums clearly show.

But ok, consider it as a reply to #105 :)

Amazing how people get all upset over stuff like this. XD

Grow.The.Fuck.Up!

i guess you mean me, and i'm not really upset with the thing, i just don't like repeating myself and i dislike not understanding what people mean :<

fyi: this post wasnt meant to target you, my dear :).

the only thing why quake 4 is 'better' is because it has a higher number. if Quake 3 was renamed to Quake 5 there would be noooooo problems!

Lol quake 3 isn't ugly on high quality. Quake 4 is ugly with the ugly bumpmapping, the plastic look. That engine is bad for competitive games(however I'm curious how quake wars will be)

that 'bumpmapping' is in fact specular maps, which can look fine if you don't turn it up insanely high(d3 style).

By the way, some pros opinions are just silly. If somebody sucked at quake 3, they won't admit that quake 3 is a better game, because it would probably give them a much tougher situation at the cpl events. They would have to learn many new things in a much shorter period of time than the people that were really good in quake 3.

If they are afraid, they won't be as successful as in quake 4, they'll just keep on saying that picking quake 3 is bad. But it's apparently only bad for them, not for the whole community.

A good example is the last toxic interview, I think. He's a top dueler; he always finishes 2nd or 1st on every major tournament now. But he wasn't that good in quake 3 so he said that only a 2v2 tournament format would fit cpl. But that's only because he's a top in 2v2's with fox.

Sorry for my broken english ofc, but I think that I made my point clear :)

hehe yea, i mean, personally i think toxic could do very well in q3 if he was to pick it up again, but he did admit on irc that he thought it would be easier to make money in q4, hence his choice.