I knew that day will come. ;)

CTFFA \o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/















uhm no.

All credit to Perpetualwar for putting this up for a vote imo :) was really pleased to see this.

I've heard several people on here mentioning the return of 5on5 again on ESR before and while I rarely post on here, I always agree with it these days. The problem is that from a purely competitive standpoint, 4 vs 4 is a more skilled/aim heavy and competitive mod without any doubt at all, but is it much fun?

The 4 vs 4 "thing" was generally something that was really "pushed" in the early days by EO, who were very much the standout/strongest CTF team of that era, so naturally they wanted it to be as competitive/skilled as possible and for a long time I agreed with it and I was generally quite downbeat over the thought of 5on5, as i felt it was more "noob friendly", therefore perhaps worse? but lately I've been thinking about this a lot........

In recent years I have seen 4 vs 4 "evolve" more and more into this horrific 0 def , 1 mid (the defender), 3 attack with just continued pressure until something happens and caps can be created. It just plays really horribly and is surely now something that is barely even what traditionalists would call "proper" CTF anymore.

You also have the fact that 5on5 is far far more welcoming to newer players, where they can participate without a problem and be "carried" far easier without any problems to the overall flow of the game. In 4v4's you tend to find that pretty much all newer players who add to pickup games a few times tend to soon vanish.

This is pretty much my thinking process on it all...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is 5on5 more skilled than 4v4 for competitive play? no.

Is 5on5 more lotto? yep, naturally it will be, with more potential for spawns + chaos, but isn't that what CTF used to be about?

Is 5on5 overall more fun/exciting to play for the majority? again imo yes

Is 5on5 something that newer players could add to and start helping the scene grow again? quite possibly.

Is 5on5 one of the reasons that public CTF is doing so well, yet pickup is not? very likely yes!

Does 5on5 potentially open up new map options again, such as stonekeep and several others? yes, for sure.

Would I have wanted to play 5on5 CTF 2-3 years ago? No, i just didn't see the damage it was probably doing to the lower/middle areas of the clan community.

Would 5on5 actually personally make me want to start playing CTF again now and just have some relaxing fun, without all the super serious BS? Yes, totally.

Pretty much nobody wants to play clan games where they can barely even cross mid, with 2-3 people sat in their base, and the opposition defender as the lone mid guy, often purely as a result of them having just slightly weaker aims than the opposition.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many others feel a similar way? :) hope I'm not alone!

I'm hoping to push for another 5on5 day in #ctfpickup sometime very soon to see how that goes also.

Thats it, and i would say that 5v5 is more teambased/tactical than 4v4

I don't see how 5v5 is more lotto... In fact the less players you have is the more lotto in CTF. If you ever played some 2v2 or 3v3. Those are where respawns and lucky path selections really matter. Yes, individual skill matters more the less players are playing but at the same time the more players make it much less random to make a cap. As for competitive play the team difference gonna increase even more, I cant see anyone being lucky to make a cap when there's one more winz or someone playing vs you. You'll vice versa have even lower chances overall being tdmed and spawnraped

"when there's one more winz"

Don't be ridiculous! There will only ever be one Winz.

;)

I'm not fussed what 2on2/3on3 CTF is like tbh, but there is a massive difference in flow between 4on4 and 5on5.

In 5on5, aim is far less important than in 4on4. The mid area is no longer anywhere near as controllable for vast amounts of the game and in most cases, you'll find the defender actually has to actually defend, rather than just being the mid guy with the other 3 teammates just fighting through mid + solidly attacking.

It always amazes me when someone thinks it's really 4v4's fault and not the nowadays raised level of aim/general play. It's just as dull as comparing TDM or duel to what it was 5-10 years ago. And format didn't even change in any of those.
Lmao at 'aim being less important'. This is fucking FPS and it's just as important in 1v1 as it is important in 10v10. The competitive game is all about positional pressure and map control nowadays and in 5v5 it would be just as hard to get the mid control back or just pass it when there's one more aimer controlling and spawnraping you. I.e. you wont even be able to get rail on maps like c2 when enemy gets mid control. Why do you think that it's gonna be a constant def and not 2 mids 3 offs? With own teammates more frequently spawning at own base to stop occasional attacks it's not really gonna be a big difference about def, it's just the most efficient way to play nowadays ;o
The only good thing about 5v5 is that powerups and items overall are less important and that there's less armor/hp per player on the map to gain stack while control, but at the same time as I already said I believe positionally it's not gonna be any different from 4v4 whereas lucky/organised caps are gonna happen less often and overall stronger aimers are gonna dominate even more

Its like you really believe that quake players aims have significantly improved in CTF in the past 5-6 years that Quakelive has been out :p which just aint true at all...! people were hitting 40% lg 60% rail in 2008 and there were far far far more genuine div1 players around then than you will find currently, maybe even 10 times more, and the mid was just not holdable in a way that it is now because of all the chaos that 5on5 creates.

People's aim's in quake used to improve with better hardware but throughout the whole period of Quakelive, practically everyone has had max fps, great mice, max hz, etc etc.

I have to say I don't actually even remember a h8m3 during the early 5on5 Quakelive CTF era at all, so it sounds a bit to me like you are just speculating on how you "think" it'll play, rather than speaking from any actual extensive experience with 5on5 Quakelive CTF, but who knows.

Anyway, I've voted, you've voted..! no point me replying any more.

the nowadays raised level of aim/general play.

Personally, I think that the level was higher during the Q3 days.

Nowadays you can find some games where every player hit more than 60% RG, sure, but it's not about personal skill, it's about netcode.

its also about improved hardware and connections, not just the netcode.

I agree one hundred percent.

The boring 0-0 all mid playing style is a result of increased overall player aim, combined with maps that have hardly changed in style since 10 years ago.

Hell, even cpm which is way faster than QL which should theoretically give an advantage to the attackers, ended up being all mid once players wanted to win.

I mean, honestly, 0-0 games in Q3 where apparent literally 10 years ago, once the CTF clans started recruiting a few tdm players with superior aim. 0-0 and 1-0 games became the norm very early in clanbase's history.

The boring playstyle has nothing particular to do with 4v4 or 5v5. It's the maps' fault, combined with an inherent flaw in CTF favouring "safe" tactics more than offensive tactics.

If anything, CTFS (roundbased ctf where teams switch between attacking and defending) is a superior flag based game mode.

edit:

fuck it, not gonna leave a troll comment after all.

My points against 5v5:
- loss of ironworks, infinity (don't even like it, but still) and pillbox (great new map) cause they're too small.
- map pool reverts to 3w maps where new players need years of experience to catch up with old ones
- less competitive

My points for 5v5:
- a lot more fun than 4v4
- 5v5 pubs > 4v4 pickups
- we get to play stonekeep and finnegans if pickup & league admins finally remove their heads from their asses

I personally prefer 4v4, gives for a newer map pool and better competition. I don't want to play 5v5 and travel back a decade and play all the maps everyone but few new people have 10+ years head start on.

Stonekeep <3

This, 4v4 is kinda competable atm, some teams may cap once or twice vs unknown, with 5v5 noone is ever gonna do that

seems like all 20 active ctfers have voted. you can organise 5x5 now.

Nah sorry I misclicked, I don't even.

Great idea, so many people playing CTF it should be no problem getting an extra player on every team.

people not even playing ctf or quake voting in this thread. just great.

It wouldn't be so disparaging if there were some new 5v5 maps besides Stonekeep.

CTF 5v5 worked great both competitively and for publics when it had /kill enabled.

I think people will not be able to realize how much fun and balanced ctf 5V5 can be if we add /kill to it.

I say if we have to end up with a 4v4 mode, fine, no /kill, keep it as it has always been. But if we have to try 5v5 again, don't ruin it by not adding /kill.

My two cents

!Yes

Is it available in QL?

yes, kill is a server setting in ql

Does it still return the flag? :/

No idea, sorry. I know it used to, don't know if id changed anything.

yep it does ;)

Well, it's a small team, blah blah blah ;)

Hopefully it is on the 2015 to-do list!

No. /kill was pathetic. It required literally no skill whatsoever. You got a bad respawn? Press /kill bind for instant reroll. Fucking skill there...

Yet it could gain you a huge advantage in intercept situations among others. You respawn in your own base, pressing /kill is a no brainer, and you might get lucky and respawn in mid, fragging the efc.

This is fucking retarded, and doesn't fix the underlying problem.

The problem is the lack of player control over your respawn position. It wouldn't be too difficult to code that pressing forward when respawning puts you at one of the forward locations, and pressing back puts you at one of the rear locations.

But the respawn problems get even more apparent because of the terrible respawn locations on some maps like q3wcp1 (hello respawning at ENEMY pu) and q3w3 (hello respawning high in ENEMY base) q3wcp5 (hello 234234234 respawns low, only 2 high) there are probably other/newer maps with similar problems.

In conclusion, /kill was a crappy band aid, and it didn't solve the underlying problem. It still doesn't.

Even if you killed yourself it was time wasted. You could very well spawn 3 times in a bad spot and then that's so much time you could've initially spent finding a weapon and beeing at mid already... What you're saying is that killing yourself ALWAYS gave you a better spawn which is just wrong.

No, what I'm saying is that it didn't take much skill to determine whether to use /kill or not after respawning.

There was a lengthy discussion at the old cpm forums about /kill. Some players wanted to remove the situation where you /kill and respawn in the same spot or a spot close by. It was of course denied, because it's a clumsy "solution".

What you - and those players in the past - wish for, is more control over your respawn in CTF. This issue is taken care of in TDM/1v1 because respawns are dependant on enemy positions etc. But CTF is still random. And Spawn Furthest wouldn't even make sense in CTF because it's not enemy positions that matter, it's the positions of the two flags.

Like I said earlier: It wouldn't be too difficult to code that pressing forward when respawning puts you at one of the forward locations, and pressing back puts you at one of the rear locations.

Those spawns you dislike on p1, w3 and p5 are great. All spawns at home base is what is most problematic about newer maps - ironworks, siberia, reflux, infinity, flourescent - the list goes on. Hail to p1, p9 and w3 for excellent spawns.

edit: example, if the garden spawns didn't exist on p1, teams would go full p9 mode - both defenders out on mid.

Also, TDM and Duels have taken many measures to reduce the randomness of respawns, such as spawn furthest, thus increasing the skill of those modes.

CTF respawns are still full random. /kill is a pathetic "solution".

tdm and ctf have same spawn system

You can enable ./kill on server when you create a server. Fucking noob.

I know ?

Fucking english noob :

since ctf is a teammode i prefer 5on5 because more teamplay and coordination is involved. and its indeed way easier to carry lower skilled players (aka new players we desperatly need) who dont aim that well and therefor have lower damage. /kill should be enabled ye, makes it more dynamic.

4on4 just ends up beeing a massive aimfest with tdm like features.

and seeing the current state of the ctf scene it cant get any worse anyway. so theres nothing to lose tbh.

ps: sucks to see people voting for 4on4 who didnt play any ctf for month or even years. if you like 4on4 that much why arent you playing anymore? stop fucking up that poll

edit: the last 5on5 pickupday was the most active pickupday we had for quite a long time. that should mean something too.

what about the people voting 5v5 that haven't played in months or years, that's fine right?

well, these guys might just stopped playing ctf cause they dont like 4on4 and now voted 5on5 to get back into the game. thats a valid reason, but voting 4on4 and not playing is not.

What if they're voting 4v4 but aren't playing cos there is nothing to play? Or are we using physic guessing skills that have absolutely no value? Don't be a hypocrit.

there are things to play: there is pickup to play. and the last esh cup was 4on4 too. thats like 2 weeks ago and we had 5! teams attending (at least 3 of them mixes). still those guys are nowhere to be seen.

so lets just give it a try, we still can change back if things are getting worse than they are at the moment (which is hardly possible)

Things can only get worse really, 5v5 won't make a change for the better as i said before every team will have to get another player which is close to impossible with the current state of the scene.

As proven by both duel and TDM the problem isn't the teamsize, the problem is the lack of new maps. Not the amount of new maps available but the number actually picked in cups. When admins start picking courtyard, troubled waters and shining forces over infinity, pillbox and cold cathode there's really no point.

something that could help is having a draft-type league where teams are picked by draft captains (kinda like pickup) instead of the mode now where its about getting all the best players in one team. theres no hope for newcomers to compete with unknown and such while there's no lower teams to create enough divisions

I understand what you saying balance-wise, but aim of this league is also to force forming of teams as well, and to force clan wars. We have pickups for drafts and their own cups and we also had draft cups on ESH just before.

The idea for this is to fill the gap where there is no more actual clans/teams playing among themselves, all of it is draft nowadays.

Ofc, divisions will be introduced.

5on5 coz then we can make dota teams as well

too bad I cant rename guild into International one :(

I'm in the same team as Agent! woo

and ash and pavel and Latrommi and cas and many more!

but Agent!!!

4v4

do you even play the mode? fo!

Why not, at least once.

IMO 4v4 is more tdmish, in a sense that if you frag everyone and grab the flag, you've done more than half of the job. It's not rare to see the FC returning to his base without seeing a single enemy. Frags and damage shouldn't be such a deciding factor in a CTF game.

5v5 is a different story. It's more newb-friendly but it also require more teamplay, I'd say. You need at least a bit of help from your teammates if you wanna cap, even if you hit 48% LG and 70% RG.

An attacker (not necessarily a newb) who don't care at all about fragging enemies/making damage and just constantly rush the enemy base will get flamed in a 4v4 game (and righfully), whereas he could be the MVP (by far) in a 5v5 game.

eXodus is probably right, though.

So true!

5vs5!

Definitely 5v5. And it's not lotto at all.

Vertex voted 5v5

Close thread :D

Sti just wants for 5v5 to camouflage his lack of skill in his 30s :D

i prefer 5v5, but only becuase it hides my lack of skill better (C) Shire

as a noob (but slowly getting better!) i have always felt 4v4 feels more professional but that is probably because mistakes will show more and there is more pressure on each person to play their best. more players there are, more likely it is someone else will hit that rail you missed!

i don't know which better for cups and streams or whatever so maybe i shouldn't vote but as a casual public only player i prefer 5v5.

SyncError  ESH CTF Spring Cup to be played in 5v5 ?  CTF 5v5

ALL THESE COMPELLING ARGUMENTS.

Small maps: 4v4
Big maps: 5v5

Beginning of Quake Live was only relatively small CTF maps, so 4v4 fitted better for competitive play.

Now you have some bigger maps, you can try 5v5 and see how it plays out.

I wouldn't want to 5v5 a map like Ironworks or Troubled Waters with current accuracy levels though.

Experienced and high skilled players will still have the upper hand in bigger maps, doesn't matter how you'll try to twist it. Especially if people adopt a 2 att 2 mid 1 def style again.

Just try it out and see if you can fill up a league/cup with teams willing to play 5v5 with a mappool that supports that format. It's not like people are still willing to practice like mad to win a QL cup anymore.

ye Ironworks would need to be thrown out in 5v5,... dunno about troubled waters ? probably the same.

And Pillbox and Infinity

All I have to say:

http://img.pr0gramm.com/2010/12/5v5vs4v4.jpg

A better solution is 4v4 leagues and 5v5 pickups. Pickups are less serious, so why not let more people play? Leagues and scrims have a higher skill level 4v4, for consistency tdm is also 4v4, and it's easier to field teams without needing 2 extra players.

Stonekeep, w2, finnegans, and other big maps are fine for 4s. Comparing the average skill level to 10 years ago (netcode, fps, movement skill, mice, etc), 8 players can easily make a map seem as crowded as 10 did in the past.

Lol like 5on5 would open CTF up for new players, that's just wishful thinking. New players would be quenched by the same thing as now, the ctf-scene. The amount of whine, rage and egoism in there is just not the fertile ground you need to attract new ppl to play it. I still think it is the coolest mod out there if you got the right ppl around but its not like that, so I switched over to TDM and just comparing the pickups it is such a big difference. In TDM the only time I see some whine is when I whine myself just because its so hard to get this CTF behaviour out of your system :P

Says the guy who puts in the 10 year old relic courtyard over infinity.

A guy like you is the perfect proof for what I wrote. Already banned cause raging and misbehaviour almost everywhere.

lol'd

Yes I stopped playing CTFpickups only because people were flaming me there :( (unskilled). I still have a positive win/loss ratio there but I don't like to play in a bad atmosphere...

If anyone flames you there, you are encouraged to talk to an admin. Mindless trashtalk isn't tolerated.

Instead of being bullied away by some individuals from the mode you like, don't hesitate to come to us and we will deal with whatever problem there is.

10min ban for those things is a joke tho

Can't talk for other admins but I never banned someone for as little as 10mins.

I think you should develop a thicker skin and keep playing pickups. In my experience, a skilled player receives more flame than a low skilled. You should try to learn techniques and tactics that experienced players use, this will pay back in any game (especially pub) threefold. Consider whine a strange way of saying you should learn some ctf basics( the stuff that you don't learn in pubs). I was only getting this kind of talk when I just started playing pickups. I'm still noob now, but at least I 'kinda' know what to do.

I haven't played for some months, got a big quake boner right now. See you soon pickup nerds 8 -)

I wonder how do you think making 5v5 PCWs will be more easy to do than 4v4s. I love to see high skilled players voting for 4v4 (like myself), and the public players voting for 5v5.

I agree with someone who said it should be map-related.

ROFL

Which part you disagree with?

Many, paine, vertex, q50, makie, esdf, me... Voted 5v5 and are skilled enough :)

People I meant were phoenx, funnyb, abso, dem0n. Those are pros in my eyes, and sorry but noone from your list. Ofc skilled enough is true.

I still don't understand how would 5v5 be easier to handle than 4v4. Ever seen ctfpickup lately? If we can't even add up for a 4v4, how will things look like at 5v5?

I can't see many differences between the players I listed with your list. Also dem0n said he is in favour of 5v5 if /kill is added.
CTF has been 5v5 for a decade. When noone was playing Q3 (apart from cpm), Q3CTF was still active with cups running, and it was hard to move ctfers to QL.

We should compare how many 4v4 and 5v5 games are being played in the same period of time.
Its true that the playerbase is smaller than 4 years ago, but CB CTF had 9 divisions when it was 5v5, now its basically dead.

Dunno if 5v5 will bring more players, but there's nothing more to do to try to increase the playerbase.

difference is that you listed ctf players - he said funnyb :D

Hm, doesn't really matter... I think what matters most is exactly the teamsize. I ask again: if you cannot find any ctf practice with 4 people, why do you think it will get better with +2 players? it will be even harder to organise, plan, and play. I've been clanleader multiple times, and I know this will be a very bad idea :\

well, following your logic, lets just make ctf 3v3. or better 2v2. heck, lets go with 1v1, wouldn't that be nice ?

ctf is dead mode and need some form of ressurection. if 5v5 is what it takes to even give slightest of glimpses, then I would say its worth a shot.

Hehe :) yeah... It is worth a shot, I'm curious. Never thought CTF is dead because it's not 5v5 though, interesting idea :)

I didn't say its dead BECAUSE of it. But it can be a positive change that is needed.

demon voted 5v5, funnyb is not even playing qlctf.

also i don't see why it has to be "pros" to vote for something. this ain't about who's more or less skilled, it's about what's more fun and what else can we try to live up the ctf scene which has been dead as fuck for almost a year now.

Nope, demon voted 4v4, check it up :) I have more respect for pros than guys who play only on public 5v5 servers only, but this doesn't really matter, I have to agree.

On other side, more players are playing on public ctf servers (5v5), than at the pickup (4v4), but I think that is because you have to PAY for a premium membership. For Quake3 you only had to pay once.

Imo that's the reason why ctf is dead nowadays, not the size of the teams. But then why is everybody playing TDMpickup literally 24/7?
That is 4v4 also.

This is a very serious and annoyng problem in my eyes. Why is CS so popular? It's fps like quake, yet 100x more people play it. We need much more drastic steps than just changing the teamsize. I don't know how could quake community become as huge as CS's. We need to do more LANs, prize competitions? Anybody has an idea?

i don't think ctfpickup problem is paying for quake. in my opinion there are too many restrictive rules and too many bullshit stuff you can get banned or locked for (like getting a sub if you don't like the map). admins seem uninterested and don't pay attention to what's going on (aside from winz who has been a lot more active lately). on top of that all, some of the admins have bigger ego problems and trolling desire than most of players that got labeled as the shitmakers. oh yeah, map pool. the archaic map pool. why is there even a map pool? are we competing in eurocup that we have to have only 5-6 maps to pick from?

tl;dr expectations of pickup don't meet reality. people who want to have fun in pickups don't have fun because there's people flaming and insulting everyone. people who want to get some decent games in form of teamplay and people sticking to their positions also get disappointed because there's always a few guys whose ego is too big to play their position or play for the team.

as far as cs goes... it's because cs has a more modern concept of gameplay than quake + cs is a TEAM game while quake (ql especially) was promoted as the premier 1v1 game + cs:go actually had valve backing the game.

while you might have more respect for people that play leagues & pickups you should also understand that they're minority of ctf players.

On other side, more players are playing on public ctf servers (5v5), than at the pickup (4v4), but I think that is because you have to PAY for a premium membership.

may be most of them just dont know what pickup is?

But then why is everybody playing TDMpickup literally 24/7?

tdm is easier to start play than ctf. "friendly" ctf community.

I don't know how could quake community become as huge as CS's. We need to do more LANs, prize competitions? Anybody has an idea?

first of all ql needs more than 1,5 developers to make any kind of matchmaking for duel, tdm, cfg. pickup's using IRC (mostly ugly default mIRC or webchat) is stone age.

Nope, they know there is a pickup, but when I asked them to come and add, they said no, because it's too serious and some people there are lamers.. or something like that, can't remember.

5v5 ctf in public is pure FFA, it's much more serious and coordinated when it is 4v4 rarely.

I don't understand why tdm is easier to start. :o

IRC is stoneage? Let's compare what and how CS communiy does! It's bigger and harder to do than just changing 4v4 and 5v5, but you know what? Quality improvements need more time.

Why do you wonder? Isn't ctf clan war scene completely dead for so long ? Change can only help, there is no down from this point. Wouldn't you agree ?

You already got a small scene with no motivation for pickups and also the last CB Opencup was pretty empty. Not even the Div 1 final got played in the end because they didn't cared.
And now you want to change to 5on5 which needs 2 more players and makes most of the new maps not playable anymore? That is a step into the wrong direction imo.

You didn't answer my question.

No I wouldn't agree. Yes a change is needed but I don't think changing to 5 on 5 will solve any of the problems CTF has.

Fine. However, it's irrelevant.

Lol why u ask then?

I like to know what ppl think, no matter how much they are clueless.

Lol u don't even play yourself and call me clueless, you are funny. don't bother to ask for help again dude

butthurt much ?

If you think arrogance is the right answer just don't bother asking me again

Ask you what ? This thread is made to see opinion of most ppl who play quake, ctf primarily. Different opinions exist, but you feel butt hurt when I say your opinion is irrelevant in this case. As it is.

I already know what cup Im gonna run.

But the real problem is this:

You and half of others who voted 4v4 will not play 5v5 out of spite. Now you tell me who's arrogant here. Instead, all of you should play 5v5 cup again and give it a chance and make it work. Make some new ppl want to try it. But we all know that's not gonna happen.

So good riddance CTF, was nice knowing you.

And you just arguing for the sake of it, or you really don't have a clue.

I feel offended cause of the way you chose to reply. Saying "your opinion is irrelevant" and "you are clueless" is just a poor way to answer me just giving my opinion.

And now you even think you know what I and others will do. Thats just ridiculous. I will play every cup and league out there with my team like I did the last 2 years, aslong we get enough players which now could be problem smart ass.

I don't know how to answer this without offending you again, but if you really think problem with 5v5 is getting 2 more players, I got nothing more to say to you.

1. Look at your last 4on4 cup you made, 6 teams added, 24 players were already hard to motivate. Now tell me getting more player isn't a problem
2. I never said it is the only problem like you are able to read in other posts here....

1. Hard to motivate because its dead mode and need resurrection. Hence, the change. Now I know for a fact there are players who would play in a 5v5 cup, that just won't bother playing in 4v4. So, no it's not a problem and you are missing the point completely.

2. Well so far I see from you and few others that it is the only problem, or at least that's your main argument in this thread. Feel free to tell me other problems with 5v5 besides 2 more players.

- The same amount of players the might come back to play 5v5 will also stop because of 5v5. So I dont see the amount of players increasing.
- You can't play 5v5 on most of the new maps so you can forget Pillbox, Infinity, Cold Cathode and also Ironworks. Therefore you could play Finnegans, Stonekeep again but that is just a step back imo.
- And I don't know see a reason why 5v5 should attract more new people then 4v4 because like I mentioned before newer players don't get scared away by 4v4 being to difficult but by the amount of rager and flamers in the community

infinity and cold cathode will probably play better 5v5 imo

Well that's your opinion and you are completely entitled to it. However, denying change based on your own asumptions (or anyone elses for that matter) does not justify dropping 5v5 idea completely, considering the state of ctf at the moment.

Simple as that.

Who said i would deny it? I said will play CTF leagues no matter what . I just game my opinion because of the negative aspects I see that is all.

I really wonder why people think 5on5 will change anything about the current state of CTF? You might be able to pull back some old players that stopped playing cause of 4on4 but I think the same amout might also quit cause of 5on5.
I mean I bet 8/10 players that tried out ctf-pickup for example stopped because of the flame and hate and not because it is to difficult. If people still think it's the right choice to threat new players like shit in such a small scene then CTF deserves to die, as simple as it is.

Wasn't there an attempt to swtich to CTF 5v5 a few years ago for a similar reason? I stopped playing at that time, so maybe someone could enlighten me why it didnt work out back then.

afaik during that time only 5v5 maps that were available were japan, troubled waters and stonekeep, and rest of the maps were useless in the mode.

out of curiosity, how was siberia? i hate it in 4v4, but would like to try it in 5v5

tbh seeing how japan just got in to ql at that time, 90% of the games were p1 :D

i don't really think the times we voted siberia went into 2 digits. but yeah, my guess is siberia is as horrible in 5v5 as in 4v4.

Siberia ftw. Most fun map to attack on.

Come on guys :) lets try not to be hostile towards each other and instead try to focus on the positives of what we all believe would be the best way forward, rather than trying to just attack other peoples opinions.......

A friend of mine left me an offline message a few days ago, naming all the old clans that used to compete, along with names of the players in them teams, and it just made me realise just how much the scene has deteriorated since then :( its really sad to see

I'd absolutely love to see the scene build itself into something even close to this again one day, but if we are to see anything even close to that, we all need to work together imo, whether its 4v4 or 5v5.

Yea well.. fuck you and your opinion!

yeah let's make TDM 5v5 aswell since it's just as dead. Both have been dying being played 4v4 which must be the cause!

why would you, in gods name, mention TDM in this thread ? That's just weak argument right there and has nothing to do with what's discussed here.

all i see is blah blah blah blah :)

And all I see is "CTF gonna magically become more active because of 5v5" :/

The biggest proof that 4v4 CTF is not working and is probably never going to work again is that you haven't been able to get a pcw in an evening for nearly 2 years.

What is there to lose by trying 5on5, really? :)

So your proof is you cant get a prac going because there is obviously a lack of players and you think when you change the amount of players you need that will change anything? You prolly get lets say 12 old players back to playing CTF that stopped, what would mean maybe 2 more teams and that is already pretty optimistic. Don't you think the same amount of players that were at least competing in leagues and cups only on 4v4 is pissed and will stop playing? I mean you have the change the mappool, the gamedynamic, the tactics and so the guys who quitted and now might be coming back even got an advantage. So actually for ppl who started on 4v4 and kept playing, this will be a big piece of crap

Agreeing with you.

Going to 5on5 can't make things worse than they are now.

spenzer is arguing for the sake of arguing

Seems like you understood nothing Zoot, no suprise

Considering competition and the general CTF scene is dead at the moment, keeping 4v4 for the sake of teams not having to sacrifice the skills you've acquired over your training period - kinda meaningless when you have no one to compete against. If you were any good at CTF then you'd adapt to 5on5 in little to no time.

I guess you understand nothing to no surprise either? Oo

When I started a CTF tourney a while ago and considered making it 5v5 because I wanted to try out some things teams whined at me that they wont compete in that case aso. Now it seems everybody assumes a load of players will come back if you switch back to 5v5.
This is not duel, its not all about competition. If you want to get a team mode vital again its not about stepping back a few years. But ye go on and go back to 5v5 so maybe a handful former div 1 players come back so you might a halfway stacked Div 1 while everything below decays. Get back all the guys that gave up on CTF, that will lead to a much more active scene pretty sure.

this is exactly what happened with 4v4, 4v4 is a div 1 thing which killled of div 2-4

edit: a combination of factors contributed, teamsize is only part of the problem ofc

Once you turn to 5v5, CTF will revive. I mean, we have played Q3 CTF for re or less 10 years and even when QL came out, we had enough cups running in Q3 with enough teams. And not to mention #spontanctf where we had games all day long.

Now, look at 4v4 CTF. It is obvious that a change is needed.

sure, change to 5on5 and ppl will magically appear and play ctf again....

magically :DDDD

Ok, time is money... 4v4 in this vote can't win, so when do we apply the changes?

while we are on it; why not add space ctf maps to the rotation? Should also give a huge boost considering how many love to play them on public.

:DDD

Do VQ3 CTF games still end 1-0 after two overtimes?

No, pickup games end 8-0 because 4v4 its so unbalanced when a nonctf player adds. Competitively it doesnt matter because there are no games.

5x5 won
throw the cup already so we see if something can change or we're left for dead (no pun intended).

Can't believe I had mistakenly voted for 4v4 and none told me before today.

Fegs really.

What a noob :))

5v5 is way more fun and allows for more pure ctf gameplay; its way more accessible for newer players as well, which will be most visible with pickups.

5vs5 is all defense and is more easy to play since there's 1 more player to do the work and a lot of the ctf maps are balanced for 4vs4, adding 2 more players will be like tdm (1 min waiting for a gun)
4vs4 > 5vs5

lol

The map pool will have to change (no ironworks for example) but that's it really.

How would 3v3 ctf look on the comp. maps? More time for movement, but also more time to defend vs. a single attacker? More stacked players in attack, better way to synchronize attacks?

maps wxs1 and ctf1 and its fun to p lay 3v3 :DD

Hi,

I was lazy to read every post, some were very long but i could read the Q50"s post ... and from what i've tested yesterday evening, i can say that 5V5 is funnier than 4V4.
We played 3 games in pickup with makie/mastermind/pyton/flame/esdf and it was really funny !
There was a long time ago that i didn't play with that level of fun, and it was because of the 5V5 format :)

So, for people (like me) who don't have an impressing aim, we can take advantage of 5V5 and play with a real teamplay !
And btw Q50, playing 5V5 or 4V4, if you have a strong aim vs you, i swear that you have no chance to win ... like Mobach's or oMg or S? team who had good railers.

So, i push it for 5V5 !!!!

Never done 5on5 so can't say.

I do enjoy the 4on4 mode though, it does not allow you to slack, because of a smaller team :)

Hey fellas calm down. All the whiners, djeeez....
5v5 is the ultimate CTF mode and always has been for years.
Hey fellas, its protime

so as result we have ctf5v5 replaced by ca2v2?