yes

H O R S E S
O
R
S
E
S

B R E A D U
R
E
A
D
U

A S S C L O W N S
S
S
C
L
O
W
N
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yay

YAY0*

unrelated: when are you going to stream outlast again? was mad fun.

I'm not sure just yet, regular broadcasting has been interrupted, watch this space and all that :E.

hrhr

noice

Can i come on?

just drop it

I dont hate you CMSS
all these idiots hate you because they fear your power, freedom and honesty, you remind them that they gave up their freedom and honesty to fit in.
fuck everybody :)

ps: i have apsolutely no fucking clue waht has happened here.

and that is why you don't hate CMSS

I only hate you for not telling me what has happened here instead of leaving this cunts-message. and that will only last 10 seconds.

Why does everybody hate you?

Jelousy

Just now on irc:

14:10.31 <cmss> i was subscribed to zoot for so long, what a fucking waste of money omg now i cant even buy that second hand monitor omg..... wow zoot can i have my money back>

14:14.19 <cmss> im unsubbed now but, money will still being taken $5 a month, and he has had atleast £60 from me, and that is all i need to buy that a monitor which i dearly need.

14:16.11 <cmss> In addition to that [CAPS]
14:16.17 <cmss> I could not even benefit from anything [CAPS]
14:16.31 <cmss> Im still perm banned in his chat, so i cant use emotes and he didnt even let me play in the later sub events [CAPS]
14:16.55 <cmss> so i pay him £5 so he can treat me like shit?
14:16.59 <cmss> fucking idiot

14:19.54 <cmss> yeah zoot thanks for consistently taking my money and treat me like shit

14:20.38 <cmss> send him this
14:20.40 <cmss> and tell him
14:20.44 <cmss> to pay me via paypal
14:20.47 <cmss> [email protected]
14:20.49 <cmss> i want my money
14:20.56 <cmss> **********MY*************

14:21.59 <cmss> either give me my money back, or buy me a monitor, his choice + (monitor of my choice )

Zoot, you have 24 hours.

He just seems like a loyal fan who has been treated badly.

he does, doesn't he.

He is too cool for you mortals.

Damn! I thought that subscription thing was only paid one time. 4.99$ a month?!? rotfl
I feel you

We should be doing subs we could be rich!!

get a job

Hi dkt.

i would tell u to go fuck urself but xou would nuke my post then.

screw you, buddy!!

Hi butthurt.


: D

so is xou :(

i was not referring to the money that the streamer earn, but the money that the viewer spends..

I am very poor, 5$ a month are too much for me

that's like half his allowance.

Is this happening?

This is happening.

Lvl^ :):):)

How do you like the new FFA?

Didnt play yet,no connection :(

Good for you!

^_^

glad to see leveluptv doing something now! :D

dis gon b gud

Wasn't talking it an activity only cooller was designed to involve in?

you should get him on to have the final word in every episode.
Coolers final word, he is talking it now.

Hope it doesn't clash with tomorrow's 125fps. Normally wouldn't care, but tomorrow cooller plays.

Looks as if it should start straight after the games are over from 125FPS :)

Oh nice

Don't worry. Cooller postponed his matches until tomorrow.

Maybe he'll watch your show

or Maybe you can get him in the show

maybe cooller is hosting the show

cooller = show?

coollers list
list is life
cooller is life

- some news
yay0 cant play at 19:00 cest, he can play only at 20:00 cest (22:00msk), so match vs cypher is postponed 1h

http://esreality.com/post/2628796/125-fps-aug...yoff-stage

Nice to see action from levelup, when I started playing 9 months ago I found them in search of people who want to help me learn the game. No activity then though, maybe there's still hope!
*crosses fingers*

Yeah its been a while sorry!

Why the fuck isn't LevelUpTV in the live stream box thingy?

vor laughing about quake being "ruined" sarcastically. I bet he hasn't even played since the changes. He certainly doesn't seem to understand them.

Tell me how it's ruined if you can still play Classic? Or is that ruined too?

from the looks of it, it's more +back now, some people would probably consider that ruined

(thanks for the shoutout on stream, was definitely at the anger stage :P)

Apart from the minor LG change, what's different? You can still play classic (although unranked), there's multiple servers running classic at any given time so I don't see how that's a problem.

duel classic is still ranked.

Duel.

What about TDM, FFA and CTF?


...

vor's surgestion of everyone forking out some cash and just spawning classic servers all day is quite a nice one.

The change to two clear subscriptions and non-payers being able to join spawned servers with no invite is definatly a fucking good move by id. Players will learn the wepons, loose interest with button bashing in the public and become curious about 'all these classic servers' with actuall names and players with more brains.

He's spent all his time dick riding sponge and co. since the leak.

He is obviously going to support his paymasters

-_-

server lagged so badly, so i missed it.
going to watch the rerun later today. i can't wait :)
love me some drama

Thanks for the stream
lvl^ <3

time to sbscribe to nvc guys, dude needs some steaks!

Haha it's just the shirt, i lost a lot of weight!

to nvc:
wasn't cripple removed in 1.20 cpma? did they put it back in or what?

changed: removed LG "cripple" effect

That's for cpm or cq3, not vq3.

Interesting show, I would generally agree with the sentiments with respect to the changes, but there is one point of contention, which was briefly mentioned by the casters, and that is the creation of two rule sets.

With the imminent release of the game on Steam, the current expectation is that there will be some growth in the community, and the recent changes are designed to facilitate a higher retention rate of these new players by artificially increasing their surviviability, and improving their general usefulness within the game modes. If it is unsuccessful, the players will leave, however, if it is successful, would these new players demand that the competitive standard become the Quake they have become accustomed too, or would they be willing to learn the "Classic" rule sets? In building a community -- that is, a competitive community, not just a large pub-centric community, it is important to have consistency by homogenizing the rules so that as a player progresses, those skills which he/she has acquired continue to be useful to them, and more-so, something they can continue build on. By dividing the game into two rule sets, you may, and not necessarily immediately, but in the long run, create two insulated and exclusive communities.

Again, this is not to say anything bad about the changes if it is clearly, and explicitly communicated to the those players they are playing with certain handicaps. You could create a meaningful tier system something akin to CS:GO (Silver I, II, III, IV Elite etc..), and players progress up the ranks certain things are taken away from them i.e. the ability to carry a load out on public servers, the ability to see the timer pie-charts, etc. I think if you had such a system, you would get to keep the changes to public games, prevent a community schism, and also facilitate these new players into the accepted competitive norms, and standards, whilst retaining the benefits of the new changes.

I think the community is right to have some concern over the changes, because it appears that id is locking the game people want to play behind a pay wall -- in short, forcing their remaining player base to play the game they have supported for up to 15 years. Is there an ethical issue here?

Edit: Just a bit on matchmaking. I totally agree with vor that it won't help bring in thousands of players overnight. However, it has just struck me that match making is not about attracting new players, but about retaining the new players who do try the game. As we are all now aware, there have been in the excess of millions of people who tried QuakeLive, but only a very small fraction continued to play a game... As he admits "it makes quality of life better for those who do play it," and I think that is the point. If there was such a system in place there may have been a chance to retain a higher percentage of those players, and even its implemented now, before it's released on the largest digital distribution service, it may provide some added life to the game.

I agree, have a plus.

Really good explained. Also the idea for progression over tiers and certain things taken away while players do so, is quite a blast.

Agree 100%. This is really my only concern after getting over the initial NIGGAS TOUCHING MY QUAKE. It is a big one though and one I think is probably solely in the hands of id. If this move is successful, who will they cater to? The extremely loyal but minor fanbase, or the fickle masses?

That ranking system sounds like a really good idea. Let the new guys start out light, and then gradually move up to proper Quake. If there were some in-game tutorials of sorts tied in as well as they progressed up the ranks that explained item times, strafe jumping, know when to be aggressive, etc, then I could see this really work. But good luck to anyone who would try to convince the current staff of this.

Meanwhile, that's what I've been saying in a less articulate, more douchey way, yet you get plusses up the ass! Pfft...

... have a plus.

tl;dr version anyone ? I see it has a good amount of [+] so it could be interesting

This demands some scrolling, you as the master in this should take the challenge ;)

as it is now, more noobs might stay but the transition from ezmode to classic will be very rough. Xero's suggestion is to drop crutches like item timer pies as your skill progresses.

fantastic explanation, very very well written. Couldn't agree more.

Interresting read. I remember Sponge and Sync saying that a lot of people trying the game doesnt even finish their 1st match.

Any idea why and how to avoid that? I think there is a few options that are wrongly configured by default, like having the screen shaking when you are hit etc all this is default to 1... that and the fact that they probably get destroyed like they have never been before :s

Some features should be offline like a campaign mode, it is a MUST. Even why not a cooperative campaign mode. That and the maps in QL are all realy bad imo. I quite liked some of the UT maps which had a wide variety of environements, be i skyscraper, caverns, Maya temples, which felt more appealing. QL CTF maps are all terrible in that regard.

i have played with 1000's of newcomers. They all had a great time in their first game until certain people came on the server and raped them left and right. There were but a few in the first couple years of QL (few meaning, maybe 20 guys who really stomped newcomers on lower tiers), but id's inabilty to crack down on those users for biased reasons (because many of them were grandfathered in from q3,q4 and invited personally by the devs), only caused more and more people to emulate their actions and before you knew it, by 2011, there were literally 100's of guys like that per gamemode keeping new players from having a good time.

So to answer your question, the only way that this game could have avoided players from leaving after their first match, was by ensuring that the bad eggs were removed from the game when people starting reporting them. Ordus and Sasparillo prob did their jobs, but when the reports were forwarded to syncerror's inbox, he simply failed to follow through based on connections he had made with those players or due to their status in #focus, #403 or elsewhere in the community. 2010 was a pivotal year. A lot of things could have still been reversed then. The playerbase didn't really start leaving till the 4th quarter of that year.

and yeah, the exclusion of a campaign mode, to this day, is baffling. That would have helped new players tremendously. id is just simply behind the times (tooltips for example).

I didn't even have to read it to spot CooloutAC.

id take note.

Congrats, you have just pointed something out that so few have understood since ql's inception. I would plus if i could. I would only disagree that a matchmaking system or a crackdown on abusers would help keep the incoming players to the game. Anyone who joins quake on steam, who isn't familiar with the game, is not going to stick around long enough for such a system to work if implemented. Sadly, the damage has been done years ago and it's really too late at this point. I wish you would have said these words 4 years ago in 2010, before the paid subscription model was enabled, that would have changed everything. Thanks for getting it however.

CS:GO has three rulesets for demolition: casual; competitive matchmaking; and competition. The community is not divided.

sure, because you have incentive to warmup a bit in an unranked pub game and THEN move to ranked competitive matchmade 5v5 emotionally-filled battles, caring for your stats, so that you climb up the ladder and earn new chevrons.

And btw - csgo HAS matchmaking.

Comprende??

No I don't understand the significance of what you are saying that I have already said. Please enlighten me.

When I first played CS, I just was getting sniped too much, so left it, has this element gone for action lovers?

Episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqh-6RpYq-g

Q&A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIdfxowyA2o

next time pls use url tags in the news, you know how to do it

Realy liked the half time CTF mode idea. Seems brillant.

Reminds me of UT99 Assault mode kinda.

Dear vor, you'd be mostly correct if it was even possible to spawn a TDM server with the old settings.

Even after changing 20 things on the Start-a-Match page, you get almost but still not there (you can't disable machineguns dropping from dead people).

You probably think it's just a flip of a single switch to go to classic. No wonder - the only logical move was to provide such switch to the current Pro Subscribers. But you're wrong :)

Interesting. So is that the only change, the drop of mg?

Depends on what you're asking.

New "classic" defaults are 5 dmg MG, fraglimit enabled, dropping powerups, no friendly fire etc. So those are changes compared to how you used to spawn servers previously.

You can switch all that to the previous settings but it's still not nice. Distributing long presets, people confused on where to put those, that's unnecessary.


But the real change is something you can't change back. Dropping MG is the only confirmed change in this category.


I'm also hearing rumors about slightly different physics and weapon knockback, but that's unconfirmed, probably placebo.

Pretty horrible show. They basically acted like having something as default gametype vs. having it be spawned by paying people and require specific searching for is no difference, which is horribly superficial. I like most of the rest stuff, but the fact that they ignored it made it quite nonsensical.

I'd love to see a company like riot put the same changes to LoL, hiding the standard gametype the same way, and see how many of the 30+ million people play it a month later. You can act like we're hardcore, and we are, so we're less susceptable, but the truth is the same psychological rules still apply and the standard gametypes will be severely damaged and even mor handicapped in growth.

Or I guess I'm wrong and "wah wah crybabies can't pay for game only cry." Thats the level of detail that matters apparently.

Yep I see your point. I think we will follow it up again once we have more experience with the changes. This is an initial reaction, originally to the leaked changelog and changed last min to the full release.

While I stand by my opinion, I am sorry for being a bit harsh with my phrasing. I just feel like the point I described is very central to the topic at large.

I agree with you, but I am not against a change in game play as the default. Is this the correct change I am not sure at the moment. I would lean towards its not a big enough change actually.

I feel like the majority of it can easily be things around gameplay, like matchmaking, steam release and chat channels or something. I think people overestimate how Quake gameplay is impossible to popularize. It's hard and unpopular therefor it has no potential and it's unpopular for that reason is a prevalent opinion IMO. It's harder, but there's enough of the right kind of people around for it. My reasoning has to do with Quake being popular among all kinds of people once, so it should have potential with at least a portion of people today.

However, even if it isn't, you were on point that they could have easily shuffled in some paid gametypes, made loadout freezetag the suggested gamemode or done whatever like that. Fucking over TDM like that, for example, without even making it a new gamemode, is a joke. Just makes the community focus on duel more, which in turn kills the game more.

By the way, how was the show? Format, pace, subjects. Feedback welcome as we want to do it regularly if possible and do the best job we can!

Can you make overlays for zoto?

: )

U looked pretty as usual : 3 :

Love a bit of colour

I think vor cut both nvc and you too many times. it was interesting so it's okay but nvc looked bored at times

I also think you looked at the reactions and situation a bit superficially. people are pissed about the changes but it's a tipping point after years of frustration with id not implementing certain things/features, about feeling being pushed in a dark corner to cater to new players who don't love the game.

I'm not sure vor (for example) would have said the same things 3 years ago, it felt like you were a bit disconnected of it all. it's good to be able to put it into perspective and the situation isn't as dramatic as some would have you think but having somebody who's actively playing (like zsx) would probably have shed light on a few things you overlooked and provided a different view.

I liked the rest of the show

Yeah I agree it probably was a bit superficial and you are correct we might have argued a different point a few years back. Its clear opportunities were lost with Quake Live but its such a broad subject I think we just wanted to keep it as focused as possible on this one, about the specific patch.

Is zsx back playing?!

Is zsx back playing?!

BEST. FUCKING. QUAKE. STREAM. EVER.

It was good in those respects, may be slow for other subjects but for this one it was good. Only beef I had was no mp3 / podcast rss, release it next time if you're okay with not cashing in the millions of advertisement money.

I prefer podcasts, and id rather do it that way. I see little value in watching some faces on a webcam, but it seems the done thing.

If we get more regular I think I would start it as a podcast.

I ripped off an mp3 off it to be honest. You can just rip it off and offer up as a podcast yourself, or have someone do it for you. Hardly any loss of content from the video most of the time if you're not that interested in staring at faces.

I think it was kind of unfair to pull out a comment like "cancelling my sub, they can all starve" out of the wide spectrum of opinions and just go from there. There was actually a lot of good thoughts by people who strongly disagreed with the changes, but explained why.

Also, the irc log played a big part in the outrage, imo. When one of the devs says that the existing users will keep playing regardless of any new features, I think thats kind of a big deal - and you didnt even touch that topic. In that context, this patch, after a months work, has brought more *new* content than the previous 6 years altogether.
It would only make sense to mess with the gameplay in some kind of a last-ditch effort if everything else had failed, but not under these circumstances.
Btw, Sponge isnt even right. Remember how many ongoing duels there were in 2009/2010? Countless, at least compared to now. Vor says the outflow is a natural thing, which it is to some degree, but many of my q3 mates quit at that time as they felt ql was getting nowhere and simply said they might come back once ql becomes better than modded q3.. and that has never happened. Imo thats as much worrying as the lack of new players.

I'd like to also hear your opinions on how these changes help a complete noob, because thats the whole point of the "steam" patch, right? How does someone, who has never played a quake game before, profit from all this?
I mean its been said many times the very first match is the do or die thing here. How do the new features help someone, who has no clue that jumping makes him faster, that theres something as a powerup, or how do the weapons work. Wouldnt be a forced 3-map tutorial on weapons/movement/items with an eventual drop off into instagib / f-tag a better way?

Well, hopefully youll find some of these things worth discussing the next time, and if not, its ok.

I liked it even tho I disagreed with a lot of points you made :D.

Two things I wanna point out.

First was the lg discussion and how vor said gear back then was so bad people barely hit 20%. I've watched some duel demos from 2003 and apart from it being rather dull to watch (I have no personal connection to that time) I noticed people literally didn't dodge. Like there was this cooller demo were he ate every rocked, jumped into lg etc. My point is that the gameplay has evolved and players adjusted to there surroundings. Wasn't cooller also the first one who brought dodge to a new level?

Second point is regarding the new blood. There was and is some decent duel talent but when you reach a certain point becoming better requires huge effort and tbh that's not worth it. Because who's gonna put that effort into the game to reach the final step when there is almost no money/tournaments?
Back then people had incentive because there was cpl word tour, wsvg etc.

And tbh duel gets tedious. Don't wanna bring up a netcode but I think duel with the current netcode is just not fun online.


ps: ok, I just reached the point in the vod where vor said the part about cypher. FML :/

What part about Cypher was that?

That he had a completely different environment to learn and master quake.

Yeah? Isn't that kind of obvious? He'd never be the same player he is now if you gave him the current Quake competitive environment to develop in. None of the best players would, it's partly why the game produces no top level players anymore.

Yes it is. But some people don't seem to understand it ;).
I just finished writing the comment when I reached that part in the vod so next time I'll wait till the vod is over :P

Oh sorry, I thought by your initial comment you disagreed or something.

I've put up a server that I set up to play with classic rules and settings. (aside from keeping with the 6hp LG, not sure how people feel about that). Also set the shuffle to be random rather than skill based. Since people like to bitch about the shuffle being broken even if it's really the skill rating that is lackluster more than anything (or one team having a player that is too good to even out the match).

Here's the configuration. Let me know if I've missed something.
{
"maps":["campgrounds"],
"cvars":{"g_gametype":3,
"sv_hostname":"Classic Team DeathMatch",
"teamsize":4,
"fraglimit":0,
"timelimit":20,
"mercylimit":80,
"ruleset":1,
"g_inactivity":120,
"g_shufflePowerRatingThreshold":999,
"g_friendlyFire":1,
"g_dropPowerups":0,
"g_weaponRespawn":30,
"disable_weapon_machinegun":1,
"disable_weapon_hmg":1,
"disable_weapon_chaingun":1,
"disable_weapon_prox_launcher":1,
"disable_weapon_nailgun":1,
"disable_weapon_bfg":1,
"g_damage_mg":4
}}

Our current preset is always available at http://tdmpickup.eu/#switchTo4

What does "disable_weapon_machinegun":1 do for you?

Only removes it from possible pickup points.

I don't want to imply matchmaking would be the second coming of JesusCooller for Quake, but I feel as if literally every argument vor made in the MM discussion (roughly minutes 37-44) can be destroyed by the following point:
BF and CoD are able to deliver a decent playing experience even when you as a player get raped. They probably do it by means of having great graphics, creating the immersion of actually being in a real life battlefield, not having the biggest punishment for being not exactly great at the game or something like that. This isn't the case for QL or CS. The game changes fundamentally into one of the worst experiences you can have in multiplayer gaming if you aren't playing people of roughly your skill level. There's no fun (at. all. NONE.) in playing a FFA where you lose with a K:D 5:30, let alone a Duel. If you're in a team mode (CA/CS), you additionally piss off all of your team mates (noobs are kicked from CA servers all the time for a reason). That's why matchmaking is more important for these games.

You're probably right to some extent, but I don't know whats fun about going 5:30 in any game, really. Also while one or two people who are beyond terrible can be somewhat hidden away and not effect a 32v32 BF4 game too much, when it's more than that one or two, and it often is, it noticably impacts your team. In the gametypes with a lower number of players it hurts to have bad team mates as much as any QL/CS game. I'll agree that this is a bigger deal in duel though, being crushed hard in any 1v1 game is not enjoyable whatsoever, doesn't matter if it's Quake, Starcraft or FIFA.

Obviously agree about the graphics and immersion, but these are things Quake should have as well, you should be immersed in whatever environment and action that Quake is presenting, futuristic, demonic, whatever it may be, the next Quake has to tick these boxes.

I do think the punishment for dying is fairly high in BF4, you lose position and the maps are large, getting a good position back can take time. Respawns aren't instant either, if you're dying say 30 times in a game, that's probably at least 300 seconds of downtime. Then you have to spawn either on a squadmate or capture point, adding more time where you might not be doing anything of note. Quake at least lets you straight back into the game (except CA of course), the maps are small and the action generally close. I'd personally find BF4 more frustrating if I was bad, but apparently people are willing to stick with it.

Something about BF and CoD keeps people playing even if the person is terrible, far more than in Quake, I don't want Quake to become either of those games but there is something there for a future Quake to make sure they identify and learn from.

Yes well put. With regards to BF4 it can be a bit insane with some randomers doing stupid non team contributory things, which then makes it harder for that "squad" person trying to coordinate an attack on a base.

But the upside with it is that, you can see where you died, and see where you can spawn safely. I would never want random spawns taken out of quake, but a simple map toggle, to show where you died, on a map, and potential spawn points of where you might start, could be useful. I say this as "map knowledge" is one of the biggest things that experienced players have over newcomers, weapons or not.

Lets not confuse the point that we all want match making and some kind of fair skill ranking. But vor's point is that matchmaking is not a feature that will actually attract players in. It might keep some playing a bit longer, but more of the issue with Quake is that people are not interested to try it anymore.